Stand Alone EXE

[Jim Hubbard]

But if you price it out of most programmers' reach, it never becomes well
known to the programming community. It may make sales, but it won't make
history.

Thinstall is actually making history. It is the most stable method of
distributing desktop applications in the world.

If it were $99, I'd use it for the demo version of one of my apps, so that
users could download and try it without any awareness of .NET.

Not to minimize your observation, but if it were $99, it wouldn't be the
great product it is today. (It takes more money to build a Mercedes than a
Yugo.)

As a small business myself, I understand the financial constraints that
small businesses must face. However, you also must weigh the benefits of
the product (which are substantial in this case) against the price.

I think it's worth it. It will reduce your installation and maintenance
customer service calls to almost nil. if you write software for a living or
distribute software as a major product, it pays itself in short order.

Jim Hubbard

 

[J L]

Hi Jim,
I appreciate your enthusiasm for the company and the product. I too
was impressed very much with the Thinstall concept when I first
encountered it over a month ago. In fact we had some threads on it at
that time.

And I have no doubs about Jonathan's integrity and desire to produce a
top-rate product. I only question his business model and pricing
structure. If he can make a go of it without the programming community
who are expressing thier interest here but can not afford his tariff,
then I say...good for him. But if it were me I would seriously look at
the market and reconsider. And if the product is so complicated that
the level of users here is not adequate, then for sure he needs to
review his product design, documentation or both. From what I read on
his site, it did not seem that complicated (at least for most of the
applications I would be creating).

And my last thought is that he has stirred some good interest which
may create strong competitive pressures in the future.

Just my 2cents worth,
John

 

[Jim Hubbard]

Updates to .NET have distinct version numbers (already 1.0 vs. 1.1) and
software is tied to a specific one; you can have both installed on the
same machine. Ending "DLL Hell" was a specific goal of .NET.

Don't delude yourself for one minute that Microsoft will upgrade the version
for every patch. It won't happen.

And if it does......may God help us all. I don't want a dozen .Net
frameworks to run 2 dozen apps.

Surely only if you write in a part of the Registry that requires
administrator privileges to access.

You are correct. But, unfortunately, if you are distributing applications
to the general public, you cannot be sure that they have any .Net framework
installed - let alone the version that your application needs.

At a minimum, this requires a setup application to determine the user's
needs. For many, that means that the application cannot be installed
because they may not have Administrative rights to do any installation (no
matter how safe the application may be).

One way that Microsoft could get everyone up to speed would be a mass OS
giveaway. It'd be akin to giving everyone a fresh start - including
Microsoft. They could retire all older desktops immediately and we'd all
have a common starting point.

Like that's gonna happen......

At the very least, they could make all .Net frameworks an automatic install.
Since they can run side by side, this should be a no-brainer.

Jim Hubbard

 

[Jim Hubbard]

John,

Thanks for your views on Thinstall. I'll pass them along to Jonathan
and the JIT team.

Maybe he can do something different with the pricing scale like what
Microsoft does with its products.....give away 2 tech support calls, then
charge for the rest.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Jim Hubbard

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Thinstall doesn't change behavior. Once the EXE is created, it does not
change unless you tell it to update itself or the files it contains.

I meant that you'd have to really trust that Thinstall behaves
*exactly* the same as the normal .NET framework. Given the complexities
of reflection, CAS, dynamically generating code etc, that sounds like a
difficult thing to trust.

Or, of course, you could double your testing effort.

 

[David Pendrey]

Doesn't mean they can't sell a version without the support, only the
packaged help files. Then forums could be started up for people to help
eachother and it would all work out. They would get much more sales albeit
at a lower price so they could still make a profit and many more people
would be happy. Once you get a few users who can use a program correctly,
then get them to set up a forum you tend to not need all that much tech
support.

 

[Brett]

Thinstall is actually making history. It is the most stable method of
distributing desktop applications in the world.


Not to minimize your observation, but if it were $99, it wouldn't be the
great product it is today. (It takes more money to build a Mercedes than
a Yugo.)

Bad parallel. A Mercedes doesn't require you to stop at the dealership
everyday to find out how to work the radio and air conditioning. For that
fact, neither does a Yugo. Why? User interface.

Brett

 

[Rob Nicholson]

First, you never have your application's files overwritten (i.e. DLL

Hell). Second, your users don't need administrative rights to run the
application. Third, your users don't need the .Net framework installed.

Now this does sound useful!

Thinstall even creates a virtual registry on-the-fly that your application
uses so that there are no changes to the users registry.

Even better.

Thinstall is used by a huge host of companies (like Quickbooks),
government agencies and every branch of the armed forces.

I'm not surprised - sounds like a user's dream - don't have to ask IT to get
involved. Of course, IT may take a dim view to running untested code -
rightly in some cases.

Rob.

 

[Rob Nicholson]

I was very excited about Thinstall until I got this pricing from

Jonathan:

Me too LOL!

afford that price. A few hundred dollars and it is tempting. I believe
Jonathan should rethink the possible/probable price/volume curve if he
did price this aggressively...let's see, how many millions of .Net
programmers?...

Yes, about the same price as InstallShield maybe.

Rob.

 

[Rob Nicholson]

Yep - it's still pretty bad here in the way of dial-up. Same with cell

phones but that's another newsgroup.

Ahh well if you will decide to slightly modify the existing GSM standard,
then what do you expect?

Rob.

 

[Guest]

Just my two cents...If I had DialUp, I'd rather download a 20mb file once
than a 14mb file for each application. Neither of which do I really want to
download on dialup! Also, the .Net Framework seems to me to be backward
compatible as all of my applications seem to work whenever I replace the .Net
Framwork with the latest version.

 

[Brett]

Ahh well if you will decide to slightly modify the existing GSM standard,
then what do you expect?

Rob.

Ok Rob. Sure thing. What do I need an adapter, a different antenna for my
cell phone? Can I pick those up at Radio Shack or Target?

 

[Brett]

Thinstall doesn't change behavior. Once the EXE is created, it does not
change unless you tell it to update itself or the files it contains.

Cool thing about this is that when Microsoft issues a Service Pack that
scerws up something, your Thinstall app is not affected.

If you create a Thinstall app that works, it will always work unless
Microsoft goes and changes the way windows works at a core
level......which is unlikely.

Jim Hubbard

Jim, we get the idea. You really love Thinstall. It's the greatest thing
since spit. However, every one here doesn't have $4k to shell out on an
installer. We'd rather make $4k than spend it on something we feel isn't
worth $4k. Also, I doubt any one is going to enjoy staying on the phone
with Thinstall tech support for a lengthy phone sessions of how to do this
and that (As you more or less alluded to earlier).

Your energy would probably be better spend in a marketing campaign to
fortune 500 companies. As for Thinstall changing its behavior, I wouldn't
place all my eggs in one basket. If Thinstall goes under, quite a few
Thinstall customers are going to be left holding the bag. Chances are MS
won't go under before any of my apps retire. I'll place my bets on MS and
the bigger download because at least I know they will always be there. At
least under Longhorn.

No attack on you Jim. You just keep holding this carrot in front of every
one and don't seem to realize it really is out of our reach.

Brett

 

[Michael A. Covington]

Bad parallel. A Mercedes doesn't require you to stop at the dealership
everyday to find out how to work the radio and air conditioning. For that
fact, neither does a Yugo. Why? User interface.

WELL SAID!

 

[Jim Hubbard]

Jim, we get the idea. You really love Thinstall. It's the greatest thing
since spit. However, every one here doesn't have $4k to shell out on an
installer. We'd rather make $4k than spend it on something we feel isn't
worth $4k. Also, I doubt any one is going to enjoy staying on the phone
with Thinstall tech support for a lengthy phone sessions of how to do this
and that (As you more or less alluded to earlier).

Your energy would probably be better spend in a marketing campaign to
fortune 500 companies. As for Thinstall changing its behavior, I wouldn't
place all my eggs in one basket. If Thinstall goes under, quite a few
Thinstall customers are going to be left holding the bag. Chances are MS
won't go under before any of my apps retire. I'll place my bets on MS and
the bigger download because at least I know they will always be there. At
least under Longhorn.

Taken from http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P454 ...

--------------------------------
"The study, released this week by technology consultant AssetMetrix, found
that more than 80% of companies still have some machines using Windows 95 or
Windows 98. Of those companies still using the older operating systems, an
average of 39% of desktops were running either Windows 95 or Windows 98. "We
found a significant occurrence of Windows 9x," said Steve O'Halloran,
managing director for the research arm of AssetMetrix. The study looked at
372,129 PCs from 670 companies ranging in size from 10 to 49,000 employees.

The size of the business did not seem to dictate how prevalent the older
operating systems were, with larger companies as likely as smaller ones to
have a high prevalence of older operating systems. In total, Windows 95 made
up 14.7% of operating systems, and Windows 98 made up 12.5%. Windows 2000
was the most common OS, running on slightly more than half of machines,
while its predecessor, Windows NT4, was still used on 13.3% of desktops.
Windows XP, the most current version of Windows, was found on just 6.6% of
the machines. Consumers are also still widely using Windows 98. Google
reported that 29% of searches done in September came from machines running
Windows 98, as compared with 38% from Windows XP-based PCs and 20% from
Windows 2000 machines. "
--------------------------------

When Longhorn fianally appears, this will not change much. There will still
be a large portion of PCs that are not "up-to-date". This is a major reason
to use a product like Thinstall. You can't make everyone upgrade (because
of price and administrative constraints) so you have to work with what they
have.

Financial constraints are eliminated (from the software's end-user
standpoint) because they don't need to upgrade their OS to use your
Thinstall applications.

Administrative issues are more quickly dealt with because they can try a
Thinstall app without fear that it will overwrite another application's DLLs
and because eliminating a Thinstall application is as easy as deleting the
EXE from the user's hard drive.

No attack on you Jim. You just keep holding this carrot in front of every
one and don't seem to realize it really is out of our reach.

I really do understand. I never meant to get into a big discussion about
Thinstall, but when I find something that helps me I like to let other know
about it - whether it's Thinstal or Barts PE or whatever.

I've been helped a lot by people in these newsgroups and I try to give a
little back when I can.

Jim Hubbard

 

[Jim Hubbard]

Just my two cents...If I had DialUp, I'd rather download a 20mb file once
than a 14mb file for each application. Neither of which do I really want
to
download on dialup! Also, the .Net Framework seems to me to be backward
compatible as all of my applications seem to work whenever I replace the
.Net
Framwork with the latest version.

When you add a new version of the .Net framework, you are not really
replacing the existing .Net framework. Microsoft created the .Net
frameworks to run side-by-side. That way you can still run 1.0 and 1.1
application on a pc that needs 2.0 for newer applications.

What you may find is that if you re-compile your 1.0 applications with 1.1
or 2.0 you may need to do some code tweaking to adjust for changes in the
framework.

Also keep an eye on the bugs found in the .Net frameworks. It seems 1 or 2
A DAY are coming out, with 1,596 so far in the .Net 1.1 framework
(http://www.kbalertz.com/technology_3.aspx). You can get on a free news
letter at KBAlertz website at http://www.kbalertz.com/default.aspx.

I don't know how anybody develops in .Net successfully without a site like
this.

Jim Hubbard

 

[Jim Hubbard]

WELL SAID!

Only if you aren't familiar with the interfaces of a Yugo and a
Mercedes......

The major components like the steering wheel, brake pedal and gas pedal are
similar enough to allow anyone to get the basic functionality out of both
vehicles. However, the Mercedes has many tweaks and added options that the
Yugo does not. In this case, to get the most out of the Mercedes you need
more instruction on it's use.

Thinstall has a very familiar user interface and running the application in
a very basic mode can be done without so much as reading the manual. But,
when your application has it's own special needs you need more specialized
instructions.

While the JIT team has provided several examples and an extensive help
manual, JIT customers are probably not that different than most other
customers and will call tech support before reading the manual. Fortunately
for JIT's customers, they don't just say "Read the &*()^%$ manual" - they
stay with you until you understand how to use the product to accomplish the
special needs unique to your situation - like a good Mercedes dealer will.

If you want to go simple with Thinstall, you can. If you need help, they
are there.

To provide this amount of customer support costs more money than to provide
unsupported applications. And, businesses demand support for their
applications. So, I agree with Jonathan. Charge what it takes to take care
of people in the way that they expect to be cared for as customers -
especially as business customers who have customers of their own.

Businesses CANNOT afford to not have the answers they need right at their
fingertips. With JIT, they have those answers when they need them - not via
some email that makes you wait 72 hours for a reply (which may or may not be
the answer you needed).

If you write software for a living, Thinstall is great. If you write an app
once in a while or just for fun, it probably isn't for you.

Thinstall is a serious application for serious application development. It
is not for everyone.

Jim Hubbard

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

When Longhorn fianally appears, this will not change much. There will still
be a large portion of PCs that are not "up-to-date". This is a major reason
to use a product like Thinstall. You can't make everyone upgrade (because
of price and administrative constraints) so you have to work with what they
have.

How does Thinstall help here? While Thinstall is available for Windows
95, I doubt that it magically lets you run .NET 1.1 applications on
Windows 95, for example. (If it *does* effectively change your
operating system capability, I'm even more worried about the
compatibility with the real framework.)

That cuts out your financial argument too, as far as I can see - and
I'd suggest that the cost of using Thinstall (e.g. the double testing
that I mentioned before) is going to have to be passed on to the users
at some point...

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Businesses CANNOT afford to not have the answers they need right at their
fingertips. With JIT, they have those answers when they need them - not via
some email that makes you wait 72 hours for a reply (which may or may not be
the answer you needed).

Actually, I'd argue that if you're running your development in a way
that always *requires* immediate support answers, you aren't leaving
nearly enough contingency time. There will always be potential for
problems which require significant investigation, so assuming that such
problems won't happen to you is a recipe for disaster. Do you think JIT
always, always, always have the answer for every single customer
question immediately? I'd be amazed if that were the case.

Like others, I don't see why there can't be different pricing
structures - the "support at your beck and call" price for those who
need it, and the "I'm capable of reading a manual, and I'm patient when
I have a problem" price for those on a tighter budget. The cost would
still be pretty high on the testing side IMO (unless you're willing to
hit all your customers who *do* have .NET already installed with a
larger download), but I'm sure it would encourage others.

 

[Raheel A. Khan]

Hi all,

To start with, thank you all this wonderful information. I am actually new
to the concept of newsgroups and other public information services. As
strange as that may seem to the readers of this groups, I have been on the
Microsoft development platform for 5 years and rely at most on Google or
MSDN.

In any case, I have worked with the software ranging from the simplest to
excruciatingly complex, the most common mass-oriented to tailored solutions
on an enterprise level.

I agree with Jim Hubbard in supporting Jonathan's prices as well as the
readers of this newsgroup who think his prices are TOO steep. Allow me to
explain. Being in the development business, I can understand that customer
services can inflate costs. Once a customer starts receiving good support
for a product that increases his profits, there is not much more he can ask
for. As for the ridiculously large number of individual developers and small
startups out there, I'd like to address Jonathan the following. Your concept
is indeed a professional and effective one, I have to give you that.
However, the idea of decreasing costs and increasing sales volumes is not a
new one. If used right, it can benefit people such as yourself as well as
the masses. I don't believe there are any boundaries in business creativity
and the average Joe armed with a modest IQ can step up there if a few things
are in place. I say all this out of personal experience since I have been
working on three cash cows myself. This newsgroup was more than a revelation
making me next in line to offer a "no dependency" deployment solution at a
rate masses can afford. What I will be missing is your dedication to
individual customer satisfaction since I have nor the business mindset, the
academic background, or the patience to support it. But I personally believe
that a vision which inspires from both schools of thought could go as far as
monopolizing an industry. Offer high cost services to customers of
reasonable size but don't shut out the masses. Instead, provide them with a
package that is affordable without the corporate support. I completely agree
with what someone said somewhere in this thread: "Individuals and startups
are desperate enough not to care about major support". I think there is too
much talent out there. Even if a fraction of that turns into success stories
because of our products, we could achieve unmatched sales volumes while
benefiting the masses at the same time.

In conclusion, a geek minus the disability to look beyond the screen can
raise some serious hell. I personally believe that if you can write
versatile code and improvise while maintaining sensible standards, you are
already equipped to take on the software consumer market in a big way.

Like I mentioned before, I am completely oblivious to electronic public
information services given my lack of patience on the internet so the only
place to contact me is via email or phone.

Thank you all again for the helpful information and wish you all the best of
luck!!!

Regards,

Raheel A. Khan
(e-mail address removed)
+92 (300) 532-6980