Switch to DVD backup media from CD?

[Rod Speed]

Not specifically, except for tracking which is which, as I have
nothing more sophisticated than a microscope for failed disc
analysis (which is not very helpful). So far, the Taiyo Yuden
Japanese CDRs, which are identified as cyanine (type 1) dye,
are the only ones that haven't completely failed on me. I
started using these around 1998, and most are still reading
well, though some are starting to read slowly at the outer
edges of the disc, which is a sign of impending failure.

The discs considered archival back in the old days (Mitsui,
Ricoh/KAO, Kodak Gold/Silver - Phthalocyanine (Type 5)) have
all died or are very near dead. I mostly used these prior to 1998,

I havent got anything like that result, no failures at all in fact
over that time. That was with an HP 7200i burner initially.

I mostly used Kodak Golds while they were still available
and then used the purportedly archival qualify Kodaks after
they stopped being available. And used some of the others too.

What burner were you using at that time ?

when I switched over to the TYs almost exclusively due to failures.
I also started recording at half max burner speed, so the post-98
data has different initial conditions than earlier data. Likewise,
discs identified as cyanine (type 0) all failed early on, and include
such bottom-feeder manufacturers as CMC, so I assume there's
a big difference between cyanine types 0 and 1.

It's made much more complicated by the fact that dye layers
and reflective coatings are constantly being changed by the
manufacturers, and even if my 2000 TY discs are still fine,
it doesn't mean that TY discs I burn today will be good in
5 years. Accelerated testing results are useless here, IMO.

I just assume all CDRs and DVDs I burn will fail somewhere
between 2 and 5 years out, and it saves me quite a lot of worry.

I did use dupes for anything that mattered, and never lost any.

 

[J. Clarke]

Not specifically, except for tracking which is which, as I have
nothing more sophisticated than a microscope for failed disc analysis
(which is not very helpful). So far, the Taiyo Yuden Japanese CDRs,
which are identified as cyanine (type 1) dye, are the only ones that
haven't completely failed on me. I started using these around 1998,
and most are still reading well, though some are starting to read
slowly at the outer edges of the disc, which is a sign of impending
failure.

The discs considered archival back in the old days (Mitsui, Ricoh/KAO,
Kodak Gold/Silver - Phthalocyanine (Type 5)) have all died or are very
near dead.

That could be a writer problem--pthalocyanine is a lot pickier about the
burner than the other types.

I mostly used these prior to 1998, when I switched over to
the TYs almost exclusively due to failures. I also started recording
at half max burner speed, so the post-98 data has different initial
conditions than earlier data. Likewise, discs identified as cyanine
(type 0) all failed early on, and include such bottom-feeder
manufacturers as CMC, so I assume there's a big difference between
cyanine types 0 and 1.

Do you have any azos in the mix?

 

[Pan]

I don't do this, but there are several options I've come up with. Mine
is all personal data, so time and budget is more of an issue than
corporate data. I also distrust online storage, and my data's big
enough to not be very practical for that.

Yes, it seems that we would have the same set of practical problems.

- Good protection could be had by dropping off disc sets at a safe
deposit box. This takes time and energy, and the data's not available
nights and weekends, but it's secure, and you could leave the last 3-4
backups there. You could do this with removable HDs in cushioned cases
as well, and probably save yourself a ton of time feeding discs. A set
of 4-5 HDs would provide lots of redundancy and wouldn't cost all that
much.

Good idea, I never thought of using deposit boxes for that. It's great for
long-term storage of data that you don't want to lose. As you say, it
would be less effective for data that's updated frequently though.

- An easier bet would be to package them up and mail them to a friend.
This could be made very simple with fixed-price express mailers or
knowing the postage cost; just load up discs, seal the package, and drop
it at the post office or give to the mailman. If it's a good friend, it
would be available when you need it. I wouldn't do this with HDs, due
to the handling risks, but you could work up the packaging if you
wanted. You'd need to worry about encryption if your data is sensitive.

Yep, I have thought of this idea, but just for small amounts of critical
data to be transmitted over the Internet. Posting CD/DVD's over the
postal service could be a good idea though for much larger backups and you
could afford to do this quite frequently (although I only have a monthly
schedule for large backups anyway). I would agree that posting HD's would
be extremely unwise. Encryption would almost certainly be an issue for
personal data and you'd need strong encryption, but normal backup
information could go unencrypted.

There are lots of other ways to deal with it, but this second is what
I'd do if I were going to start, since my safe deposit boxes are about
20 minutes away, and I don't think I'd be reliable at dropping them off.

Agreed. Thanks for the ideas, very interesting.

Regards,

Pan

 

[Pan]

Many keep the personal backups at
work and the work backups at home.

That's logical yeah.

Not hard to find someone local who is prepared to swap
backups either, providing offsite backups for both.

Yep, I've asked a couple of people previously if they might be interested
in a mutual off-site backup. Didn't generate much interest surprisingly,
but I'm sure somebody will eventually be interested

Regards,

Pan

 

[Pan]

Not specifically, except for tracking which is which, as I have
nothing more sophisticated than a microscope for failed disc analysis
(which is not very helpful). So far, the Taiyo Yuden Japanese CDRs,
which are identified as cyanine (type 1) dye, are the only ones that
haven't completely failed on me. I started using these around 1998,
and most are still reading well, though some are starting to read
slowly at the outer edges of the disc, which is a sign of impending
failure.

Interestingly enough, all my earlier CD backups were placed on CD-RW
discs, not CD-R. As far as I'm aware (I've suffered no reading problems so
far), all the discs I burned, including those six years old are still in
fully working order. I used some cheap discs then as well. I've heard that
older CD-RW discs couldn't be constructed in the same low-quality way as
CD-R discs. Anybody know if this is true? I seem to of had great
reliability with these discs.

Regards,

Pan

 

[Arno Wagner]

I don't do this, but there are several options I've come up with.
Mine is all personal data, so time and budget is more of an issue than
corporate data. I also distrust online storage, and my data's big
enough to not be very practical for that.

- Good protection could be had by dropping off disc sets at a safe
deposit box. This takes time and energy, and the data's not available
nights and weekends, but it's secure, and you could leave the last 3-4
backups there. You could do this with removable HDs in cushioned
cases as well, and probably save yourself a ton of time feeding discs.
A set of 4-5 HDs would provide lots of redundancy and wouldn't cost
all that much.

I did that for about 2 years with MODs. The small standard boxes
(at least in Germany) are not high enough for cushioned 3.5" disks
but should work fine for notebook disks. Effort was reasonably low
and the box was very cheap, since they offerd them as additional
service and not to make money. There were some dire warnings about
the consequences of loosing the keys though.

I have stopped this now, since my home Internet connection is fast
enough to copy stuff to my computer at work (which micht not be
possible in every company, but with the place I work for it is fine).

- An easier bet would be to package them up and mail them to a friend.
This could be made very simple with fixed-price express mailers or
knowing the postage cost; just load up discs, seal the package, and
drop it at the post office or give to the mailman. If it's a good
friend, it would be available when you need it. I wouldn't do this
with HDs, due to the handling risks, but you could work up the
packaging if you wanted. You'd need to worry about encryption if your
data is sensitive.

Should also work with notebook HDDs, cince they are much more shock
resistant and lighter. Maybe in a nice external USB case.

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

Neil Maxwell wrote

Interestingly enough, all my earlier CD backups were placed on CD-RW
discs, not CD-R. As far as I'm aware (I've suffered no reading problems so
far), all the discs I burned, including those six years old are still in
fully working order. I used some cheap discs then as well. I've heard that
older CD-RW discs couldn't be constructed in the same low-quality way as
CD-R discs. Anybody know if this is true?

The technology is potentially less reliable over the longer
term, but I dont know if anyone has actually tested that
carefully to see if the theory and the practice match up.

I didnt use CDRW all that much myself,
tho I use DVD RW almost excusively now.

I seem to of had great reliability with these discs.

I did too with CDRs. I havent seen anyone with as bad a
result as Neil reported, likely the burner was the problem.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

That's logical yeah.

Yep, I've asked a couple of people previously if they might be interested
in a mutual off-site backup. Didn't generate much interest surprisingly,
but I'm sure somebody will eventually be interested

I'm on the other side of the world, so that isnt very useful |-)

Dont you have someone you can just post them to, one way ?

 

[Alexander Grigoriev]

A cheap DVD player (Apex) was damaging my disks that way. The optical
assembly cable was bending in such way that in some positions it was
touching the disks and causing ring scratches..

 

[Alexander Grigoriev]

Since the RW phase-changing layer is not subject of fading, it's not a
surprise.

 

[J. Clarke]

Ah, this is interesting. I wasn't aware of any of this. Thanks for the
information.

I must confess that my belief in DVD's was severely shattered when I
went to watch one of my DVD film discs and discovered that it wouldn't
play. After examining the disc, I was shocked to find a number of very
prominent small circles overlapping on the bottom-side of the disc, almost
like the disc had been physically scratched over and over in perfect
circles by UFO's!!! One other disc in the same collection had been
similarly affected. At first, I thought it was a physical defect in one of
the DVD drives, so I had to go through every other disc looking to see
what else was damaged. However, I found nothing at all. A bit later on, I
discovered that the damage was caused by DVD-rot and that the top surface
of the disc had also misted up. I managed to get the collection replaced,
but this was a real-wake-up when it came to DVD's.

DVD-rot is corrosion of the aluminum reflective layer on early disks. It
doesn't cause "small circles overlapping the bottom-side of the disk".

And rather than replacing the disk, just polish them out--that's why there's
thick polycarbonate there.

 

[Pan]

I'm on the other side of the world, so that isnt very useful |-)

Dont you have someone you can just post them to, one way ?

Almost certainly I only asked about Internet-based off-site backup
previously, but I could involve the post too for larger backups. I haven't
found anybody yet who is interested in doing it, but I'm sure I will soon

Regards,

Pan

 

[Pan]

Since the RW phase-changing layer is not subject of fading, it's not a
surprise.

Really? Does that therefore mean that CD-RW is a better bet for backups
than CD-R?

Regards,

Pan

 

[Pan]

The technology is potentially less reliable over the longer
term, but I dont know if anyone has actually tested that
carefully to see if the theory and the practice match up.

Which technology are you referring to here? CD-RW or CD-R. How is it
potentially less reliable?

I didnt use CDRW all that much myself,
tho I use DVD RW almost excusively now.

I must confess, when I initially started burning CD backups, I'd heard of
problems with CD-R disc problems on some media and that CD-RW was not
affected because it was impossible to make a CD-RW work if it was built in
the same low-quality ways as CD-R's. So I stuck to CD-RW's for ages,
before doubt was called into being about the reliability of CD-RW compared
to CD-R. I then swapped to good brand CD-R discs. Now I don't know what to
believe

I did too with CDRs. I havent seen anyone with as bad a
result as Neil reported, likely the burner was the problem.

I've learnt anything is possible in computing over the years

Regards,

Pan

 

[Pan]

A cheap DVD player (Apex) was damaging my disks that way. The optical
assembly cable was bending in such way that in some positions it was
touching the disks and causing ring scratches..

I sincerely hope that was not the cause here, because the offending player
must still be in the house if that's the case. However, no other discs
seem to be affected, while two from the same collection were marked. In
addition, I have heard that incidents of DVD-Rot are known to affect this
particular disc set. Therefore, I suspect that it was indeed a breakdown
of the disc layers, the result of a flaw in the construction used to
produce the collection in question. At least I hope so

Regards,

Pan

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Which technology are you referring to here? CD-RW or CD-R.
CDRW

How is it potentially less reliable?

Forget the detail.

I must confess, when I initially started burning CD backups, I'd
heard of problems with CD-R disc problems on some media and
that CD-RW was not affected because it was impossible to make
a CD-RW work if it was built in the same low-quality ways as
CD-R's. So I stuck to CD-RW's for ages, before doubt was called
into being about the reliability of CD-RW compared to CD-R. I then
swapped to good brand CD-R discs. Now I don't know what to believe

I havent seen any problem with longer term life of CDRs,
and only use CDRWs when its likely the burn will be
useless, mostly when debugging bootable CDs etc.

The dinosaur in the kitchen doesnt like them either,
which is another good reason for not using them much.

I should really replace that incredibly ancient cd drive with
a decent modern dvd player, just so I can put the very
large bootable DVDs like the Super WinPE DVDs in it.

I havent gotten around to it mainly since the dinosaur
may well be replaced by a cheap laptop which would
give more portability and capability as well. Its the
dinosaur in the kitchen and I really need DVD play
capability for when bottling the beer which is a tad boring.

I've learnt anything is possible in computing over the years

Dunno, have fun farting your way to the moon |-)

 

[Neil Maxwell]

I havent got anything like that result, no failures at all in fact
over that time. That was with an HP 7200i burner initially.

I mostly used Kodak Golds while they were still available
and then used the purportedly archival qualify Kodaks after
they stopped being available. And used some of the others too.

What burner were you using at that time ?

I started out with the Smart And Friendly 2600+ 2x, which was a
rebadged JVC, and was a competent, if unexceptional, burner, with the
exception of the rail lube problem they developed later in life.

I originally thought it was to blame for the early deaths, but I
changed to various other drives as I upgraded to avoid the problems,
including a SCSI Plextor (to try to avoid the cheap-drive syndrome),
then an IDE Teac , an IDE Plextor, and so on. All were drives
considered to be good in the marketplace according to the wisdom of
the time, and all have been responsible for dead or dying CDRs, except
the recent few year's worth of various Liteon CDR and NEC DVDR drives,
when I've been using almost all TY discs and burning at much slower
speeds.

I live in the moderate climate of San Jose, CA, and the failed discs
were stored in sleeves, out of sleeves, in jewel cases, with labels,
without labels, in dark drawers with other CDs, in stacks, you name
it. I've been able to find no correlations at all except for layer
chemistry and burn speed.

It's possible there's something in my specific climate or household
that's contributing to making my problem worse than usual, but I have
no control data for that. In any case, once I started looking around,
I realized that CDR failure was much more common than most people
thought.

Even if my failures are unusually frequent, there's absolutely no
doubt that burned CDRs fatigue and die, and their lifetimes are
nowhere near the 20 to 200 years originally estimated from accelerated
testing. I've seen far too many posts from people who can't read
their burned DVDs and CDRs, and I try to help raise awareness when I
can. Folks can do what they want with the information, as always.

 

[Rod Speed]

I started out with the Smart And Friendly 2600+ 2x, which was
a rebadged JVC, and was a competent, if unexceptional, burner,
with the exception of the rail lube problem they developed later in life.

I originally thought it was to blame for the early deaths, but I
changed to various other drives as I upgraded to avoid the problems,
including a SCSI Plextor (to try to avoid the cheap-drive syndrome),
then an IDE Teac , an IDE Plextor, and so on. All were drives
considered to be good in the marketplace according to the wisdom
of the time, and all have been responsible for dead or dying CDRs,
Weird.

except the recent few year's worth of various Liteon CDR and NEC DVDR drives,

Yeah, I changed to a Liteon CDR after the HP started
to have a problem reading some asian manufactured
pirate CDs and never did much good with music CDs.

when I've been using almost all TY discs

I gave up on the Kodaks when they started to become
hard to get, used whatever was cheap without being
the dregs of the market, and Liteons for 100.

and burning at much slower speeds.

Never needed to bother with that.

I live in the moderate climate of San Jose, CA,

I live inland with texas inland equivalent weather, with
some days over 40C in summer and quite cold winters.

and the failed discs were stored in sleeves, out of
sleeves, in jewel cases, with labels, without labels,
in dark drawers with other CDs, in stacks, you name it.

Yeah, me too, tho I have never used labels or dark drawers,
in fact some were even in the sun in winter in jewel cases.

I've been able to find no correlations at all
except for layer chemistry and burn speed.

It's possible there's something in my specific climate
or household that's contributing to making my problem
worse than usual, but I have no control data for that.

Yeah, I expect its just the burners you
used until you started using the Liteons.

In any case, once I started looking around, I realized that CDR
failure was much more common than most people thought.

Certainly are for you, but I've never seen anything like that myself.

Even if my failures are unusually frequent, there's absolutely no doubt
that burned CDRs fatigue and die, and their lifetimes are nowhere
near the 20 to 200 years originally estimated from accelerated testing.

Time will tell on that.

I've seen far too many posts from people
who can't read their burned DVDs and CDRs,

You dont really see all that many who cant.

and I try to help raise awareness when I can. Folks
can do what they want with the information, as always.

They can indeed.

 

[Yasir Gr8]

Yes its true DVDs r as reliable as CDs so go ahead pal as I am doing
the same and it arise no problems.

 

[Pan]

Yes its true DVDs r as reliable as CDs so go ahead pal as I am doing the
same and it arise no problems.

Thanks for the information, good to hear from a range of DVD writing users


Regards,

Pan