F
Francis Fronzaglia
Looks can be deceiving. He's actually much younger than he sounds.
Francis
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Looks can be deceiving. He's actually much younger than he sounds.
Francis
O
Otto Sykora
I
some drivers are just called w9x
Those we can still find under w95 driver download.
So this seems to be an other proof that what HP is saying is just
bullshit.
Those drivers are also inf files with some additional files for this
or other feature.
Yes drivers for w3.1 can not be inf files refering to kernel drivers,
but sure they were made on a MS development system for that.
believe the key phrase is "no longer able" and in private discussions with
various non-HP parties I believe this is true.
some drivers are just called w9x
Those we can still find under w95 driver download.
So this seems to be an other proof that what HP is saying is just
bullshit.
Those drivers are also inf files with some additional files for this
or other feature.
Yes drivers for w3.1 can not be inf files refering to kernel drivers,
but sure they were made on a MS development system for that.
G
Gripper
Barry Watzman said:The exact text of the message .... which appears on virtually every single
product if you try to download Windows 9x drivers .... is:
*****beginning of exact quote
"As of July 2007, HP will no longer be able to offer software driver
downloads or replacement CD ordering for Windows 98, 98 Second Edition
(SE), or Windows Millennium (Me) for your HP printer, all-in-one, camera,
or scanner. Microsoft has stopped providing and supporting certain files
related specifically to Windows 98 SE, and this change affects all
technology companies. HP, along with other technology companies, is no
longer able to use selected components in support of Windows 98SE, which
has an impact on our software strategy for Windows 98, Windows 98 SE, and
Windows Me.
*****end of quote
Just out of curiosity, I went to the Epson printer driver download site- no
trouble getting Win 98 drivers there.....
hmmm...........
<me thanks the god of printers that my last HP printer died some time ago>
A
Arthur Entlich
It may just be a matter of time, or that they didn't incorporate the MS
owned parts into their drivers. It's a good question.
Art
owned parts into their drivers. It's a good question.
Art
J
Jean
Barry Watzman a écrit dans le message
I think that your basic assumption is correct however it appears to me
that the printer manufactors try to force their customers to buy new
printers and new ink systems by upping the price of their cartridges. When
I acquired my Epson printer the combined price of the four cartridges needed
was near 19 Euros. The last time I checked the black cartridge along was
45 euros and the color ones were not in the stores.
I bought a device to reset the chip and a refill kit.
Now (until the cartidges wear out) I can refill all for about 4.50 Euros.
JL
SNIPRe: "it's in there best interest to have folks continue to BUY their
printers. After that, they don't give a squat ..."
Not true.
With printers (unlike, say, scanners) there is ongoing revenue from ink
cartridges. In fact, the printers themselves are reportedly often sold
at a loss, and the older cartridges have a higher profit margin than the
newer ones (because they are less stocked, less promoted and less
discounted all with less competition).
I think that your basic assumption is correct however it appears to me
that the printer manufactors try to force their customers to buy new
printers and new ink systems by upping the price of their cartridges. When
I acquired my Epson printer the combined price of the four cartridges needed
was near 19 Euros. The last time I checked the black cartridge along was
45 euros and the color ones were not in the stores.
I bought a device to reset the chip and a refill kit.
Now (until the cartidges wear out) I can refill all for about 4.50 Euros.
JL
D
dkelvey
---snip---Is it legal for another website to hold and distribute these drivers?
(I imagine, strictly speaking, that it would violate several copyrights).
Hi Art
Although, I'm sure a lawyer could argue different but I see this
as a clear case of "fair use". The person that has the printer
has a right to the driver. It is part of the product. The driver has
no other conflicting use with some other companies product
( or at least shouldn't ) so it is only useful for the original
application.
If it was distributed at no cost, there should be no copyright issue.
Just my non-legal opinion.
Dwight
B
Barry Watzman
I really believe that this is solely an HP action and that they are
trying to use MS as a scapegoat when in fact it's pure HP.
But either way, I'm surprised that more of a fuss isn't being made about
this in the general PC community. It's a fairly big deal.
trying to use MS as a scapegoat when in fact it's pure HP.
But either way, I'm surprised that more of a fuss isn't being made about
this in the general PC community. It's a fairly big deal.
B
Barry Watzman
Your non-legal opinion is legally wrong.
The buyer of a printer does have a right to continue to use the drivers,
and copy them for his own use.
But that's far, far different from posting them on the Internet where
anyone can download them (even if they didn't buy and don't own a printer).
Strictly speaking, it's not legal, but a common practice is to go ahead
and post them anyway until and unless a complaint is received from
someone claiming to have a copyright to the posted software.
The buyer of a printer does have a right to continue to use the drivers,
and copy them for his own use.
But that's far, far different from posting them on the Internet where
anyone can download them (even if they didn't buy and don't own a printer).
Strictly speaking, it's not legal, but a common practice is to go ahead
and post them anyway until and unless a complaint is received from
someone claiming to have a copyright to the posted software.
M
measekite
Barry said:Your non-legal opinion is legally wrong.
The buyer of a printer does have a right to continue to use the
drivers, and copy them for his own use.
But that's far, far different from posting them on the Internet where
anyone can download them (even if they didn't buy and don't own a
printer).
Duh, Y wood some one need a driver if they do not have the printer.
K
kony
Duh, Y wood some one need a driver if they do not have the printer.
Unfortunately, not all laws have anything to do with common
sense, they're generalizations left to the discretion of
others to wield like swords.
B
Barry Watzman
How about a competitor of HP getting a copy of the driver to reverse
engineer it? Or a maker of non-HP consumables getting a copy of it to
defeat some mechanisms that are used to prevent refilling or non-HP inks
and toners. Or an attorney wanting an analysis of the code for use in a
legal case (possibly against HP).
There are LOTS of reasons why people might want the driver other than to
use it with a printer.
But that's not the point. The owner of a piece of code has an absolute
right to control how it is distributed and to whom. The are allowed to
exercise that control illogically and without good reason if they so
choose. It's their software, period.
engineer it? Or a maker of non-HP consumables getting a copy of it to
defeat some mechanisms that are used to prevent refilling or non-HP inks
and toners. Or an attorney wanting an analysis of the code for use in a
legal case (possibly against HP).
There are LOTS of reasons why people might want the driver other than to
use it with a printer.
But that's not the point. The owner of a piece of code has an absolute
right to control how it is distributed and to whom. The are allowed to
exercise that control illogically and without good reason if they so
choose. It's their software, period.
B
Bob Headrick
Barry Watzman said:I really believe that this is solely an HP action and that they are trying
to use MS as a scapegoat when in fact it's pure HP.
Well, at least two people in this group that have more knowledge about the
details have already disagreed with you. HP really has no reason to want to
do this on thier own, it is in thier best interests to have folks continue
to use thier printers. They they still provide Win 3.1 and Win 95 drivers
for many printers. There are issues here that you do not understand and
they appear to be beyond HP's direct control.
But either way, I'm surprised that more of a fuss isn't being made about
this in the general PC community. It's a fairly big deal.
Well, maybe it is not that big a deal after all? I asked for examples from
folks who needed a driver and have not had any responses. I suppose that
most folks installing a printer in Win 98 have probably done it years ago,
or perhaps they are just using the built in drivers.
I do wish the drivers were still available somewhere as I keep a Windows 98
virtual machine around to load drivers to test for folks with issues. I
would suspect they will turn up somewhere if there is demand. On the other
hand, Win 98 has a declining installed base....
Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
N
Noozer
Well, at least two people in this group that have more knowledge about the
Actually, it's in ther best interest to have folks continue to BUY their
printers. After that, they don't give a squat about what the user does with
them (at least once their out of warranty).
details have already disagreed with you. HP really has no reason to want
to do this on thier own, it is in thier best interests to have folks
continue to use thier printers.
Actually, it's in ther best interest to have folks continue to BUY their
printers. After that, they don't give a squat about what the user does with
them (at least once their out of warranty).
A
Arthur Entlich
It would be nice to know the full legal ramifications. I do see a lot
of "driver" websites, some require registration, some are free and some
try to charge fees. Same with user manuals and service manuals. I
haven't yet seen any attempt to shut down these websites, but that may
be more about small change than about legalities and rights.
Art
of "driver" websites, some require registration, some are free and some
try to charge fees. Same with user manuals and service manuals. I
haven't yet seen any attempt to shut down these websites, but that may
be more about small change than about legalities and rights.
Art
A
Arthur Entlich
I'm still doing some digging and research to see if this situation can
be reversed. It will probably take a few weeks before I get some
definitive answers. As of right now, from the feedback I have received,
there is good reason to believe HP was between a rock and a hard place.
I'm not trying to be coy, but I want to be more clear of who is holding
the stings on this, and what exactly the agreements state before
clarifying publicly what the mechanics are.
Art
be reversed. It will probably take a few weeks before I get some
definitive answers. As of right now, from the feedback I have received,
there is good reason to believe HP was between a rock and a hard place.
I'm not trying to be coy, but I want to be more clear of who is holding
the stings on this, and what exactly the agreements state before
clarifying publicly what the mechanics are.
Art
N
Noozer
Is it legal for another website to hold and distribute these drivers?
Definately illegal without some concrete form of permission given first.
Just because something is free doesn't mean that anyone can distribute it.
What if the developer used the number of downloads to judge the acceptance
of a product.
Then there is the liability factor. If you download a driver from a third
party and it damages your system the developer is not liable for the
damages, since the software was obtained elsewhere. The developer never had
the opportunity to make you aware of any issues with the driver, etc.
Finally, what if the developer discovers that their driver DOES do damage.
They correct the software and put the update on their site. How do they get
the rest of the world to stop distributing it?
Definately illegal without some concrete form of permission given first.
Just because something is free doesn't mean that anyone can distribute it.
What if the developer used the number of downloads to judge the acceptance
of a product.
Then there is the liability factor. If you download a driver from a third
party and it damages your system the developer is not liable for the
damages, since the software was obtained elsewhere. The developer never had
the opportunity to make you aware of any issues with the driver, etc.
Finally, what if the developer discovers that their driver DOES do damage.
They correct the software and put the update on their site. How do they get
the rest of the world to stop distributing it?
A
Arthur Entlich
Well, that's not totally true. Remember the business model printers are
sold under. There isn't a lot of profit in the printer hardware sales,
money is made from the cartridge/ink sales. Therefore, the best
scenario would be for everyone to buy one printer and be "forced" to buy
refill cartridges or ink from the OEM, with the printer lasting as long
as possible as current.
The only reasons printer companies introduce newer printers is to avoid
losing the client to the other brand (of inks) by keeping their product
fresh, new and innovative, and to upgrade "ink security" hardware, to
make it as hard as possible for earlier owners to refill or find
alternative consumables.
Art
sold under. There isn't a lot of profit in the printer hardware sales,
money is made from the cartridge/ink sales. Therefore, the best
scenario would be for everyone to buy one printer and be "forced" to buy
refill cartridges or ink from the OEM, with the printer lasting as long
as possible as current.
The only reasons printer companies introduce newer printers is to avoid
losing the client to the other brand (of inks) by keeping their product
fresh, new and innovative, and to upgrade "ink security" hardware, to
make it as hard as possible for earlier owners to refill or find
alternative consumables.
Art
B
Barry Watzman
Re: "it's in there best interest to have folks continue to BUY their
printers. After that, they don't give a squat ..."
Not true.
With printers (unlike, say, scanners) there is ongoing revenue from ink
cartridges. In fact, the printers themselves are reportedly often sold
at a loss, and the older cartridges have a higher profit margin than the
newer ones (because they are less stocked, less promoted and less
discounted all with less competition).
printers. After that, they don't give a squat ..."
Not true.
With printers (unlike, say, scanners) there is ongoing revenue from ink
cartridges. In fact, the printers themselves are reportedly often sold
at a loss, and the older cartridges have a higher profit margin than the
newer ones (because they are less stocked, less promoted and less
discounted all with less competition).
M
measekite
Barry said:How about a competitor of HP getting a copy of the driver to reverse
engineer it? Or a maker of non-HP consumables getting a copy of it to
defeat some mechanisms that are used to prevent refilling or non-HP
inks and toners. Or an attorney wanting an analysis of the code for
use in a legal case (possibly against HP).
That is so stupid, beyond stupidity. If they really need a driver to
perform any of those things (itis probably in the firmware and not the
driver) they can spend a small amount and buy a printer (or the driver
is included in Windows) and have it. Gollie
M
measekite
Jean wrote:
Barry Watzman a écrit dans le message <[email protected]>...
Re: "it's in there best interest to have folks continue to BUY their printers. After that, they don't give a squat ..." Not true. With printers (unlike, say, scanners) there is ongoing revenue from ink cartridges. In fact, the printers themselves are reportedly often sold at a loss, and the older cartridges have a higher profit margin than the newer ones (because they are less stocked, less promoted and less discounted all with less competition). Noozer wrote:
Well, at least two people in this group that have more knowledge about
the
details have already disagreed with you. HP really has no reason to
want
to do this on thier own, it is in thier best interests to have folks continue to use thier printers.
SNIP I think that your basic assumption is correct however it appears to me that the printer manufactors try to force their customers to buy new printers and new ink systems by upping the price of their cartridges. When I acquired my Epson printer the combined price of the four cartridges needed was near 19 Euros. The last time I checked the black cartridge along was 45 euros and the color ones were not in the stores. I bought a device to reset the chip and a refill kit. Now (until the cartidges wear out) I can refill all for about 4.50 Euros. JL
It is a shame that the high OEM prices force usrers to endure a refilling mess, lower quality, faster fading and the potential for a ruined printer.
Barry Watzman a écrit dans le message <[email protected]>...
Re: "it's in there best interest to have folks continue to BUY their printers. After that, they don't give a squat ..." Not true. With printers (unlike, say, scanners) there is ongoing revenue from ink cartridges. In fact, the printers themselves are reportedly often sold at a loss, and the older cartridges have a higher profit margin than the newer ones (because they are less stocked, less promoted and less discounted all with less competition). Noozer wrote:
Well, at least two people in this group that have more knowledge about
the
details have already disagreed with you. HP really has no reason to
want
to do this on thier own, it is in thier best interests to have folks continue to use thier printers.
SNIP I think that your basic assumption is correct however it appears to me that the printer manufactors try to force their customers to buy new printers and new ink systems by upping the price of their cartridges. When I acquired my Epson printer the combined price of the four cartridges needed was near 19 Euros. The last time I checked the black cartridge along was 45 euros and the color ones were not in the stores. I bought a device to reset the chip and a refill kit. Now (until the cartidges wear out) I can refill all for about 4.50 Euros. JL
It is a shame that the high OEM prices force usrers to endure a refilling mess, lower quality, faster fading and the potential for a ruined printer.