Athlon 64 X2 4600+ (939) & Abit AN8 'Fatal1ty': Compatible?

[Robert Redelmeier]

I don't have any numbers on this but I'd figure 80-90%
of Americans live in an area of population density roughly
the same as most Europeans.

Please havea look at some of the fine population denity maps
indexed by Google images.

The fact that there are vast swaths of land in the U.S.

There are similar underpopulated areas of rural France & Spain.

which are unused/unusable doesn't really matter -
major conurbations, where most jobs are concentrated,
seem to reach about the same saturation point.

Not quite. With the exception of Manhattan, European urban
density is higher.

It took them ~20years to catch up with us on exhaust emission
WRT *real* pollutants, like HCs, CO, NOx - the difference

Of course! They use far less gasoline per capita (shorter
distances, higher density and narrow old roads forcing mass
transit). They also don't have smog traps like the LA basin,
and where they _do_ use cars, those cars are spread out (rural).

American cars have become much smaller and
efficient - more on a par with Euro-cars.

On a model-by-model basis, sure. The technology is the same.
But the fleets are vastly different corresponding to different
transportation uses. It would be surprising if they were the
same, with 4x the fuel price, narrower roads and difficult
parking in Europe.

I really don't see a lot of difference in their use of energy
or attitude to energy efficiency, compared with the U.S

Huh? GNP/energy is much lower. They routinely heat houses less.

I don't believe that those people, at the top of extremist
Islam are in any way acting overtly cynically here. They
really do believe it is their destiny to enforce Shariah
upon the world... and that their religion's dogma demands it.

Yes it does, and I didn't say (or believe) the extremists
are cynical at all. They believe. All extremists believe.

What do you do with hoards of home-bred young adults
indoctrinated in the violent overthrow of the regime where
you "happily" pass your days?

Is don't see these hoards in the west, particularly not
in the US. Sure there are some malcontents. But the vast
majority of recent immigrants integrate well. There's a _far_
bigger problem (population bomb) in many Muslim countries.
There will be serious local unrest, and some will get exported.

But as for the Islamic extremists, they are _far_ more threatened by
us than we are by them. And not just militarily. The Disney-esque
western pop culture is very seductive and presents a real challenge
especially when modern technology bypasses censorship. Read Neal
Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon" about McCoy AFB.

-- Robert

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Hmm, I thought you'd already replied to this post.

Yes, but I thought of a side thread.

Not even Dresden, Hanover, Hamburg? Seems like they felt
pretty "upset" by the end of the proceedings.

Certainly. But I was talking about the _start_ of war.

Well I hear that the mealy-mouthed Luxemburgers voted "yes"
but of course the French and Dutch both said "NO" - the Brit
govt. already knows the answer but doesn't want to hear it.

Sure. But more confirmation of "Volkkeit". People were
afraid of losing "their group".

I don't think the European identity, nor conformance to such,
is as ingrained as you seem to think and it is certainly

It is not Euro identity but much smaller groups, regional
or national.

not uniquely German inspired

No, it has been around a while. But the Nazis gave it
a big boost that was never counteracted/undone because it's
_far_ too useful a concept to those who wish to govern.

-- Robert

 

[Nate Edel]

Wrong. The Jews have long held sway in the West, financially and
through the media. Hitler and National Socialism was an attempt by
Europeans to reestablish control over their destiny.

Wow. Thanks for outing yourself as a nazi apologist. *plonk*

 

[George Macdonald]

Given your observation on USENET norms, perhaps you, and all the other
crossposting - off topic posters would like to move your particular
brand of USENET terrorism to one of the many appropriate discussion
groups.

You again... another self-appointed Usenet policeman? Look... threads
drift off-topic all the time - it *is* normal. Learn to live with it. You
have the option to ignore instead of wasting bandwidth with your whinging.

 

[George Macdonald]

First you whinge about off-topic now you want to argue - make up your mind.

Err, not by any means.

What does that mean and where did you assemble the info? Mine is based on
personal observations.

Wasn't the best seller in the US a Honda Accord either last year or the
one before that?

It's oscillated between the Camry and Accord over recent years but...
trucks, which includes SUVs, outsell cars by a long way here and it's
difficult to determine just how many are for true commercial use.

In the case of the Government of the respective countries, there is.
The EU ones recognise the problem and are trying to tackle it. G.W.Bush
says the scientists are wrong and he's not prepared to do anything
which will cost US businesses money.

The govt., in particular the EU, is being told "NO" and is largely ignored
anyway. Kyoto is a monumental joke... which started as a fraud.

There are scientists who are not academic cadgers, who do not depend on
grants to pay their lavish lifestyles, who do not change measured data to
fit their lousy models and who are honestly willing to admit they are not
sure that any observable climate change is significantly man-made... and
more importantly, that any changes we make in lifestyle will have any
impact at all. Trouble is: that does not sell seats on the nightly news
and politicians need something to hang their hat on. WISE UP!

 

[aether]

Wow. Thanks for outing yourself as a nazi apologist.<<

Another Jew or mindless churl. It matters not whether one can prove
that Jews control this or that to such individuals. Their mindset of
acceptability and trend is a virtual religion. Anything, regardless of
it's merit, which might upset this precarious, irrational utopia, is
shunned.

 

[Trent]

Another Jew or mindless churl. It matters not whether one can prove
that Jews control this or that to such individuals. Their mindset of
acceptability and trend is a virtual religion. Anything, regardless of
it's merit, which might upset this precarious, irrational utopia, is
shunned.

Solid, chewy gristle packs your head from ear to
****ing ear, doesn't it?

 

[George Macdonald]

Please havea look at some of the fine population denity maps
indexed by Google images.


There are similar underpopulated areas of rural France & Spain.

Of course but the "maps" present a poor picture for the purposes at hand.

Not quite. With the exception of Manhattan, European urban
density is higher.

There are many cities in the U.S. which match the European provincial
cities, in terms of inner city dwelling and urban sprawl.

Of course! They use far less gasoline per capita (shorter
distances, higher density and narrow old roads forcing mass
transit). They also don't have smog traps like the LA basin,
and where they _do_ use cars, those cars are spread out (rural).

I don't think the differences are as significant as you believe. Surely
you're not saying they did not have the same pollution problems from those
real pollutants. The old narrow roads are barely used and many are not
significantly narrower on -- we have secondary roads too -- and their super
highways far exceed what we have in terms of quality and are not noticably
narrower IME. They are certainly capable of carrying a higher density/hour
but that's more due to the dreadful lane discipline in the U.S.

I don't know where you're getting your info from but it appears to me to be
decades out of date. The fact is that the average Euro is no more
environmentally "aware" than the average American - they waste just as much
as we do.

On a model-by-model basis, sure. The technology is the same.
But the fleets are vastly different corresponding to different
transportation uses. It would be surprising if they were the
same, with 4x the fuel price, narrower roads and difficult
parking in Europe.

They do have more small cars of course, especially at the low end of the
market - they also don't have automobile welfare to the extent we have and
their aging fleet is certainly a smaller class of vehicle. Apart from the
truck/SUV, where they have less of them (enough to have some cities
attempting legislation to ban them), things are getting normalized. As for
the price of gas, they use what they "need"... and they get some of it back
in other economies in their lifestyle.

Huh? GNP/energy is much lower. They routinely heat houses less.

Sorry, I don't see it and I've lived there and go there - this is an old
American myth about not heating houses. You telling me they just live with
whatever temps the climate throws at them? You need to visit and live with
a middle income family there.

Yes it does, and I didn't say (or believe) the extremists
are cynical at all. They believe. All extremists believe.

Then I'm not sure what you meant by "'cuz they know they're wrong". That's
what I was getting at.

Is don't see these hoards in the west, particularly not
in the US. Sure there are some malcontents. But the vast
majority of recent immigrants integrate well. There's a _far_
bigger problem (population bomb) in many Muslim countries.
There will be serious local unrest, and some will get exported.

Myopia will not help fix this. They are here in the U.S. whether you want
to believe it or not. When you see young kids (12 years old or so)
excitedly babbling over polaroid pics of planes hitting the WTC, you *know*
something is wrong.

But as for the Islamic extremists, they are _far_ more threatened by
us than we are by them. And not just militarily. The Disney-esque
western pop culture is very seductive and presents a real challenge
especially when modern technology bypasses censorship. Read Neal
Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon" about McCoy AFB.

Read the articles I cited. Here's another from two days ago:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0711/p01s04-woeu.html. They *are* having
success in seducing young Muslims into their fold.

 

[George Macdonald]

Sure. But more confirmation of "Volkkeit". People were
afraid of losing "their group".

Who - Luxemburg? That's not even a real country. I already mentioned why
they voted no.

It is not Euro identity but much smaller groups, regional
or national.

So what's the difference? There are small regional groups with special
interests all over the world. There is no residual uniquely Volks-culture
that I've observed.

No, it has been around a while. But the Nazis gave it
a big boost that was never counteracted/undone because it's
_far_ too useful a concept to those who wish to govern.

Im afraid you'll have to give a specific example - I've no idea to what you
are referring. They have a bunch of politicians who are just as corrupt as
ours; their ability to manage them is slightly lower due to their electoral
structures and they *are* wakening up to the great liberal lie... though it
is distasteful to them to have to get in bed with the old aristocracy as an
alternative.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Who - Luxemburg? That's not even a real country.

Not Lux, they benefit too much from trade so voted their
wallets -- YES. It's the NO voters who were afraid.
Somewhat for their wallet, somewhat for their group identity.

So what's the difference? There are small regional groups
with special interests all over the world. There is no
residual uniquely Volks-culture that I've observed.

Yes, there are groupings everywhere. What differs is
the attachment, and the willingness to suffer and make
others suffer for the group.

Im afraid you'll have to give a specific example - I've
no idea to what you are referring.

The Nazis introducted a number of practices like home sales
tax to reduce population mobility. I also think they
increased permit requirements and townhall registration.

They have a bunch of politicians who are just as corrupt as ours;

But in very different ways. Corruption is at the party level
rather than the individual legislator.

their ability to manage them is slightly lower due to
their electoral structures

Certainly party lists reduce individual responsibility.

and they *are* wakening up to the great liberal lie... though
it is distasteful to them to have to get in bed with the
old aristocracy as an alternative.

Interesting. What events/evidence make you say this?

-- Robert

 

[keith]

Solid, chewy gristle packs your head from ear to
****ing ear, doesn't it?

Of course not! The only thing in there is aether.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Of course but the "maps" present a poor picture for the purposes at hand.

Look at some of the higher resolutions. Conurbations
_are_ denser in Europe.

There are many cities in the U.S. which match the European provincial
cities, in terms of inner city dwelling and urban sprawl.

Sort of, and sort of not. Yes, you can find similar densities. But
Europe has a more of the higher densities and comparatively little
of the lower ones that predominate in the US. More apartments,
fewer single family stand-alone dwellings. More row-housing on 25'
lots, and very little of std US suburbia on 50-75' lots.

I don't think the differences are as significant as you believe.

I expect that European vehicle-miles are half or less of the US.
Numbers aer surely available. Average tri[p distance is shorter.

They are certainly capable of carrying a higher density/hour
but that's more due to the dreadful lane discipline in the U.S.

Lane discipline certainly is better, but they also have slugs.
But a lane can only care so much. Speed doesn't dictate
carrying capacity, just like Vp (0.7c) doesn't dictate bus
capacity. It's frequency!

No-one much follows the two-second rule in heavy traffic.
One second is more typical. That's 3600 cars/hr. I don't think
the German Ruhr autobahns (for all their discipline) can average
0.5 sec spacing. Maybe one string. For sure the London M25 or
the Paris Peripherique cannot.

I don't know where you're getting your info from but it

I lived there for 2 years 5 years ago.

As for the price of gas, they use what they

It can be democratically taxed as a luxury. And is.

Then I'm not sure what you meant by "'cuz they know they're
wrong". That's what I was getting at.

I misspoke. I meant that the extremists know that their
message will be thought wrong and they expect a poor
reception.

Myopia will not help fix this. They are here in the
U.S. whether you want to believe it or not. When you

Of course. There are also home-grown terrorists. The problem
is that it is much easier to distroy than create. But random
terrorists do not take over a society. They cause some
distruction, and the society can cause itself much more by
fear and expensive prevention.

see young kids (12 years old or so) excitedly babbling
over polaroid pics of planes hitting the WTC, you *know*

Hmmm ... sounds stages. Polaroids are expensive.

-- Robert

 

[George Macdonald]

Look at some of the higher resolutions. Conurbations
_are_ denser in Europe.


Sort of, and sort of not. Yes, you can find similar densities. But
Europe has a more of the higher densities and comparatively little
of the lower ones that predominate in the US. More apartments,
fewer single family stand-alone dwellings. More row-housing on 25'
lots, and very little of std US suburbia on 50-75' lots.

There are differences in some particular situations but it's hard to
generalize. The closer you get to the city, the smaller the lots... in
both cases: Hoboken or Passaic County NJ is not a lot different from the
first few kms outside the Peripherique. In many places, e.g. France, the
external appearance of houses is very deceptive - they look like nothing
from the road.

I don't think the differences are as significant as you believe.

I expect that European vehicle-miles are half or less of the US.
Numbers aer surely available. Average tri[p distance is shorter.

IME you're way off there - the "standard" 12Kmiles/year for the insurance
company fits here and there. Any official "numbers" collected from
owners are going to be effectively useless.

Lane discipline certainly is better, but they also have slugs.
But a lane can only care so much. Speed doesn't dictate
carrying capacity, just like Vp (0.7c) doesn't dictate bus
capacity. It's frequency!

They don't have slugs in the outer lane(s) - they know better... it's a
like a major antisocial act. As for frequency and carrying capacity, of
course it is dependent on speed when the "fast" lane(s) is clogged with
slugs which cause rolling road blocks of dozens or hundreds of vehicles,
even in moderately populated roads. The U.S. misuse of super-highways,
resulting in underuse of available capacity, is lamentable and the
difference in Europe is striking.

You have me confused now with Vp and 0.7c - what kind of "bus" is this?

No-one much follows the two-second rule in heavy traffic.
One second is more typical. That's 3600 cars/hr. I don't think
the German Ruhr autobahns (for all their discipline) can average
0.5 sec spacing. Maybe one string. For sure the London M25 or
the Paris Peripherique cannot.


I lived there for 2 years 5 years ago.

I've lived over there in various places for a lot longer than that and I
still visit - was in France 2 months ago.

It can be democratically taxed as a luxury. And is.


Of course. There are also home-grown terrorists. The problem
is that it is much easier to distroy than create. But random
terrorists do not take over a society. They cause some
distruction, and the society can cause itself much more by
fear and expensive prevention.


Hmmm ... sounds stages. Polaroids are expensive.

Huh - "stages"? Surely you're not casting doubt here - the story is true:
those people were on the boardwalk in Hoboken at 7:30. Polaroids are not
that expensive and I did *not* say the kids owned it. Oh, if you meant
"staged", how the hell could they?

 

[George Macdonald]

Not Lux, they benefit too much from trade so voted their
wallets -- YES. It's the NO voters who were afraid.
Somewhat for their wallet, somewhat for their group identity.

Not at all. Even if it were so, what's so different from U.S. States and
*their* desire for identity and err, "self-determination"? The Euros are
just waking up to the reality of a crushing, unelected regime ruling the
minutest details of their lives.

The Nazis introducted a number of practices like home sales
tax to reduce population mobility. I also think they
increased permit requirements and townhall registration.

I don't see anything in Europe currently which is grossly out of whack in
that respect, compared with the U.S. It's the bottom line which counts -
I've no idea what they might be paying in "home sales tax", if anything,
and people don't appear to be reluctant to move home.

But in very different ways. Corruption is at the party level
rather than the individual legislator.

Again, small differences, we have whips too.

Certainly party lists reduce individual responsibility.


Interesting. What events/evidence make you say this?

The "no" vote has little to do with the "constitution" - it's a protest
against the micro-management of their society by creeps in Brussels. The
EC, in particular, is acting like a high handed nanny govt. *and* it is not
an elected body - people are pissed and want some of the lost personal
"control" back. The liberal left are largely blamed for the mess and the
stories of their sticky fingers, which are becoming common public
knowledge, make them appear even less honest than the conservative right.
The corruption is "in your face"... brazen even and the worst offenders,
like Kinnock whose entire family has what what amounts to sinecures, are
mostly just washed up, failed left wingers.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Hoboken or Passaic County NJ is not a lot different from
the first few kms outside the Peripherique.

Sure. The BosWash corridor is very similar to European urban
areas. And suffer the same density stresses. But the US has a
lot of people living in much lower density cities like Dallas/FW.

e.g. France, the external appearance of houses is very
deceptive - they look like nothing from the road.

Certainly. In the US people flaunt their wealth and hide
their intelligence. Everwhere else, it's the other way 'round.

IME you're way off there - the "standard" 12Kmiles/year for the
insurance company fits here and there. Any official "numbers"
collected from owners are going to be effectively useless.

Of course. But there are many other ways. I believe we were
talking about total energy use. I've found numbers: Lux is 8.4
tons oil equivalent per person per year (kinda high, but they're
wealthy, fairly rural and have low gas tax that attracts foreigners
to fill-up). US=8.1; Belgium=5.8; France=4.4; Germany=Japan=4.1;
UK=4.0.

They don't have slugs in the outer lane(s) - they know
better... it's a like a major antisocial act.

I think you mean inner (passing) lanes. The passing lanes
are on the right in the UK (left in the US). The slow lanes
in Europe have lots of slugs. Small minicars and their grossly
underpowered tractor-trailors. They have good lane discipline
because passing on the outside is forbidden -- a violation.

You have me confused now with Vp and 0.7c - what kind of
"bus" is this?

None made by GM or even Mercedes. But every mobo goes
this fast. Even those made by PCChips

Huh - "stages"? Surely you're not casting doubt here - the story
is true: those people were on the boardwalk in Hoboken at 7:30.
Polaroids are not that expensive and I did *not* say the kids
owned it. Oh, if you meant "staged", how the hell could they?

I thought you were talking about those staged things in
the Middle East. I'm a bit surprised they happened in
Hoboken, but hey, it's a crazy place. Everything that
can happen, statistically _must_ happen.

-- Robert

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Not at all. Even if it were so, what's so different from
U.S. States and *their* desire for identity and err, "self-
determination"? The Euros are just waking up to the reality
of a crushing, unelected regime ruling the minutest details of
their lives.

And an elected one would be better? Euros have long
accepted mincromanagement from their own governments.

I don't see anything in Europe currently which is grossly
out of whack in that respect, compared with the U.S.

ID cards? Permits for many things? Zoning? Maybe the
US NE is like this, most most of the US is not.

It's the bottom line which counts - I've no idea what
they might be paying in "home sales tax", if anything,

10% is usual. And freedom is _not_ about the bottom
line. By the time it becomes financial, it's 'way
too late.

Again, small differences, we have whips too.

Yes, and the US whips are laughably powerless buffoons.
What leverage do they have? Maybe some pork. Euro whip
control the order of the party lists. When was the last
time a member of Parlement crossed the floor?

The "no" vote has little to do with the "constitution" - it's a
protest against the micro-management of their society by creeps
in Brussels. The EC, in particular, is acting like a high handed
nanny govt. *and* it is not an elected body - people are pissed
and want some of the lost personal "control" back. The liberal
left are largely blamed for the mess and the stories of their
sticky fingers, which are becoming common public knowledge,
make them appear even less honest than the conservative right.
The corruption is "in your face"... brazen even and the worst
offenders, like Kinnock whose entire family has what what amounts
to sinecures, are mostly just washed up, failed left wingers.

I don't see anything about the old aristocracy.
It isn't their only alternative.

Nor do I see much cry to dismantle the employee protections that
have caused so much of their current malaise [unemployment].

-- Robert

 

[George Macdonald]

Sure. The BosWash corridor is very similar to European urban
areas. And suffer the same density stresses. But the US has a
lot of people living in much lower density cities like Dallas/FW.


Certainly. In the US people flaunt their wealth and hide
their intelligence. Everwhere else, it's the other way 'round.


Of course. But there are many other ways. I believe we were
talking about total energy use. I've found numbers: Lux is 8.4
tons oil equivalent per person per year (kinda high, but they're
wealthy, fairly rural and have low gas tax that attracts foreigners
to fill-up). US=8.1; Belgium=5.8; France=4.4; Germany=Japan=4.1;
UK=4.0.

Those are total consumption though?... including all the home heating oil
used in the U.S. and which is extremely rare (non-existent ?) in Europe -
those refinery cuts are what they use in a majority (according to recent
estimates) of their cars there. France, e.g., has continued to invest
heavily in nuclear energy, other countries too but to a lesser extent and
"natural" gas is what is usually used for household heat/cooking.

I'm not even convinced that wind turbines are all that "green" and they
sure are a fugly blight on the landscape. Apparently WWF also hates them
because they "might frighten & kill birds".

I think you mean inner (passing) lanes. The passing lanes
are on the right in the UK (left in the US). The slow lanes
in Europe have lots of slugs. Small minicars and their grossly
underpowered tractor-trailors. They have good lane discipline
because passing on the outside is forbidden -- a violation.

Funny that: outer lane == right hand lanes to you in the U.S. - that's a
new one on me. Yes I know about the U.K.'s rules - I've driven there
extensively. Hogging the left lane in NJ is also illegal but people do it
all the time ("not keeping right" is what I've seen listed a few times as
the reason for a stop of what turned out to be drug traffickers ) and
yes I've been passed on the right in France. People in Europe don't hog
the left lane mainly to avoid the extreme aggravation.

I thought their tractor-trailers were the same Volvos and M-Bs we see here
in the U.S.

I thought you were talking about those staged things in
the Middle East. I'm a bit surprised they happened in
Hoboken, but hey, it's a crazy place. Everything that
can happen, statistically _must_ happen.

This was 9/12/2001; the kids (in NW NJ) had photos of the planes hitting
WTC... smoke, flames and all; when asked where they got them, they said:
"oh we were down there, at Hoboken at 7:30a.m. yesterday"; they had umm,
"olive skin" and a mid-east "appearance"; the parents managed the local
Exxon gas station; Hoboken at 7:30a.m. is not a tourist venue/time. Think
about it.:-( This is not the only account among my personal acquaintances
of a mid-eastern family, living a "normal U.S. resident life", having prior
knowledge of the 9/11 atrocity.

 

[George Macdonald]

And an elected one would be better? Euros have long
accepted mincromanagement from their own governments.

Having a "Politburo" in Washington handing out legislation with direction
to the Congress on how to vote it would not bother you? Yes, elected helps
when you want to get rid of the corrupt, bigoted and just plain malfeasant.

ID cards? Permits for many things? Zoning? Maybe the
US NE is like this, most most of the US is not.

Effectively, I don't really see much difference. An ID, whether it be a
driving license or something else is pretty much mandatory everywhere now.
I'll start to worry when mandatory RFID implants are being tabled. As for
permits and Zoning, without them, people make a mess... are human beings
vermin? I haven't made up my mind on that one!

Yes, and the US whips are laughably powerless buffoons.
What leverage do they have? Maybe some pork. Euro whip
control the order of the party lists. When was the last
time a member of Parlement crossed the floor?

Well if you count Gorgeous George starting a new party?... the same guy
who gave the U.S. Senate a dressing down.

I don't see anything about the old aristocracy.
It isn't their only alternative.

I thought you were questioning evidence of the wake-up to the "liberal
lie"... which is pretty much universal: look at the disarray in the
Democratic Party in the U.S. If you go "right" in Europe, you're pretty
much aligned with the (lazy) "old aristocracy"... apart from maybe the
Wedgie-Benns.

Nor do I see much cry to dismantle the employee protections that
have caused so much of their current malaise [unemployment].

You missed the disempowerment of the unions in the U.K.? The corps. in
Europe have plenty of latitude in other ways to shaft employees, though
you're right about "employee protections"... although those came about
because of the enormous abuses of the Euro-capitalists over the years. I
think it'll get fixed... but probably slowly.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

I thought their tractor-trailers were the same Volvos and
M-Bs we see here in the U.S.

Hardly. Euro tractor-trailers are 12 wheelers. US std is 18.
US engines are typically 400-500 HP, Euros are 230-420 HP.
Euros use cab-over-engine designs and don't have sleepers.

This was 9/12/2001; the kids (in NW NJ) had photos of the
planes hitting WTC... smoke, flames and all; when asked where
they got them, they said: "oh we were down there, at Hoboken
at 7:30a.m. yesterday"; they had umm, "olive skin" and a
mid-east "appearance"; the parents managed the local Exxon
gas station; Hoboken at 7:30a.m. is not a tourist venue/time.
Think about it.:-( This is not the only account among my
personal acquaintances of a mid-eastern family, living a "normal
U.S. resident life", having prior knowledge of the 9/11 atrocity.

If they lived there, how long does it take to get a camera?
The towers bured for 1-2 hours before collapsing. If they
really did have "prior knowledge" (which I sincerely doubt),
then they potentially are accessories-before-the-fact and
ought to be questioned & perhaps charged.

-- Robert

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Having a "Politburo" in Washington handing out legislation
with direction to the Congress on how to vote it would not
bother you? Yes, elected helps when you want to get rid
of the corrupt, bigoted and just plain malfeasant.

It does, but only at the cost of giving them the power and legitimacy
of elected officals. Notice how US politics changed after the 19th
Amendment (direct election of Senators)

Effectively, I don't really see much difference. An ID,
whether it be a driving license or something else is pretty
much mandatory everywhere now.

No. Only in certain predictable situations where the
authorities have probable cause.

I'll start to worry when mandatory RFID implants are

Easy to put into drivers licences. Lots of antenna space.
So carry yours in a metal cigarette case and get stopped.

being tabled. As for permits and Zoning, without them,
people make a mess...

They can. There are always some trophy non-conforming uses.
But with them, the zones get manipulated for developer's
gain and enormous corruption potential.

I thought you were questioning evidence of the wake-up to
the "liberal lie"... which is pretty much universal: look at
the disarray in the Democratic Party in the U.S. If you go
"right" in Europe, you're pretty much aligned with the (lazy)
"old aristocracy"... apart from maybe the Wedgie-Benns.

Some alignment, but only the sense of common-enemy.

As for people waking-up, nope. Until people are willing
to abandon the nanny-state protections, they're still dreaming.

You missed the disempowerment of the unions in the U.K.?

Of course not. Nor of those in the US NE.

The corps. in Europe have plenty of latitude in other ways
to shaft employees, though you're right about "employee

Yes, mostly because the job market is moribund (due to job
protections) so getting laid off is a much bigger deal than
in the US.

-- Robert