Athlon 64 X2 4600+ (939) & Abit AN8 'Fatal1ty': Compatible?

[George Macdonald]

Huh? Montreal and DC chose tire/rail, and I think for good reason.
Better ride, faster starts & stops. I don't think the cost
is excessive. Digging the hole & stations costs the money.

There's no doubt that it *is* expensive to build *and* maintain, especially
considering that Paris' system was a conversion job and no rerouting could
be done to accomodate the rollways or guides... and service was not
interrupted during the conversion... and it's still a dual system with
standard gauge rails. Obviously there's no comparison with Montreal or DC
when it comes to the scale of the systems. RATP decided to quit doing
conversions because of the costs.

I'm not so sure its worse than others. Yes, Paris have very
attractive subway fares. Particularly the multi-ride and
season pass pricing. But I'm not sure this hurts their
total revenue stream. The cost of running a subway is
more-or-less independant of ridership. They're going to be
full at rush hours. The trick is to attract off-peak riders.

This is a revenue maximization exercise, and even with a
monopoly, that isn't with maximum prices. The shape of
the demand curve must be carefully plotted. Usually good
discounts give high volumes, which is very important.

It's a flat fare system. I've no idea what discounts might exist beyond a
"carnet" which does not save much - don't recall recent numbers. Riding
the Tube in London certainly hurts the pocket of the passenger a *lot*
more.

On a microscale with tax distortions, certainly.
I'm a bit surprised Newcastle didn't match.
This is an ugly game.

Newcastle did not have the same EU err, incentives.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Trucking... high order?... secure? Nothing "falls" off the back?;-)

'corse it does in NJ Things fall out of armored cars there.

I didn't say you could do it with current stock/rails and
I'd already mentioned the anachronism of humping yards.

Huh? What's better than a fully automated humping yard?
Split trains maybe, but they need to be assembled in an
ultra-wide humping yard! This whole thing is a massive
"Towers of Hanoi" puzzle. And all the computer power in the
world won't get around the moves.

They don't have to be dirty - that's only a contemporary choice.
Are you saying the EPA has no mandate to control locomotive
emissions?... seems odd.

They do, but not under the same legislation. The sources
are far more diffuse and on private land. Like construction.

The diesel electric is a far more efficient "engine" than
the thousands of smoke belching trucks I see -

Huh? Have you ever seen diesel electric exhaust? The motor
efficiency isn't much better (diesels throttle well). The
electrics are only used because it's the easiest type of
transmission design over the staggeringly wide range required.

Rail is efficient mostly due to lower wind and rolling resistance.

add in hybrid electrics

Two words: Battery weight.

We used to see regular surveillance around here a few
years ago.

So lobby your state politicians. If they're not too busy
falling off the back of trucks Then maybe de-elect'em.

You're reading way more detail than even I have and 3 miles

Why not read the details? At least they're physical facts,
not personal statements which might be mistaken or lies.
If you want to draw strong conclusions, you'd best have
strong evidence.

is a bit of an exaggeration even from the center of Hoboken.

OK -- less than 1/2" high at 2 miles.

Look the photos existed the next day - the guys who had them
claimed to have taken them and were gloating over them.
That's enough to get me worried but I'd suggest you argue
with them... if you can find them.

You think they're bad guys, but then believe what they say?
Maybe they were just pressing your buttons.

all I know they could have been done with a cheap digicam
and were digital enlargements... easy enough.

Sure. But the math then works out as 150 pixels high from
a 2.0MP camera. D@mn -- NTSC is better! I suspect the photos
were from the web (hence my reference).

They've been twiddling their thumbs for long enough.
Hey, maybe Enoch Powell was right after all.

I presume you're referring to the so-called "Rivers of
Blood" speech, and not:

- I will not surrender responsibility for my life and my actions.

- If I cannot understand my friend's silence, I will never get
to understand his words.

- If my ship sails from sight, it doesn't mean my journey ends,
it simply means the river bends.

- No battle is worth fighting except the last one.

- Remove advertising, disable a person or firm from
preconising its wares and their merits, and the whole of
society and of the economy is transformed. The enemies of
advertising are enemies of freedom.

- When I repress my emotion my stomach keeps score.
[John Enoch Powell]

-- Robert

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

There's no doubt that it *is* expensive to build *and* maintain,

_Everything_ is. The real question is cost/benefit.

especially considering that Paris' system was a conversion
job and no rerouting could be done to accomodate the
rollways or guides... and service was not interrupted

All of which makes it horrendously more expensive.
Quite possible not worth the differential benefits.

Obviously there's no comparison with
Montreal or DC when it comes to the scale of the systems.

Both were more than adequate scale. The real difference
is that both were started as rubber & rail. So the cost
differential was not nearly as large as afterconversion.

It's a flat fare system.

So in NYC and most places outside of Germany and Japan
who are big into zones. What the zones do is encourage
shorter trips (tying up stations) and this isn't very
good when there's a defined [congested] downtown.

Riding the Tube in London certainly hurts the pocket of
the passenger a *lot* more.

Certainly. And they deter users. Maybe London has less
capacity, so this is optimum for them. Paris might be
overbuilt, and has to lower prices to maximize revenue.

Newcastle did not have the same EU err, incentives.

Outstanding! An object lesson for one and all
not to give the EU too much power. Very clear, very
concrete. Lots of grist for the UK political mill.

-- Robert

 

[Tony Hill]

I'm not so sure its worse than others. Yes, Paris have very
attractive subway fares. Particularly the multi-ride and
season pass pricing. But I'm not sure this hurts their
total revenue stream. The cost of running a subway is
more-or-less independant of ridership. They're going to be
full at rush hours. The trick is to attract off-peak riders.

This is a revenue maximization exercise, and even with a
monopoly, that isn't with maximum prices. The shape of
the demand curve must be carefully plotted. Usually good
discounts give high volumes, which is very important.

One thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of indirect benefits
to having people ride subway systems that can be factored in. Some
are fairly obvious, ie fewer road repairs due to less traffic. But
also think of the (HUGE) tourist industry in Paris that benefits quite
strongly from Le Metro.

It's not easy to factor these things into a simple plot, but they are
things that must be considered in costs. Government subsidies of this
sort of thing make sense when the tourists bring in lots of money that
filters back to government coffers.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

One thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of indirect
benefits to having people ride subway systems that can be
factored in. Some are fairly obvious, ie fewer road repairs
due to less traffic. But also think of the (HUGE) tourist
industry in Paris that benefits quite strongly from Le Metro.

Yes. There are a lot of indirects.

Access: more people moved at the same congestion from
driven and parking cars is probably the biggest benefit.
Paris might be sprawled like LA without the metro.

-- Robert

 

[George Macdonald]

_Everything_ is. The real question is cost/benefit.

I think that's been my point: as cost/benefit increases, which applies
here, you have a relative "luxury".

Both were more than adequate scale. The real difference
is that both were started as rubber & rail. So the cost
differential was not nearly as large as afterconversion.

I meant that neither is anywhere near the size of the Paris system.

It's a flat fare system.

So in NYC and most places outside of Germany and Japan
who are big into zones. What the zones do is encourage
shorter trips (tying up stations) and this isn't very
good when there's a defined [congested] downtown.

Riding the Tube in London certainly hurts the pocket of
the passenger a *lot* more.

Certainly. And they deter users. Maybe London has less
capacity, so this is optimum for them. Paris might be
overbuilt, and has to lower prices to maximize revenue.

London has a much wider spread and much longer lines; in fact Paris is an
amazingly compact city with very high population density.

Outstanding! An object lesson for one and all
not to give the EU too much power. Very clear, very
concrete. Lots of grist for the UK political mill.

Oh it's not just the U.K. - a plant which made winter tires was closed in
Sweden (or Norway ?) and moved to Spain, which had umm, incentives; Germany
is currently feeling the brunt of Polish incentives. The fisheries
policies are absolutely nuts: fishing boats which go over "by-catch" quota
are forced to dump the dead fish back... as if it was possible to
predetermine by-catch.

 

[George Macdonald]

Huh? What's better than a fully automated humping yard?
Split trains maybe, but they need to be assembled in an
ultra-wide humping yard! This whole thing is a massive
"Towers of Hanoi" puzzle. And all the computer power in the
world won't get around the moves.

One of the problems with humping is that the "mechanism" as a whole is
horribly difficult to manage and impossible to optimize - a model railroad
system has better "equipment". A rethink with modern planned scheduling
and assembly of macro-trains and a non-legacy terminal system could, IMO,
do much better. I guess currently assigned land allocation and geometry
might be a problem.

Huh? Have you ever seen diesel electric exhaust? The motor
efficiency isn't much better (diesels throttle well). The
electrics are only used because it's the easiest type of
transmission design over the staggeringly wide range required.

And yet the idea of diesel electric for road use has been considered. The
dirt is only a choice. Diesels also do extremely well with smooth loads,
which can be better arranged on rails.

Rail is efficient mostly due to lower wind and rolling resistance.

IMO it's also to do with lack of "traffic" and accel/deccel which can be
planned ahead... leading to extended steady loads... also hills tend to be
smoothed out.

Two words: Battery weight.

No, I did not mean in the contemporary automobile sense. A locomotive
which is diesel electric but can turn the diesel off and pull electric
directly, usually off an overhead.

So lobby your state politicians. If they're not too busy
falling off the back of trucks Then maybe de-elect'em.

What can I say? We just got rid of a corrupt, charlatan governor who was
more interested in his jaunts with his chosen (non-citizen) err, same-sex
PA than state business. The township where he'd been mayor warned us
against this guy but he still got elected... and a recent poll revealed
that he'd get re-elected.Ô_Ô Did anybody ever say people are too stupid to
be allowed to vote in a democracy?

Why not read the details? At least they're physical facts,
not personal statements which might be mistaken or lies.
If you want to draw strong conclusions, you'd best have
strong evidence.

What details? This was an account by a friend who pulled in to get gas...
on 9/12.

OK -- less than 1/2" high at 2 miles.


You think they're bad guys, but then believe what they say?
Maybe they were just pressing your buttons.

They were kids fer Chrissakes... excitedly babbling over some photos they
claimed they or someone in their family had taken, after waiting an hour or
so for the event. I take it at face value.

Sure. But the math then works out as 150 pixels high from
a 2.0MP camera. D@mn -- NTSC is better! I suspect the photos
were from the web (hence my reference).

Sorry, but your suspecting and presuming is just staggering... byzantine
even. If you prefer to ignore/dispute the fact that there *were* Qaeda
sympathizers in this country, living "normal" lives, who had prior
knowledge, I have to wonder what is going to waken you up. You wanna wait

I presume you're referring to the so-called "Rivers of
Blood" speech, and not:

Well, not specifically but that was the message and his prophecy is
strikingly close. He was once quoted as saying/proposing "give them all
£2000. and send them home". I was being somewhat facetious of course but
it does seem that "tolerance" does not appear to be working well with
people who are themselves intolerant of err, "diversity".

 

[George Macdonald]

One thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of indirect benefits
to having people ride subway systems that can be factored in. Some
are fairly obvious, ie fewer road repairs due to less traffic. But
also think of the (HUGE) tourist industry in Paris that benefits quite
strongly from Le Metro.

Roads very rarely need repaired due to wear from automobiles - it's 99% due
to trucks, many of which are overladen. Take a look at the road surface of
any Parkway where trucks are banned - the Garden State is a good example
because there is a section in the middle where buses run and which is more
beat-up -- and needs more frequent repairs -- than the rest but still
nowhere as bad as the freeways. Where you only have cars it's not unusual
for a road surface to last 20-30years without repair.

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

One of the problems with humping is that the "mechanism"
as a whole is horribly difficult to manage and impossible to
optimize - a model railroad system has better "equipment".

Huh? A model railroad system has some interesting flexible
cranes -- hands! Real cars are slightly more difficult to move.

A rethink with modern planned scheduling and assembly of
macro-trains

I'm really not sure what you're saying here. The RRs have
been using computer scheduling since the 1950s.

and a non-legacy terminal system could, IMO,

I haven't heard of any actual termina problems. Some
places have a shortage of contrainer cranes, but that only
to be expected given the fast increase in traffic.

Diesels also do extremely well with smooth loads, which
can be better arranged on rails.

Or for hybrid automobiles. They could also use turbine
gensets.

What can I say? We just got rid of a corrupt, charlatan
governor who was more interested in his jaunts with his
chosen (non-citizen) err, same-sex PA than state business.
The township where he'd been mayor warned us against this
guy but he still got elected... and a recent poll revealed
that he'd get re-elected.Ô_Ô Did anybody ever say people
are too stupid to be allowed to vote in a democracy?

There are some very odd reasons "features" of the US electoral
system. From primaries through finals. But if "the people"
are too stupid, who are you going to use? An elite, as at
the founding of the US?

some photos they claimed they or someone in their family
had taken, after waiting an hour or so for the event.
I take it at face value.

You take it as you want. I take it as most likely TV.

ignore/dispute the fact that there *were* Qaeda sympathizers
in this country, living "normal" lives, who had prior
knowledge, I have to wonder what is going to waken you up.

I think many are still there. A friends' FIL. But you
cannot arrest people for opinions. I'm not sure you can
even arrest somone for _not_ calling the cops after hearing
"Go to Hoboken tomorrow by 7am. You will see a sight."
At most, they can haul the speaker in for questioning
and maybe get a search warrent.

You wanna wait for the big one?<shrug>

I think we have very little choice. There are some reasonable
and inexpensive precautions we can take. The rest merely do
the terrorists job for them [ruin society].

I was being somewhat facetious of course but it does seem
that "tolerance" does not appear to be working well with
people who are themselves intolerant of err, "diversity".

So you're intolerant of those who are intolerant.
I don't know.

-- Robert

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

I think that's been my point: as cost/benefit increases,
which applies here, you have a relative "luxury".

Sure. But if the ratio is below 1.0 then it's still a
net benefit to the economy.

I meant that neither is anywhere near the size of the
Paris system.

Yes, and I meant that once you get past a certain
point, size is irrelevant. It's $/mile and fixed or
mobilization costs are thinly spread.

London has a much wider spread and much longer lines;
in fact Paris is an amazingly compact city with very high
population density.

Yes, it is. Probably thanks to the metro.

Oh it's not just the U.K. - a plant which made winter tires
was closed in Sweden (or Norway ?) and moved to Spain,
which had umm, incentives;

Norway is not a member of the EU. Still could have happened.

The fisheries policies are absolutely nuts: fishing boats
which go over "by-catch" quota are forced to dump the dead
fish back... as if it was possible to predetermine by-catch.

Why do you say nuts? Most agricultural policies are aimed at
supporting [increasing] prices by limiting supply. This is
just another example like the US paying farmers not to grow.

-- Robert

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Roads very rarely need repaired due to wear from automobiles
- it's 99% due to trucks, many of which are overladen.

This is partly true, depending on how the roadbed has been
designed. Very significant maintenance is necessary in
freeze country because of the freeze-thaw damage cycle.

-- Robert

 

[George Macdonald]

Huh? A model railroad system has some interesting flexible
cranes -- hands! Real cars are slightly more difficult to move.

Tsk, tsk - no hands.

I'm really not sure what you're saying here. The RRs have
been using computer scheduling since the 1950s.

Scheduling has come a long way, especially in the last few years, and from
what I've heard of their computerized methods, it was not that impressive
at the time I heard it.

I haven't heard of any actual termina problems. Some
places have a shortage of contrainer cranes, but that only
to be expected given the fast increase in traffic.

I just think they're saddled with an obsolete methodology. If you look at
modern ports around the world, the old peripheral railroad marshalling
yards are long gone or seriously slimmed down.

There are some very odd reasons "features" of the US electoral
system. From primaries through finals. But if "the people"
are too stupid, who are you going to use? An elite, as at
the founding of the US?

Well the EC is not a good example of how to arrange an elite and certainly
exposes the err, problems therein. I don't have a solution but if you
recall... accounts of "pregnant chafe" make me wonder about voter umm,
competence.

You take it as you want. I take it as most likely TV.

Just because it *might* have, it is so... despite the proud claims. I give
up.

I think many are still there. A friends' FIL. But you
cannot arrest people for opinions. I'm not sure you can
even arrest somone for _not_ calling the cops after hearing
"Go to Hoboken tomorrow by 7am. You will see a sight."
At most, they can haul the speaker in for questioning
and maybe get a search warrent.

Well there was another local case among my circle of acquaintances and the
FBI got very interested in a "don't go to New York next week" remark (in
writing). The house was stripped when they arrived. As for the "gas
station family" they're gone. I believe that someone who heard "go to
Hoboken" and acted on it could certainly fall under the emergency terrorist
rules.

You wanna wait for the big one?<shrug>

I think we have very little choice. There are some reasonable
and inexpensive precautions we can take. The rest merely do
the terrorists job for them [ruin society].

We could start by identifying those (guests) who are (brazenly) preaching
destruction of our society -- actually civilization -- and ejecting them,
tout de bloody suite! I understand that many are illegal aliens - quite a
slap in the face of people who have gone to all the trouble to follow the
USCIS rules & procedures. How ironic, that the perps in the U.K. arrived
just within the last 10-15years as refugees... guests of a
benefactor.<gulp> Doing nothing, or reactive procedures, is not an option.

Personally I've always thought the Swiss model for citizenship as
quasi-fascist but now I find myself err, re-evaluating.<shrug> I have to
wonder how the recent London perps would feel about forced repatriation to
err, Somalia... apparently not a very nice place!

So you're intolerant of those who are intolerant.
I don't know.

I'm intolerant of people whose declared intention is to subjugate us to a
caliphate or mass-murder us if we don't submit. Having read Paul Berman's
article beginning to end (here it is again
http://www.wehaitians.com/the philosopher of islamic terror.html )
I see no option but to be intolerant of this kind of fascist Islamic
agenda. Those who want to control what I do, watch, drink, smoke, eat,
etc. I can deal with, within the terms of our legal system as it stands.

 

[George Macdonald]

Sure. But if the ratio is below 1.0 then it's still a
net benefit to the economy.

Benefit is fungible enough that anyone who has a mind to can get the ratio
in the ballpark they want. Again, the Paris Metro supplies a level of
service most others don't, a good portion of which falls into the fungible
part of benefit. That's my impression based on user experiences.

Yes, and I meant that once you get past a certain
point, size is irrelevant. It's $/mile and fixed or
mobilization costs are thinly spread.

I think I've already suggested that I just don't see how you can apply the
same $/mile metric to a modern system design with a few suburban spurs and
a downtown loop, all predesigned with rubber in mind to a conversion on a
system so complex and comprehensive as Paris, with such high station
density - the scale of things is just too different.

Yes, it is. Probably thanks to the metro.

Chicken & egg again: Paris was "compact" with relatively high rise
dwellings, many still standing and in use, and population density long
before the Metro became as convenient as now. OTOH I'm sure it has helped
to maintain and even increase population density over the past 20-30 years.

Norway is not a member of the EU. Still could have happened.

Probably Sweden then but Norway is a member of EFTA and is apparently
girding up to join the EU... again - dunno how their going to deal with the
Access Commun which caused them to balk on the first go at the midnight
hour.

The fisheries policies are absolutely nuts: fishing boats
which go over "by-catch" quota are forced to dump the dead
fish back... as if it was possible to predetermine by-catch.

Why do you say nuts? Most agricultural policies are aimed at
supporting [increasing] prices by limiting supply. This is
just another example like the US paying farmers not to grow.

What? Don't you do any shopping? The price of fish/seafood does not need
support - the perversion here is that the dumping/quotas is done in the
name of err, conservation of stocks. That's not the only thing that's nuts
about it -- a read of some of the details is a lesson in how a centralized
bureaucracy can bugger up a viable system which has worked perfectly under
local management for 100s of years -- but if we keep on with this we'll
still be at it come Christmas.

 

[George Macdonald]

This is partly true, depending on how the roadbed has been
designed. Very significant maintenance is necessary in
freeze country because of the freeze-thaw damage cycle.

There's nothing "partly true" about the rates of deterioration of freeways
vs. parkways, even in the frost belt from what I see.