Yes, your color printer is spying on you

[Gordon Burditt]

The serial number and the date.

Once you leave the realm of the home PC world most printers and and almost
all copier have this ability to tell time on their own.


It's... "normal"?

At work here they don't seem to even set the clock on the phone
switch accurately, and that gets displayed on most every phone in
the place. The same goes for wall clocks. And fax machines.
The computers only have the right time because of NTP.

On a copier, nobody is going to notice that the clock is off,
even if they know it HAS a clock.

From the PC it's connected to.

What software on the PC does that? A generic driver for a printer
isn't going to know how to set time on a large variety of printers
that MIGHT be connected, and it doesn't have a way of guessing
which one really is connected.

From the person who maintains that copier.

People MAINTAIN copiers? You mean some company management actually
PAY for stuff like service contracts?

FWIW, there's some very valid reasons for having copiers and other
standalone hardware know accurate times and dates. Businesses generally
like to keep track on such things, for instance.

So what does a business do with the clock that's useful? The copier
produces a log of when it is used? And perhaps who used it, as
identified by some code or key?

Please try to think outside the "PC-Home-User" box.

I'm thinking mostly of the setup at work. This is a place that
doesn't ask you for a cost center code when you need a paperclip.

Gordon L. Burditt

 

[Gordon Burditt]

If you don't register your printer with the manufacturer, how is the

government going to identify that serial number back to you? At most,
they can associate that serial number with a physical printer, but if no

No, they can associate everything you printed with everything ELSE
you printed on the same printer.

one knows where the printer with that serial number is located, your
privacy is preserved.

Not if you ever print anything with your name on it. If that bomb
threat was printed on the same printer you used for wedding
invitations, or tax returns, or a letter to the editor, they likely
have enough probable cause to get a search warrant to find the
printer in your possession. If they find enough personal stuff
printed on that printer, they may not even NEED to find the physical
printer to convict you.

Gordon L. Burditt

 

[Jeffrey F. Bloss]

Close, but unfortunately he has a long ways to go to reach
adolescence.

Yeah, I figured that out already.

--
Hand crafted on October 20, 2005 at 18:56:10 -0400

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

 

[Jeffrey F. Bloss]

Dont get it new, get it where no one will ever know
you because you only went there the once, and there
is nothing special about you that can be used to identify
you, get someone else to get it for you, etc etc etc.

And when you go to resupply these machines, and find you're locked into
dealing with OEM's... who demand serial numbers...

Lemme guess. You didn't bother to look at the list of known problem
machines, and you're completely clueless about them even if you did?

Don't bother, rhetorical question.

[This space reserved for Pee Wee Herman "Is not" imitation]

Not a shred of rocket science required at all.

Why no. We're talking printers and copiers. Maybe on your planet these
things are used for transport, but here on earth they're just office tools.

Thats anyone with a clue.

Do you even know any people like this, because *you* couldn't get a clue in
a room full of horny clues doing the clue mating dance with clue musk
rubbed all over your body, in the middle of clue mating season. On payday.

Hardly any of them care either, most arent that mindlessly paranoid.

Give the crystal ball a shot of Windex there Swami, it's apparently a bit
smudged from you drooling all over it.

The class of customer who uses most of the tools on the list certainly *do*
care about security and privacy. Not so much for the individual, but for
their businesses.

And have enough of a clue to do things
differently if they are doing something illegal.

Why are you waffling to "illegal"? Who besides you even gives a shit about
criminals? We're talking about the folk who have their privacy invaded
because of anal retentive political "solutions" to a social problem.

Pathetic, really.

"I know you are but what am I?"

Spend much time in dimly lit movie theaters too there Pee Wee?

Useless to determine the individual if that individual cares.

In your egocentric universe that extends exactly as far as your fat little
arms can flail for the next community provided Twinkie maybe people don't.
In the real world where we adults navigate *our* lives in never ending
quests to find new and better ways to feed your welfare ass, it's a quite
different story.

I now permit you to have the last word. Enjoy.

--
Hand crafted on October 20, 2005 at 19:01:11 -0400

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote:

<reams of your puerile shit any 2 year old
could leave for dead flushed where it belongs>

I see.

Another lie, you've clearly wanked yourself completely blind.

On your planet bank accounts and drivers licenses are issued to
people with no ID. And those things are secure without them.

Separate issue entirely to whether its an absolute
necessity to do those particular transactions that way, liar.

Even someone as stupid as you should have noticed that
some countrys dont bother with personal ID for those.
Its clearly possible, nothing like an absolute necessity.

Oh. I didn't realize the EFF just made all this up. Sorry.

They never said a word about PERSONAL ID, liar.

The list of printer/copier manufacturers they've published will
no doubt be taking legal action soon. Clear case of liable.

Pathetic, really.

Oh wait... at least one of those companies
have already verified the information as true.

Lying again, with PERSONAL ID.

Ooops.

You've just wet your pants, again ? Your problem.

What's your street address? Hell, just an email will do.

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to work
that one out for yourself, if someone was actually stupid
enough to lend you a seeing eye dog and a white cane.

You can install the stuff yourself and at *least* be further
ahead of the game than unsuspecting printer buyers.

Pathetic, really.

Great! What's that address again?

Pathetic, really.

"There's no place like home... there's no place like home...."

<snicker>

Pathetic, really.

Find that 2 year old, quick.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

And when you go to resupply these machines, and find you're
locked into dealing with OEM's... who demand serial numbers...

Pity about the machines being discussed in the top para, wanker.

Lemme guess. You didn't bother to look
at the list of known problem machines,

None of those are relevant to what was clearly
being discussed in the top para, wanker.

Why no. We're talking printers and copiers.

Lying again. Read the top para again, liar.

<reams of your desperate wanking flushed where it belongs>

 

[Jeffrey F. Bloss]

At work here they don't seem to even set the clock on the phone
switch accurately, and that gets displayed on most every phone in
the place. The same goes for wall clocks. And fax machines.
The computers only have the right time because of NTP.

I'd say your shop is atypical, but I have seen similar myself.

I use to work for Xerox, and I've spent most of my life working in or around
businesses like Grumman Allied, Homerwood, PPG, Channelock, smaller
manufacturing (tool and die) shops, lawyers offices, hospitals, county
library systems, court houses, police stations and city offices, oil
industry logging and perforating operations, forrestry services, jewelers,
card shops, mom and pop type computer stores and public internet access
points, and even one ISP. I'd say off the top of my head, about 85% of
these consider properly configured equipment an issue. That includes having
proper times and dates displayed when needed.

In some cases it's a primary concern. Like medical and legal applications
for instance. And in some cases it's absolutely essential. It's also
essential in many cases where a business has a service contract with their
copier or printer vendor.

What software on the PC does that? A generic driver for a printer
isn't going to know how to set time on a large variety of printers
that MIGHT be connected, and it doesn't have a way of guessing
which one really is connected.

Most printer drivers are hardware centric if not hardware specific. That's
why they're product specific drivers. And in many cases we're not talking
about "drivers" in the home user sense, but full blown networking
applications.

People MAINTAIN copiers? You mean some company management actually
PAY for stuff like service contracts?

Many do. In fact most, once you get out of the realm of smaller shops or
shops where paper documents aren't as important as they might be in a more
"office" environment. And with some manufacturer's brands and models it's
absolutely essential. You have no choices.

So what does a business do with the clock that's useful? The copier
produces a log of when it is used? And perhaps who used it, as
identified by some code or key?

Track workloads and document creation times, date stamp hard copy and
electronic transmissions like faxes, schedule jobs, calculate completion
and delivery times, help document/manage QC, schedule maintenance, you
know... things that might revolve around or be affected by time.

--
Hand crafted on October 20, 2005 at 21:29:10 -0400

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

 

[Ed]

No it isnt, at most its recording what printer
a particular document was created on.

That's bad enough isn't it?

 

[Ed]

Still not spying on you.

I'm funny that way... datamining (or enabling by adding tracking) = spying
<snip>

 

[Ed]

Never ever said anything like that. I JUST said that
that particular printer clearly isnt SPYING on anyone.


Different issue entirely.

On the contrary, it's exactly the same "issue", only a larger scale.

No you cant.

The printer manufacturers did exactly that, as did the Adobe Photoshop
people. Hrm...Adobe = Spyware? Maybe.

 

[\[Anon\] Anon User]

-----BEGIN TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-----
Message-type: plaintext

How does a printer, or standalone copier, know the date and time?
Why would anyone bother to set it accurately?

If it's network-connected it can probably find out, say, from a
server at the printer manufacturer. If it's a low-end printer
connected through a parallel port to a computer, how would it
get the date? If it's a standalone copier, same issue?

Gordon L. Burditt

What's to keep the mfg from including a clock chip and a lithium battery?

how about one of those chips with the on-board battery? It won't last forever
that's true, but it'll easily outlast the device it's installed in.

Y'know, there's a reason the things don't last as long as they used to.



-----END TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-----

 

[\[Anon\] Anon User]

-----BEGIN TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-----
Message-type: plaintext

It's not just the government. These yellow 'signatures' have been
decoded by other groups now, and that information will soon become
public knowledge. Everybody will be able to determine the source of a
document and take whatever retribution against the author they like.

a great argument for using remailers instead of paper.


-----END TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-----

 

[Gordon Burditt]

I use to work for Xerox, and I've spent most of my life working in or around

businesses like Grumman Allied, Homerwood, PPG, Channelock, smaller
manufacturing (tool and die) shops, lawyers offices, hospitals, county
library systems, court houses, police stations and city offices, oil
industry logging and perforating operations, forrestry services, jewelers,
card shops, mom and pop type computer stores and public internet access
points, and even one ISP. I'd say off the top of my head, about 85% of
these consider properly configured equipment an issue. That includes having
proper times and dates displayed when needed.

But if the copier has a clock with *NO KNOWN FUNCTION*, who would
bother to set it? If they even knew it existed? Now, if they were
actually using a log of who copied how much, or used a fax transmission
log often, or whatever, they'd worry more about it. But I don't
recall working at or seeing a place where you had to identify
yourself to the copier to make copies, and just a time log of copies
made with no added data seems rather worthless.

In some cases it's a primary concern. Like medical and legal applications
for instance. And in some cases it's absolutely essential.

Medical applications read funny squares of yellow dots in a code
that's only recently been cracked?

It's also
essential in many cases where a business has a service contract with their
copier or printer vendor.

Why? Are you saying the copier's clock is the only thing capable
of determining when the warranty or service contract expires?

Most printer drivers are hardware centric if not hardware specific. That's
why they're product specific drivers. And in many cases we're not talking
about "drivers" in the home user sense, but full blown networking
applications.

Especially on the network-capable printers, I don't ever recall
having to install a product-specific driver on any computer that
sent print jobs to the printer. Or even tell anything what model
printer it was, beyond "Postscript". Good thing, too, since I doubt
there'd be an available driver for a DEC Alpha. Of course, if it's
got network access to the internet, it can get time from NTP.

Many do. In fact most, once you get out of the realm of smaller shops or
shops where paper documents aren't as important as they might be in a more
"office" environment. And with some manufacturer's brands and models it's
absolutely essential. You have no choices.


Track workloads and document creation times, date stamp hard copy and
electronic transmissions like faxes, schedule jobs, calculate completion
and delivery times, help document/manage QC, schedule maintenance, you
know... things that might revolve around or be affected by time.

Are you saying that there are copiers (not computer printers or fax
machines) that automatically stick the date and time on the copy
when it is made? In a form that's actually human-readable, not
some secret square of yellow dots? I've never heard of a copier
having that feature. Fax machines, yes, copiers, no. And I'd
consider it a real problem if it couldn't be turned off for at least
some copying jobs like, say, advertising flyers.

I don't see how a time stamp produced by a copier (not fax machine)
on the copy is going to help in scheduling jobs or maintenance, or
help in managing QC. Yes, having a time stamp on when you sent something
is useful.

Gordon L. Burditt

 

[Logan Shaw]

But if the copier has a clock with *NO KNOWN FUNCTION*, who would
bother to set it? If they even knew it existed?

It's easy to make a clock that sets itself from radio signals.

Now, if they were
actually using a log of who copied how much, or used a fax transmission
log often, or whatever, they'd worry more about it. But I don't
recall working at or seeing a place where you had to identify
yourself to the copier to make copies,

Really? I've worked at lots of places where you had to have a copy
code to operate the copier. Usually that would just charge it to a
particular project, but it's still more tracking than just a log of
what time copies were made, because presumably each code is only
known to a small number of people.

- Logan

 

[Rod Speed]

Gordon Burditt wrote

It's easy to make a clock that sets itself from radio signals.

Its not actually that easy to ensure it can always do that.

In spades without a decent antenna.

Really? I've worked at lots of places where you had to have a copy code to
operate the copier. Usually that would just charge it to a particular
project, but it's still more tracking than just a log of what time copies were
made, because presumably each code is only known to a small number of people.

Or maybe its actually known to quite a few.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

No more yellow dots and...

no more reds, greens, yellows, browns, oranges, etc.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

You are assuming that there is no system to trace the printer from
manufacturer to dealer to retailer to consumer.

Products like photocopiers and color laser printers could easily be
traced. Some computer stores scan some items' serial numbers in at the
till along with the SKU/UPC and it appears on my receipt.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

"your printer is embedding it's serial number and the date into each
color print it makes" hardly sounds as good as "your printer is spying
on you" does it?

;-)

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Rod,

Couldn't disagree more.

1) some printer will be identifiable to a specific individual or
certainly narrow down the possibilities, and "suspicion is 98/100ths of
the law"

2) moot... just because other things we begrudgingly accept also violate
our privacy doesn't excuse a new one. Further, there are specific
benefits associated with many of the things you mention, (like ID for
bank accounts, cameras in ATMs, ID for license plates) which either
offer the individual added features or protect them from types of fraud
however, this particular type of tracking mainly offers potential
advantage to law enforcement or others who wish to use the information
in an abusive manner.

3) Laws change as do those in power and those who enforce the law.
Something that isn't a crime today can easily be made into one tomorrow.
You have a naive world view and you obviously have never lived under
an oppressive government or understood how tracking information can be
used in illegitimate ways.

4) How intrusive it is we will have to wait and see. It depends on how
and who uses the information.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

And unfortunately, much of what it does have to say, it does on yellowed
paper. One of the problems with "rights" documents is they tend to take
a few hundred years before they get updated to catch up with the last
few hundred years. ;-)

Art