Vista licence: punishment for frequent upgraders?

[Rod Speed]

Matt wrote

DOS was first. It became the dominant OS for IBM PCs. The price
for the hardware was right so most folks bought IBM clones. DOS
got stronger. Then came the next evolutionary step. Windows. All or
most of the DOS people migrated to Windows. As you say, Microsoft
achieved "dominant market position" and that's where we are presently.

However, Linux has come a long long way. I've used it for years (ever
since it was just as cryptic as DOS). Last week I installed the latest
version of Ubuntu (sensibly named Xubuntu) using the xfce user interface.

I popped in the CD and sat back and let it install. The only interaction
I had was when it was unsure of the onboard graphics card. It presented
me with a list of graphics cards and asked me to choose. All other
hardware was automatically detected and it even set up and
connected me to the 2 Windows machines on my network automatically.

Painless. For the first time.

Try that with a system that has digital TV capture cards or
ipods installed and discover that it goes flat on its face with those.

And those are hardly what you might call exotic hardware.

All I can say to 'Redmond' is, 'move over', there's a new kid on the block

No moving over required any time soon.

and it has become every bit as easy to use
and is easily as powerful as Windows XP.

Wrong with that hardware in the system.

Be prepared to see it pre-loaded on a lot more of newer equipment
rather than the new and supposedly improved 'Windows Vistabloat'

Taint gunna happen, you watch.

which requires 16 tons of memory and formula-1 CPUs

Pig ignorant lie.

and, if it runs true to form, will require patching every second day or so.

Bare faced lie now.

Heavy-duty gameplayers may just as well ignore Linux at present.

And those who are radical enough to have ipods and digital TV
capture cards and digital cameras that have software that does
more than just pull the images out of the camera. And dont start
raving about the Gimp, its nothing like what comes with some
of the high end digital cameras support software wise.

This OS is for working not for playing high end popular games.

Or doing something as basic as loading your ipod either.

At least for the present and near future.

IMO, open architecture *is* here to stay.

Sure, but thats an entirely separate issue to whether MS has anything to worry about.

 

[John Doe]

A Linux Lunatic living in a land of make-believe.


Path: newssvr27.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm04.news.prodigy.com!newsdst01.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.com!newscon04.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!teal.octanews.net.MISMATCH!mauve.octanews.net!news-out.octanews.net!indigo.octanews.net!authen.yellow.readfreenews.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Mike T." <noway nohow.not>
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
References: <lemdnRJzpOPoFKDYnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d comcast.com> <25crj2hu8cjjr1qed6apads9p1j9114ia3 4ax.com> <MPG.1fa82b09dc5aa6bb989bc2 news.individual.net> <453e3227$0$97257$892e7fe2 authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1161717838.637080.130620 e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <Xns98674B13D70AB0123456789 207.115.17.102> <glL%g.51$3v4.27 newsfe04.lga> <Xns9867CD66A3D5A0123456789 207.115.17.102> <pCU%g.1760$Dg6.315 newsfe07.lga> <oWI1h.4425$ya1.3443 news02.roc.ny> <pan.2006.10.31.15.11.04.660482 tux.nil> <Xns986D636CA78630123456789 207.115.17.102>
Subject: Re: Vista licence: punishment for frequent upgraders?
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:22:56 -0500
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962
X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0644-4, 10/31/2006), Outbound message
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4547a291$0$97237$892e7fe2 authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>
Organization: Read Free News
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Oct 2006 13:22:57 CST
X-Trace: DXC=iO3Ga\\741L>`O;4c81R1J]AGWjF5PjPI465Ue WB_5Oo?QKVDNlH]JDnJ^0T]aP FIODK0iGbeeEdmiUakQ>W1Fh;lWn`0YLDI
Xref: prodigy.net alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt:477961

What amazes me is the persistent blindness about the subject,
steadfastly denying reality. It's like some people never go to a
store and look at the software section. It's not just games, it's
practically every application there is for a personal computer.

Well there's your problem ...

Almost nobody who runs linux buys applications for it in "a store". The
vast majority of software for linux is open source AND free. I suppose
somebody could burn (a linux application) to a CD/DVD, wrap it up pretty and
put it on a store shelf. A couple of problems with that, though. First,
nobody would pay for what they can download free in a minute or so. Second,
even if you were stupid enough to pay for free software, you'd end up with
something that is outdated anyway, if you installed it from CD-Rom. Linux
apps. are constantly being improved. If you downloaded (a linux
application) yesterday, you don't have the current version.

Nope, the only thing that is holding linux back is not enough (high-end,
current) games are ported to linux. Everything else is available for linux.
But OF COURSE you won't find linux applications on store shelves. Some
people do prefer to buy linux distros (the various linux OS versions) in
stores, but most linux users really don't understand such silly behavior.
-Dave

 

[Mike T.]

Considering the fact you don't even know what I'm talking about, you
have no idea what it's like.

Remain ignorant if you wish, John. Anybody who'd dare to do what you
propose to do in a windows environment would find the process much easier to
complete on a linux environment. In fact, I'd be shocked if what you are
trying to do in windows hasn't already been done by someone in linux. There
are literally millions of applications written for linux. Only a small
sample ship with most distros. Punch the right key words into a search
engine, and you could probably find the software you are trying to write was
written well over a decade ago, and will run on most current distros of
linux just fine. -Dave

 

[Rod Speed]

John Doe wrote

It's not being blind to reality that is the problem, it's about disagreement
on reason for why things are the way they are and what needs to be
done about it. Everybody knows MS has a dominant position on the
desktop. The question is do they have this position due to abusing
their monopoly power or is the competition just bad at marketing
their product to the extent it can't compete? I think it's the latter.

Nope, the problem is MUCH more fundamental than that.

The real problem is that the bleeding edge of new technology ALWAYS
ensures that their products work with the dominant platform, XP and
Vista in the future, and that MS really does have a clue about a user
interface that the average mug punter is confortable with.

The other very fundamental problem is that hardly anyone actually
installs an OS anymore, they get it preinstalled with the hardware.
Thats essentially something that no distro can do anything about
and there wont ever be too many system suppliers that ever
bother to even have an alternative of a preinstalled linux on offer.

Another very fundamental problem that still cripples the linux
market is that even the stupidest mug punter can easily add
whatever software they want that didnt come with the hardware
they bought, and that that is MUCH harder with any linux distro
for that level of user.

Maybe 10 years ago MS abused it's power with Netscape
and others to the extent they couldn't compete equally with
MS software but that's just not happening today.

Basically because it doesnt need to.

And computer makers are free to ship machines with Linspire on
them instead of Windows if they please, nobody is stopping them.

And a few of the extremely low end operations actually do
that, essentially because it allows them to lower their price.

It's all about demand and consumer preferences, not monopoly power.

And some very fundamental problems for the small
fry once one OS become so dominant in the market.

 

[J. Conners]

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:21:55 -0800, JAD wrote:


<all snipped>

Your non-argument has degenerated into nonsense.



--

___________________________________________________________________
Jack Conners

Windows *is* User-Friendly. It just isn't Idiot-Friendly or
Stupid-Friendly!!!

WindowsXP

 

[J. Conners]

You are aware that there are literally hundreds of distros of linux, and
that some of them are specifically aimed at former windows users who don't
want to learn linux, right? Why would the linux geeks care to make
something user friendly that is already user friendly?


The last three distros of linux I tried were all significantly easier to
install and configure than Windows XP ever will be. -Dave

Case in point, Xubuntu 6.10. I've installed a lot of them, this one was
unbelievable. Even with the obscure piece of equipment I put it on, it
found all hardware except the graphics card. For that it gave me a list
and I chose the appropriate device. case closed. Never a command line
entry required, all performed in the GUI.



--

___________________________________________________________________
Jack Conners

Linux *is* User-Friendly. It just isn't Idiot-Friendly or Stupid-Friendly!!!

XUbuntu 6.10
'Linux for Human Beings'

 

[Gremenbulin]

You are aware that there are literally hundreds of distros of linux, and
that some of them are specifically aimed at former windows users who don't
want to learn linux, right? Why would the linux geeks care to make
something user friendly that is already user friendly?

A lot of what non-geeks will perceive as user-unfriendliness is
inability to cope with closed-source hardware. Well, of course,
it would be unreasonable to expect linux to cope
with closed-source hardware, but what does Jo(e) Average
care about that?

 

[Gremenbulin]

Nope, the problem is MUCH more fundamental than that.

The real problem is that the bleeding edge of new technology ALWAYS
ensures that their products work with the dominant platform, XP and
Vista in the future, and that MS really does have a clue about a user
interface that the average mug punter is confortable with.

The other very fundamental problem is that hardly anyone actually
installs an OS anymore, they get it preinstalled with the hardware.
Thats essentially something that no distro can do anything about
and there wont ever be too many system suppliers that ever
bother to even have an alternative of a preinstalled linux on offer.

Another very fundamental problem that still cripples the linux
market is that even the stupidest mug punter can easily add
whatever software they want that didnt come with the hardware
they bought, and that that is MUCH harder with any linux distro
for that level of user.

Hmm. Well, Ubuntu have made that pretty easy. And some
distros come with everything but the kitchen sink (SuSE 10.1 is
6 CDs).

 

[Tomcat (Tom)]

And some very fundamental problems for the small
fry once one OS become so dominant in the market.

But isn't it hard in any market for competitors to enter once one
company is dominant?

Regardless of the court rulings, I just don't think the fact that there
are significant barriers to entry necessarily mean a company has
monopoly power to the extent that it needs to be controlled.

Look at the game console industry. Sony was extremely dominant with
the Playstation 1 & 2. One might even consider them to have been a
monopoly. Developers were developing games for the Playstation and
buyers were buying the Playstation because it was seen as the console
of the futue. But Microsoft broke through that barrier into the gaming
market with a lot of hard work (and cash) and good marketing. It took
time but it happened. I know the OS market is much more complex but
there are still similarities.

 

[Matt]

Nope, the only thing that is holding linux back is not enough (high-end,
current) games are ported to linux. Everything else is available for linux.

I think a shockwave flashplayer would make a big difference for web
browsing.

 

[Crispy Critter]

http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/420/1

 

[Rod Speed]

Hmm. Well, Ubuntu have made that pretty easy.

Nope, most obviously with hardware that has no linux support.

That can be something as basic as a current
printer, in spades with the multifuction centers.

And some distros come with everything
but the kitchen sink (SuSE 10.1 is 6 CDs).

No support for most digital TV capture cards for starters.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

But isn't it hard in any market for competitors
to enter once one company is dominant?

Nope, most obviously mp3 players. All it takes is price.

Linux cant fly on the personal desktop even when its free.

Regardless of the court rulings, I just don't think the fact that there
are significant barriers to entry necessarily mean a company has
monopoly power to the extent that it needs to be controlled.
Sure.

Look at the game console industry. Sony was
extremely dominant with the Playstation 1 & 2.
Yep.

One might even consider them to have been a monopoly.
Nope.

Developers were developing games for the Playstation and
buyers were buying the Playstation because it was seen as
the console of the futue. But Microsoft broke through that
barrier into the gaming market with a lot of hard work (and
cash) and good marketing. It took time but it happened.

And that didnt work in the OS market when an operation
like IBM with extremely deep pockets indeed tried it.

I know the OS market is much more
complex but there are still similarities.

Its actually vastly more difficult a market to break into
once the market dominant player has such a dominance.

The most you ever see is a bit of leakage at the edges like
with the Palm and with a few who's bigotry about MS is so
rabid that they wouldnt be seen dead running an MS OS
even if that means they cant do what they want to do at all.

 

[Rod Speed]

http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/420/1

MIndless irrelevant waffle from end to end.

 

[ToolPackinMama]

In my opinion, you are welcome to discuss your ignorant ideas about
Windows versus Linux here, but you can find much livelier pointless
babbling in a Linux or Windows advocacy group.

Linux vs. Windows group.

Is there such a newsgroup?

 

[ToolPackinMama]

So do you think the thousands of successful companies that are
Microsoft Service Providers, and the thousands of people that are
Microsoft certified professionals, and the millions of people that are
happy Windows users, are all either secretly anti-microsoft or else
just plain stupid?

ROFLMAO!

Do you imagine that ~everybody~ who is a MS user is a MS supporter cos
they tried the competition, and PREFER Microsoft products?

 

[ToolPackinMama]

The last three distros of linux I tried were all significantly easier to
install and configure than Windows XP ever will be.

Ditto. My only complaint is driver support is spotty. Linux is
honestly all anyone would need if all they do is browse the web, and use
office applications.

That's 90% of all PC users (IMHO).

 

[Matt]

Linux is
honestly all anyone would need if all they do is browse the web,

there's no shockwave flashplayer for linux

 

[Rod Speed]

Mike T. wrote

Ditto. My only complaint is driver support is spotty.

Then it clearly isnt anything like 'significantly easier to
install and configure than Windows XP ever will be'

Linux is honestly all anyone would need if all they do is browse the web, and use office
applications.

Wrong again, particularly those who get many office docs from others.

That's 90% of all PC users (IMHO).

Its nothing like that. Hordes do other stuff, if only use their digital cameras.

And heaps of those will want to use modern printers
which have pathetic or non existent linux drivers.

 

[Crispy Critter]

MIndless irrelevant waffle from end to end.

You're either with us or against us.