Microsoft shortens Windows name

[The Chief]

Not in this house : It wrecks the flavour. Apparently the ideal temp
somewhere around 90C.

Cheers,
Rupert

And if you took the time to calculate the equivalent temperature you
would find that it is almost exactly 194F!!!!

 

[Wes Newell]

Nope, I do what all reasonable people do. Swap insurance cards and move
on. ...no reason for road-rage. ...no reason to call in the
ambulance-chasers.

But sadly you will still have to file suit later. I know this from
experience. Twice in the last 15 years I was in a severe car accidents.
The first I was rear ended by a woman putting on makeup while driving. The
second was almost a headon when a chinese national driving an Avis rental
car ran a left turn light into me. Both times I just asked for damages
and medical expensives. Both time they offered about 50% of that. I had to
sue both times. In the end they ended up spending 4 times what I had
originally asked for. So why do they do this? Simple,. Most people need
the money to purchase a new car, pay the bills, etc., and are desperate
for money, and take what they can get. I guess I was one of the few that
wasn't. And when I contacted my insurance agent (also a friend), he told
me I'd have to sue Avis to get the money. He siad they were one of the
worst ones using these kind of tactics and never pay/settle until they've
been sued. I pay cash for new cars just so I don't have to get collision
insurance. I could go on and on with examples, but I'm ready to drop all
this and get back on topic.

 

[Rupert Pigott]

keith wrote:

[SNIP]

My, you lefty-loosers do like to lie.

Being an ignorant prat leaves you few chances for redemption.

The only one that comes to mind right now is that you could
improve yourself by sucking on the end of a loaded 12 guage
as you pull the trigger.

Best Wishes,
Rupert

 

[Rupert Pigott]

And if you took the time to calculate the equivalent temperature you
would find that it is almost exactly 194F!!!!

Let us review the two sentences I was responding to that you snipped :

"Water boils at 212F or 100C. So, when you brew a pot of coffee at home
the water that is run over the coffee grounds is initially 212F!"

So ~90C is the temp I aim at when I'm *brewing* the coffee, I serve it
cooler. I never saw the point in burnt finger tips.

Cheers,
Rupert

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

But the hazard is *not* hidden.

The extent of it is. If it's horribly worse (third degree
burns) than expected for the same incident (it wasn't a full
carafe spilled) then that additional hazard _is_ hidden.

I surely hope your mother didn't raise you to be stupid
enough to put *any* coffee cup in your crotch.

Of course not! However, the risks I will take while handling
coffee are based on my perceived hazards of accidents.
I handle sulfuric acid much more carefully than coffee.
It costs time, but the conseuqneces are so much worse that
the time is well spent.

...and I thought you to be the "reasonable man".

Thanks. And the exception proves the rule!
Misery is moderation in excess.
Happiness is excess in moderation.

-- Robert

 

[keith]

But sadly you will still have to file suit later. I know this from
experience. Twice in the last 15 years I was in a severe car accidents.
The first I was rear ended by a woman putting on makeup while driving. The
second was almost a headon when a chinese national driving an Avis rental
car ran a left turn light into me. Both times I just asked for damages
and medical expensives.

I've had several accidents. In each case I've been taken care of by
*my* insurance. They might have sued the others, but didn't because the
insurance companies got it all together. The best reason not to go cheap
on insurance.

I was once hit by an uninsured motorist (ran stop-sign, no license, no
insurance, swapped plates, DWAI, and on parole from the state penn; can I
pick 'em or what?). I got not a nickle out of the nitwit. My insurance
paid.

Both time they offered about 50% of that. I had to
sue both times. In the end they ended up spending 4 times what I had
originally asked for. So why do they do this? Simple,. Most people need
the money to purchase a new car, pay the bills, etc., and are desperate
for money, and take what they can get. I guess I was one of the few that
wasn't. And when I contacted my insurance agent (also a friend), he told
me I'd have to sue Avis to get the money. He siad they were one of the
worst ones using these kind of tactics and never pay/settle until
they've been sued. I pay cash for new cars just so I don't have to get
collision insurance. I could go on and on with examples, but I'm ready
to drop all this and get back on topic.

I'm not saying that I'd never sue (I may be going there on what I
consider a consumer fraud issue), just that it's a bad first recourse. It
certanly bad policy to make it into the lottery it *has* become. Take
care of your own, before looking for someone else to take care of you.

 

[keith]

The extent of it is. If it's horribly worse (third degree
burns) than expected for the same incident (it wasn't a full
carafe spilled) then that additional hazard _is_ hidden.

I disagree. It is *well* known that a cup of coffee will burn your
genitals if it is spilled on them. Why then *place* the hot cup between
one's legs? IMO, she should have gotten *nothing*, simply because of
common stupidity (common sense failed).

Of course not! However, the risks I will take while handling coffee are
based on my perceived hazards of accidents. I handle sulfuric acid much
more carefully than coffee. It costs time, but the conseuqneces are so
much worse that the time is well spent.

Exactly. You know that even 150F coffee will burn your genitals, so you
handle any suspected hot water with care.

Thanks.

Well, I did forget the smiley there. ;-) <-- see!

And the exception proves the rule! Misery is moderation in
excess. Happiness is excess in moderation.

Sadness is screwing around with dangerously hot liquids like they're so
much soda-pop!

Woe be it to the plantiff who's jurry I serve on!

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

I disagree. It is *well* known that a cup of coffee will burn
your genitals if it is spilled on them. Why then *place* the hot
cup between one's legs? IMO, she should have gotten *nothing*,
simply because of common stupidity (common sense failed).

Ah, but I see a world of difference between a first degree burn
(that everyone gets and copes with) and a third-degree burn
that requires medical treatment, debridement (ouch!) and grafts.
I've never had one. Have you?

Exactly. You know that even 150F coffee will burn your
genitals, so you handle any suspected hot water with care.

I handle boiling water with more care than a hot liquid I
expect to be cool enough to drink. I _have_ tasted McD coffee.
Not only is it scalding hot, but it tastes of burnt mud.
Fallout from the Boston Tea Party.

Sadness is screwing around with dangerously hot liquids
like they're so much soda-pop!

Real sadness is not knowing they're hotter than is
suitable for drinking.

Woe be it to the plantiff who's jurry I serve on!

This goes without saying! Of course, lawyers routinely exclude
engineers from juries. They do not want anyone capable of
thinking, logic or possessing independant knowledge.

-- Robert

 

[David Schwartz]

The fact that consumers were not aware that the coffee was so hot that
it could produce burns simply demonstrates that consumers, in general,
are complete morons. But apparently we must protect people from their
own stupidity, or else we get frivolous lawsuits like this particular
case.

If we permit the assumption that the vast majority of people are morons,
our entire legal system goes away, based as it is upon a jury of ordinary
people. It is a common, elitist attitude that "the masses are asses",
however experience will show that this is most definitely not true. The
average person is, well, average. About half of the people are dumber than
that and about half smarter.

Try polling a random selection of, say, 20 people. Ask them what they
think would most likely happen if a person spilled hot coffee in their lap.

And note that nobody claimed that "consumers were not aware that coffee
was so hot that it could produce burns". What was claimed was that consumers
were not aware that coffee from McDonald's was so much hotter than the
standard coffee serving temperature that a spill could cause third degree
burns requiring hospitalization for eight days. And this wasn't just
claimed, it was backed up with evidence.

DS

 

[keith]

Ah, but I see a world of difference between a first degree burn
(that everyone gets and copes with) and a third-degree burn
that requires medical treatment, debridement (ouch!) and grafts.
I've never had one. Have you?

That's not the issue at all. If the coffee were "only" 150F it would
still be hot enough to get the respect of the "reasonable man". Not to
mention that 180F coffee is *not* uncommon.

I handle boiling water with more care than a hot liquid I expect to be
cool enough to drink.

When I buy coffee from a shop such as McD's, D-n-D, or even our company
cafeteria it's *never* cool enough to just drink. Sip perhaps, after
several minutes. Hot coffee is not at all unusual. Of course everyone
now has a disclaimer, as our cafeteria: "Coffee served at HOT (sic)
temperatures".

I _have_ tasted McD coffee. Not only is it
scalding hot, but it tastes of burnt mud. Fallout from the Boston Tea
Party.


Real sadness is not knowing they're hotter than is suitable for
drinking.


This goes without saying! Of course, lawyers routinely exclude
engineers from juries. They do not want anyone capable of thinking,
logic or possessing independant knowledge.

Hmm, Boston Tea Party... It is indeed CRUD (Charles River Underwater
Debris). ;-)

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

That's not the issue at all. If the coffee were "only" 150F it
would still be hot enough to get the respect of the "reasonable
man". Not to mention that 180F coffee is *not* uncommon.

Of course coffee at 150'F gets respect. But coffee at
180'F gets more! McD had to special-order and armtwist the
coffeemaker mfr, so I think it _was_ uncommon before them,
but they might have broken a dam.

When I buy coffee from a shop such as McD's, D-n-D, or even
our company cafeteria it's *never* cool enough to just drink.
Sip perhaps, after several minutes. Hot coffee is not at all
unusual.

It's a question of degree! Many of the poorer coffees really
are still served too hot to sip within 10 minutes of sitting
in a closed foam/paper cup. The keep-warm temperature was
probably designed hot enough to warm up a heavy ceramic cup.

-- Robert

 

[Walt]

Actually, the asses were McD for its execs being dumb enough
to have documented all they did. They really hung themselves,
and the plaintiffs had to do very little.

The McD execs documented, in writting and saved, that they knew
customers would get burned, and that these people were insignificant
and totally worthless.

The jury reacted more to that, then the pain and suffering the
"victim" endured. The only way the jury had, was to make an
award that wasn't insignificant and worthless; one that would
be seen by the stockholders in the company's next bottom line.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

The McD execs documented, in writting and saved, that they
knew customers would get burned, and that these people were
insignificant and totally worthless.

The jury reacted more to that, then the pain and suffering
the "victim" endured. The only way the jury had, was to
make an award that wasn't insignificant and worthless;
one that would be seen by the stockholders in the company's
next bottom line.

Also true. The jury punative damage award was determined
as 2 days McD coffee sales.

How would you deter someone who knowingly aggravates harm?

-- Robert

 

[The little lost angel]

I'd have no problem if McD (and Dunkin' apparently at that
time) were to say "We serve our coffee hotter than normal
so you can enjoy it longer" or some other such warning that
there was an unusual hazard.

It's _hidden_ hazards that I decry.

Hmm, I know I'm late to this party (did I complain about how my new
ISP news server sucks?), but how different are things in the States
with regards to purchased made coffee? In my country, I don't recall
anywhere, vending machines included, that sells coffee at temperatures
that I would risk putting in between my legs. At least not unless I
know I'm doing a stunt sitting there with nobody else nearby to cause
an accident and definitely not with something "crumplable" like a MacD
foam cup.


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If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[keith]

Of course coffee at 150'F gets respect. But coffee at
180'F gets more! McD had to special-order and armtwist the
coffeemaker mfr, so I think it _was_ uncommon before them,
but they might have broken a dam.

Which is a "factoid" I dispute, since D-n-D *did* serve serve 180F coffee
at that time. ...and franchisees were *ordered* to serve it at that
temperature by corporate.

It's a question of degree!

No pun intended, I suppose... ;-)

Many of the poorer coffees really are still
served too hot to sip within 10 minutes of sitting in a closed
foam/paper cup. The keep-warm temperature was probably designed hot
enough to warm up a heavy ceramic cup.

??? "Poorer" coffees? Green Mountain Coffee Roasters isn't exactly the
same CRUD as McD's uses. That's what's served in our cafeteria, in closed
styrofoam cups.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Which is a "factoid" I dispute, since D-n-D *did* serve
serve 180F coffee at that time. ...and franchisees were
*ordered* to serve it at that temperature by corporate.

Certainly possible to disagree, but that can only really
be resolved with more facts, one way or the other.

If franchiesees were _ordered_, does that mean there was
a compliance problem, that they wouldn't otherwise?

No pun intended, I suppose... ;-)

Me? Never!

??? "Poorer" coffees? Green Mountain Coffee Roasters isn't
exactly the same CRUD as McD's uses. That's what's served
in our cafeteria, in closed styrofoam cups.

I suspect the low thermal mass of the cups is responsible.
Our cafeteria serves Starbucks out of pump carafes.
It's never all that hot (even if over-roasted for my
taste). We are _very_ safety conscious at work.

-- Robert

 

[George Macdonald]

Hmm, I know I'm late to this party (did I complain about how my new
ISP news server sucks?), but how different are things in the States
with regards to purchased made coffee? In my country, I don't recall
anywhere, vending machines included, that sells coffee at temperatures
that I would risk putting in between my legs. At least not unless I
know I'm doing a stunt sitting there with nobody else nearby to cause
an accident and definitely not with something "crumplable" like a MacD
foam cup.

The question which is ignored by the Stella-phobes is why in the hell a
beverage is sold at a temp which is undrinkable<gawp, by at least 20F, and
which is so hot it causes 3rd degree burns on the skin? You've just
purchased a drink which, at the temp served, *will* burn your mouth/tongue
and which has been intentionally elevated to that temp... rather than left
at the natural temp it finds in the carafe following the brewing process.

Do they, as customers, insist they want it at that temp so they can install
it in their cup-holders and admire it for 15mins? Personally I don't want
that - when I buy a drink I want to be able drink it and taste it as
served... just like at home. While it may seem like a minor annoyance, it
is enough of one that I no longer purchase coffee from highway stops.

The woman was 79 years old and it's likely her fingers were not as
dexterous as a younger person. AIUI she put the cup between her knees, not
thighs, possibly/probably because she couldn't get the cap off by holding
the cup in one hand and prying with the other... and thought there'd be
less chance of spillage that way.

Note also that the liar/lawyer indignation is contrived and misplaced - the
woman did not ask for punitive damages and there was no suggestion of
misuse of the legal system to gain a disproportionate monetary award; she
just had a large medical bill of $20,000.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Nelson M. G. Santiago]

In <[email protected]>, on 09/01/04

There are frivolous lawsuits. This ain't one.

Well, then you can take a look at:

http://www.StellaAwards.com


Below there is an excerpt from it:


QUOTE

May it please the court:


The Stella Awards were inspired by Stella Liebeck. In 1992, Stella, then
79, spilled a cup of McDonald's coffee onto her lap, burning herself. A
New Mexico jury awarded her $2.9 million in damages, but that's not the
whole story. Ever since, the name "Stella Award" has been applied to any
wild, outrageous, or ridiculous lawsuits -- including bogus cases! We
search for true cases, and you can subscribe by e-mail for free to get the
case reports as they're issued.

Yes, we mean to be entertaining. But there's also a deeper consideration
that we'll be addressing: are the people involved in the cases we present
to you (a juror in the Court of Public Opinion) using the courts to
redress justifiable grievances that can't otherwise be settled? ...Or are
they trying to extort money from anyone they can? Are the lawyers involved
champions of justice? ...Or are they helping to abuse the system in the
name of getting a piece of the action? You be the judge!

UNQUOTE


Nelson

-----------------------------------------------------------
Nelson M. G. Santiago <[email protected]>
-----------------------------------------------------------

Today is Tue Sep 07, 2004.

As of 7:20pm this OS/2 Warp 4 system has been up for 0 days, 1 hours, and
01 minutes. It's running 32 processes with 134 threads.

 

[keith]

Certainly possible to disagree, but that can only really
be resolved with more facts, one way or the other.

If franchiesees were _ordered_, does that mean there was
a compliance problem, that they wouldn't otherwise?

Not as such, though it *was* one of th measurements that corporate used to
whack their franchise holder over the head with. Unlike restroom
cleanliness, this one was measurable and rather simple to conform to,
since their equipment was shipped from corporate to conform.

Me? Never!

Come on! You'e guilty, at least to some degree! ;-)

I suspect the low thermal mass of the cups is responsible. Our cafeteria
serves Starbucks out of pump carafes. It's never all that hot (even if
over-roasted for my taste). We are _very_ safety conscious at work.

We have some of the exotics from pumps, but the major flavors are directly
from the 5# urns. I suppose our cafeteria contractor isn't interested
in safety either.

 

[The little lost angel]

The question which is ignored by the Stella-phobes is why in the hell a
beverage is sold at a temp which is undrinkable<gawp, by at least 20F, and
which is so hot it causes 3rd degree burns on the skin? You've just
purchased a drink which, at the temp served, *will* burn your mouth/tongue
and which has been intentionally elevated to that temp... rather than left
at the natural temp it finds in the carafe following the brewing process.

I guess the question here would be, was it an arbitary number fixed by
MacD, or they have some reasonable reasons for doing this. I think
somebody did mentioned that MacD's assumption was most of the take
away coffee would be drunk some time later when the customer arrives
at whatever place it was they were taking away to. So I would think it
wasn't an unreasonable temperature.

Do they, as customers, insist they want it at that temp so they can install
it in their cup-holders and admire it for 15mins? Personally I don't want
that - when I buy a drink I want to be able drink it and taste it as
served... just like at home. While it may seem like a minor annoyance, it
is enough of one that I no longer purchase coffee from highway stops.

hehehe, personally I usually just order cold drinks if I want
something fast. Maybe I'm used to the fact hot drinks will always be
too hot to drink immediately. Otherwise, we'll call them warm drinks
no?

The woman was 79 years old and it's likely her fingers were not as
dexterous as a younger person. AIUI she put the cup between her knees, not
thighs, possibly/probably because she couldn't get the cap off by holding
the cup in one hand and prying with the other... and thought there'd be
less chance of spillage that way.

Note also that the liar/lawyer indignation is contrived and misplaced - the
woman did not ask for punitive damages and there was no suggestion of
misuse of the legal system to gain a disproportionate monetary award; she
just had a large medical bill of $20,000.

Given this, I think MacD should had just settled out of compassion and
give her the money to cover her medical, it's a paltry sum to MacD.
Plus their marketing department can always put a wonderful spin on how
MacD didn't need to but made a goodwill payment etc etc.

Did she sue MacD first or did she ask them nicely to compensate for
the bills caused by the drinks and they refused?


Though, personally being the klutz I am, I've always kept in mind to
open things applying force in a direction away from myself, hot drinks
or canned soda which have an annoying tendency to gush forth.
Considering my own klutziness, I don't think MacD is technically at
fault here for cups toppling?

Since teens, I've spilled countless of drinks trying to place the tray
down on the table at fast food places like MacD & KFC. It took a while
(ok so I'm slooooow ) before I figured out that I should hold the
drink down with one hand before I attempt the maneuver. or lower
myself parallel to the ground. How the heck do you guys do it without
tripping the cup anyway? There's no way I could figure out how with
two hands still on the tray since the hands inevitably causes the tray
to tilt at an angle.

If going by the "did the customer ask for it" argument, I could very
well sue MacD had any harm come to me, by asking "did I ask for such a
tall cup with a high center of gravity thus greater instability? Why
didn't MacD provide a large base bowl instead for their drinks?" It's
not reasonable, everybody knows that it's a common practise that
bigger drinks come in taller cups and taller cups are more prone to
falling.

Also, I think MacD does have the word HOT on these things no? So
they've warned the customer, it's not their fault if any of us don't
read it no? Though I still hope they do help out the old lady with her
medical bills.


--
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If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
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