C
Cor
Clay or grass?
LOL
LOL
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Microsoft! whether we can upload the projects (in .zip file) ?
F
Fergus Cooney
Hi Steve,
|| i do think herfried has a valid point about wormed attachments
He does. Worms are bad business.
|| i do think herfried has a valid point about wormed attachments
In this context, however, Herfried's point is logically invalid.
There are a couple of reasons that I can see:
1) It isn't analogous to this situation. Worm postings are an attack
and a major one. Posting attachments in order to get a problem solved is far
from an attack. The closest you could say on that front is that posting a huge
zip when a smaller one would suffice is an attack of thoughtlessness.
2) It isn't in a reasonable position on the scale:- No-one posting
attachments. One person posting an occasional zip - ok..Several people posting
a zip - Hmm, do we need that?; Many people - Please, it's not necessary;
Everyone - Now just stop right there!!
We are talking about the lowest region on that scale. It wouldn't happen
that we'd reach the higher levels. There simply isn't the need. The vast
majority post a simple query. Sometimes snippets and sometimes long snippets.
Occasionally it's useful to have these longer snippets packaged in a zip. We
will never get to the stage of everyone posting a zip of their project as a
matter of course.
Worm attack postings are at the top end of that scale in terms of
frequency, but they are in a region that will not be visited naturally. So
Herfried's point is 'out-of-bounds' for this discussion but, of course, valid
in its own right.
|| and don't see it as "fuzzy" logic
I use the word 'fuzzy' not in the 'fuzzy logic' sense but in the sense
that someone who uses extreme points such as that is often speaking from an
emotional place rather than a logical one. This may not be the case here, of
course, it is only a perception. But it is one that Cor and I both saw
independantly. And it's consistent with how Herfried's argumentative style has
developed over the last few days. He is, like the rest of us in this brawl,
very tired, and this adds its own fuzziness.
|| i guess perspectives are environmentally differing depending
|| on whether one has had ones' own "polluted" before. ;^)
I wish I understood this...
|| given that, i think you've clinically described a common social
|| dynamic...i make that observation completely devoid of emotion
|| mind you. ;^)
because it makes me uncertain of this.
But with two ;^)s, I think it's an atute observation, a compliment .. and
an irony. ;-)
Cheers,
Fergus
|| i do think herfried has a valid point about wormed attachments
He does. Worms are bad business.
|| i do think herfried has a valid point about wormed attachments
In this context, however, Herfried's point is logically invalid.
There are a couple of reasons that I can see:
1) It isn't analogous to this situation. Worm postings are an attack
and a major one. Posting attachments in order to get a problem solved is far
from an attack. The closest you could say on that front is that posting a huge
zip when a smaller one would suffice is an attack of thoughtlessness.
2) It isn't in a reasonable position on the scale:- No-one posting
attachments. One person posting an occasional zip - ok..Several people posting
a zip - Hmm, do we need that?; Many people - Please, it's not necessary;
Everyone - Now just stop right there!!
We are talking about the lowest region on that scale. It wouldn't happen
that we'd reach the higher levels. There simply isn't the need. The vast
majority post a simple query. Sometimes snippets and sometimes long snippets.
Occasionally it's useful to have these longer snippets packaged in a zip. We
will never get to the stage of everyone posting a zip of their project as a
matter of course.
Worm attack postings are at the top end of that scale in terms of
frequency, but they are in a region that will not be visited naturally. So
Herfried's point is 'out-of-bounds' for this discussion but, of course, valid
in its own right.
|| and don't see it as "fuzzy" logic
I use the word 'fuzzy' not in the 'fuzzy logic' sense but in the sense
that someone who uses extreme points such as that is often speaking from an
emotional place rather than a logical one. This may not be the case here, of
course, it is only a perception. But it is one that Cor and I both saw
independantly. And it's consistent with how Herfried's argumentative style has
developed over the last few days. He is, like the rest of us in this brawl,
very tired, and this adds its own fuzziness.
|| i guess perspectives are environmentally differing depending
|| on whether one has had ones' own "polluted" before. ;^)
I wish I understood this...
|| given that, i think you've clinically described a common social
|| dynamic...i make that observation completely devoid of emotion
|| mind you. ;^)
because it makes me uncertain of this.
But with two ;^)s, I think it's an atute observation, a compliment .. and
an irony. ;-)
Cheers,
Fergus
F
Fergus Cooney
Hi Steve,
|| but again, posting attached projects for help in a ng. is ...
|| self-defeating,
I've taken several zipped projects, worked on them and confirmed a bug or
found a solution. This certainly didn't defeat the purposes of the guy with
the problem!! ;-)
|| un-productive,
It produced a conclusion or resolution almost every time.
|| and wastes resources.
It didn't waste <my time>. As the person actually doing the helping in the
thread where this arises, I feel a small justification in claiming the right
to save some time. ;-)
One possibility is that the code is posted in-line. Then it comes complete
with word-wrapped comments and code, loss of indentation, the addition of
double spacing. And this is a major hassle for me trying to reproduce a
project. A couple of projects have involved graphics. What choice there -
base64?- it's longer than the binary!
Another pair of possibilities is ftp and www. This has been discussed
elsewhere as being impractical for a number of reasons.
Email is a possibility. As discussed with Armin - I have asked every time
that the poster consider emailing. Every time they have posted to the group.
This is human nature - try and change it!
|| it's just not helpful to anyone.
It helps me to help the person with the query. He and me are the two most
important people in that thread.
As I've said before, and as Armin and Herfried have both confirmed, (at
least in their own situations), there is no obligation to download an
attachment
Regards,
Fergus
[Anyone doesn't like references to 'he' and not she? - no 'she's so far.]
|| but again, posting attached projects for help in a ng. is ...
|| self-defeating,
I've taken several zipped projects, worked on them and confirmed a bug or
found a solution. This certainly didn't defeat the purposes of the guy with
the problem!! ;-)
|| un-productive,
It produced a conclusion or resolution almost every time.
|| and wastes resources.
It didn't waste <my time>. As the person actually doing the helping in the
thread where this arises, I feel a small justification in claiming the right
to save some time. ;-)
One possibility is that the code is posted in-line. Then it comes complete
with word-wrapped comments and code, loss of indentation, the addition of
double spacing. And this is a major hassle for me trying to reproduce a
project. A couple of projects have involved graphics. What choice there -
base64?- it's longer than the binary!
Another pair of possibilities is ftp and www. This has been discussed
elsewhere as being impractical for a number of reasons.
Email is a possibility. As discussed with Armin - I have asked every time
that the poster consider emailing. Every time they have posted to the group.
This is human nature - try and change it!
|| it's just not helpful to anyone.
It helps me to help the person with the query. He and me are the two most
important people in that thread.
As I've said before, and as Armin and Herfried have both confirmed, (at
least in their own situations), there is no obligation to download an
attachment
Regards,
Fergus
[Anyone doesn't like references to 'he' and not she? - no 'she's so far.]
F
Fergus Cooney
ROFL
F
Fergus Cooney
Hey Road Kill,
How come you block your vision when you pick your nose? Sounds wierd to
me. is your face upside down??
It's no good feeding the birds by scattering seed in a sand pit. - it's
better to put it where the birds can see it.
[And other phrases filled with indignation...] ;-)
Hhrmmph,
Fergus
How come you block your vision when you pick your nose? Sounds wierd to
me. is your face upside down??
It's no good feeding the birds by scattering seed in a sand pit. - it's
better to put it where the birds can see it.
[And other phrases filled with indignation...] ;-)
Hhrmmph,
Fergus
S
steve
1) It isn't analogous to this situation. Worm postings are an
attack
keep in mind, i define scale here as it relates to impact and frequency as
the number of given occurances in a specific time-frame...
it is in-line w/ the situation...beit on the extreme side at first
glance...but none the less, if posting is not allowed then it no longer is a
concern. i say that, only to bring it back "in-the-ballpark". i think you
are wholly correct if all you consider is frequency b/c, if you look at the
number of posts w/ attachments over the past month (excluding the jibe ones
in this thread), you just don't see any. as far as scale goes...a 1mb zip is
nothing to most of us here. it's impact on use is really minimal. however, a
worm may be encountered just once and have huge ramifications for all. bear
w/ me, i'm bringing it home. since the "ok" attachments occur w/ rarity, is
there a need to allow them at all as long as other means of passing files
between ng member exists (i.e. std. email) and given that the effects of one
attachment worm can be substancial. it seems we aren't taking advantage of
the ability to post attachments...but someone is...and w/ malicious intent.
i think herf. may have just weighed frequency, scale, and side-effects and
suggested a plausible solution. personally, i don't care either way...i
don't post them and i automatically neglect reading any w/ them. so what
does it matter to me.
this is very true...but doesn't take into account low frequency-low impact :
low frequency-high impact. low frequency just means hardly anyone posts
attachments. that means the odds are greater in favor of one being
malicious. and the impact of encountering a corruptive attachment is high.
did i bring it any closer to the playing field?
i mean that anyone stung by a worm/virus may be less reticent about
considering allowing attachments than someone who hasn't been zapped before.
it changes your outlook on acceptible risks and alternative activities.
yeah, i had to put two there. i have a bad/dry sense of humor and wanted to
make sure you caught it. i agreed w/ you so much that i'm trying to actually
implement your words by seeing a different interpretation from someone who
doesn't have a familiarity w/ herf. to be able to tell when he's just moody
or serious. it s/b a compliment to you and a funny irony.
if we still disagree at this point, i'm fine w/ that. i really see both
sides and wanted to bring out the "off-the-wall" one. at face value, it
is...a little deeper and it's not so insane.
cheers,
steve
and another ;^) to ya.
lol.
attack
and a major one. Posting attachments in order to get a problem solved is far
from an attack. The closest you could say on that front is that posting a huge
zip when a smaller one would suffice is an attack of thoughtlessness.
2) It isn't in a reasonable position on the scale:- No-one posting
attachments. One person posting an occasional zip - ok..Several people posting
a zip - Hmm, do we need that?; Many people - Please, it's not necessary;
Everyone - Now just stop right there!!
keep in mind, i define scale here as it relates to impact and frequency as
the number of given occurances in a specific time-frame...
it is in-line w/ the situation...beit on the extreme side at first
glance...but none the less, if posting is not allowed then it no longer is a
concern. i say that, only to bring it back "in-the-ballpark". i think you
are wholly correct if all you consider is frequency b/c, if you look at the
number of posts w/ attachments over the past month (excluding the jibe ones
in this thread), you just don't see any. as far as scale goes...a 1mb zip is
nothing to most of us here. it's impact on use is really minimal. however, a
worm may be encountered just once and have huge ramifications for all. bear
w/ me, i'm bringing it home. since the "ok" attachments occur w/ rarity, is
there a need to allow them at all as long as other means of passing files
between ng member exists (i.e. std. email) and given that the effects of one
attachment worm can be substancial. it seems we aren't taking advantage of
the ability to post attachments...but someone is...and w/ malicious intent.
i think herf. may have just weighed frequency, scale, and side-effects and
suggested a plausible solution. personally, i don't care either way...i
don't post them and i automatically neglect reading any w/ them. so what
does it matter to me.
We are talking about the lowest region on that scale. It wouldn't happen
that we'd reach the higher levels. There simply isn't the need. The vast
majority post a simple query. Sometimes snippets and sometimes long snippets.
Occasionally it's useful to have these longer snippets packaged in a zip. We
will never get to the stage of everyone posting a zip of their project as a
matter of course.
this is very true...but doesn't take into account low frequency-low impact :
low frequency-high impact. low frequency just means hardly anyone posts
attachments. that means the odds are greater in favor of one being
malicious. and the impact of encountering a corruptive attachment is high.
Worm attack postings are at the top end of that scale in terms of
frequency, but they are in a region that will not be visited naturally. So
Herfried's point is 'out-of-bounds' for this discussion but, of course, valid
in its own right.
did i bring it any closer to the playing field?
I use the word 'fuzzy' not in the 'fuzzy logic' sense but in the sense
that someone who uses extreme points such as that is often speaking from an
emotional place rather than a logical one. This may not be the case here, of
course, it is only a perception. But it is one that Cor and I both saw
independantly. And it's consistent with how Herfried's argumentative style has
developed over the last few days. He is, like the rest of us in this brawl,
very tired, and this adds its own fuzziness.
understood.
|| i guess perspectives are environmentally differing depending
|| on whether one has had ones' own "polluted" before. ;^)
I wish I understood this...
i mean that anyone stung by a worm/virus may be less reticent about
considering allowing attachments than someone who hasn't been zapped before.
it changes your outlook on acceptible risks and alternative activities.
|| given that, i think you've clinically described a common social
|| dynamic...i make that observation completely devoid of emotion
|| mind you. ;^)
because it makes me uncertain of this.
But with two ;^)s, I think it's an atute observation, a compliment .. and
an irony. ;-)
yeah, i had to put two there. i have a bad/dry sense of humor and wanted to
make sure you caught it. i agreed w/ you so much that i'm trying to actually
implement your words by seeing a different interpretation from someone who
doesn't have a familiarity w/ herf. to be able to tell when he's just moody
or serious. it s/b a compliment to you and a funny irony.
if we still disagree at this point, i'm fine w/ that. i really see both
sides and wanted to bring out the "off-the-wall" one. at face value, it
is...a little deeper and it's not so insane.
cheers,
steve
and another ;^) to ya.
lol.
F
Fergus Cooney
So what's the bit about the finger and nose then??
F
Fergus Cooney
ROFL
Strange. I looked at that word several times and always saw the 's'.
Must have been picking my nose or something.
Strange. I looked at that word several times and always saw the 's'.
Must have been picking my nose or something.
S
steve
well the road kill is b/c i mixed up responses to the wrong thread-post...so
many of them in this darn mess!
apply the following:
and you get:
vioala! road kill when read in the wrong spot...implying i don't understand
what i just wrote.
;^)
many of them in this darn mess!
apply the following:
Did you say something there? I couldn't work it out.
Regards,
Fergus
to:
Will you repeat that for court?
Cor
and you get:
ditto...lol.
vioala! road kill when read in the wrong spot...implying i don't understand
what i just wrote.
;^)
Fergus Cooney said:Hey Road Kill,
How come you block your vision when you pick your nose? Sounds wierd to
me. is your face upside down??
It's no good feeding the birds by scattering seed in a sand pit. - it's
better to put it where the birds can see it.
[And other phrases filled with indignation...] ;-)
Hhrmmph,
Fergus
S
steve
no, no, no! you forget, oh iron guru...nose-picking is my specialty...hence
the love of my new nickname "road kill" ;^)
anyway, to what word doth thouest ponder in consideration of the letter
's'...pray tell?
steve
the love of my new nickname "road kill" ;^)
anyway, to what word doth thouest ponder in consideration of the letter
's'...pray tell?
steve
C
Cor
Steve,
This brings it totaly of case. The virusses from the microsoft newsgroups
where as far as I know not spreaded by the attachment but by using the email
adresses that were used in this newsgroup. (There are not so much fools in
this newsgroup who do open every attachment that they see thinking it is the
jackpot).
Cor
This brings it totaly of case. The virusses from the microsoft newsgroups
where as far as I know not spreaded by the attachment but by using the email
adresses that were used in this newsgroup. (There are not so much fools in
this newsgroup who do open every attachment that they see thinking it is the
jackpot).
Cor
S
steve
i know cor, and believe you are correct in both cases. however, the
possibility of exploiting communicable "diseases" through the manner that
herf. implies is still very possible. for all the lengthy replies i've
given, i think i can finally sum it up in fewer words. if the consumption
rate of a service in minimal, and the potential for exploit high with high
risk consequences, it then makes the elimination of that service a very
viable option. hardly anyone posts attachments...and if a code snippet
doesn't do it for us, then we can have them email the source.
steve
possibility of exploiting communicable "diseases" through the manner that
herf. implies is still very possible. for all the lengthy replies i've
given, i think i can finally sum it up in fewer words. if the consumption
rate of a service in minimal, and the potential for exploit high with high
risk consequences, it then makes the elimination of that service a very
viable option. hardly anyone posts attachments...and if a code snippet
doesn't do it for us, then we can have them email the source.
steve
S
steve
btw...where is herf. now, anyway...he's a big boy. i'll let him state his
case...my fingers are sore from typing. ;^)
case...my fingers are sore from typing. ;^)
F
Fergus Cooney
Hi Steve,
I don't know if you've been following the battle bwteen Herfried and
myself over quoting styles.
I've got to say your post was just sooo difficult to read. - Word-wrapped
quoted lines such that some have > and some don't. No indentation to aid
separation of quoted and unquoted. Monolithic paragraphs with no capitals.
Unfamiliar (to me) words like w/, b/c which save you typing three or four
letters but mean that I need to reread the sentence until I've worked it out!
Right. Moan over. Hot air to be dismissed - I'm not starting this one up
again, I just needed to say it. ;-)
[But I reserve the right to use this as an example at some unspecified point
in the future, lol].
|| a 1mb zip is nothing to most of us here
It's a disaster to me! I've got tiny badwidth much of the time.
|| a worm may be encountered just once and have huge ramifications
|| for all. bear w/ me, i'm bringing it home. since the "ok" attachments
|| occur w/ rarity, is there a need to allow them at all as long as other
|| means of passing files between ng member exists (i.e. std. email)
|| and given that the effects of one attachment worm can be substancial.
|| it seems we aren't taking advantage of the ability to post
attachments...
|| but someone is...and w/ malicious intent
I'll answer in a similar style ;-)
true. don't need to bear - you're making sense. they do. good question, so
long as - yes and there is, it can, we are but minimally, they certainly are
...very.
That's a good point. I'd hate to have a long and serious argument with
you - I'd be working very hard to understand you and finding myself agreeing a
lot. ;-) [But then, our disputes would not tend to be long drawn out affairs,
methinks]
Yes, if there was no attachment facility then posters would have to make
of the email address that I always offer. No choice - no dispute. There would
then be no ptential for virus/worm attacks.
However, I'd like to see a Microsoft et. al. solution to these attacks. I
found it surprising, disappointing and still inexplicable <why> these things
had the impact that they did. I don't understand what difficulty there was in
preventing these 156Kers from appearing in the newsgroups. But never mind.
As a helper I'd like the attack issue solved without a blanket ban, and
the ability to grab a zip from the message that I'm actually reading rather
than playing the Mailbox Shuffle. I'd like it even better, lol, if I could
click an attachment and have it unzip into \Tmp and open up VS for me, but I
musn't be greedy. [Hmm, perhaps a web site for uploading to, which creates a
page with a link utilising a special Url Protocol to do all that I want...]
Got to go. I agree - yet I want more.;-))
Regards,
Fergus
I don't know if you've been following the battle bwteen Herfried and
myself over quoting styles.
I've got to say your post was just sooo difficult to read. - Word-wrapped
quoted lines such that some have > and some don't. No indentation to aid
separation of quoted and unquoted. Monolithic paragraphs with no capitals.
Unfamiliar (to me) words like w/, b/c which save you typing three or four
letters but mean that I need to reread the sentence until I've worked it out!
Right. Moan over. Hot air to be dismissed - I'm not starting this one up
again, I just needed to say it. ;-)
[But I reserve the right to use this as an example at some unspecified point
in the future, lol].
|| a 1mb zip is nothing to most of us here
It's a disaster to me! I've got tiny badwidth much of the time.
|| a worm may be encountered just once and have huge ramifications
|| for all. bear w/ me, i'm bringing it home. since the "ok" attachments
|| occur w/ rarity, is there a need to allow them at all as long as other
|| means of passing files between ng member exists (i.e. std. email)
|| and given that the effects of one attachment worm can be substancial.
|| it seems we aren't taking advantage of the ability to post
attachments...
|| but someone is...and w/ malicious intent
I'll answer in a similar style ;-)
true. don't need to bear - you're making sense. they do. good question, so
long as - yes and there is, it can, we are but minimally, they certainly are
...very.
That's a good point. I'd hate to have a long and serious argument with
you - I'd be working very hard to understand you and finding myself agreeing a
lot. ;-) [But then, our disputes would not tend to be long drawn out affairs,
methinks]
Yes, if there was no attachment facility then posters would have to make
of the email address that I always offer. No choice - no dispute. There would
then be no ptential for virus/worm attacks.
However, I'd like to see a Microsoft et. al. solution to these attacks. I
found it surprising, disappointing and still inexplicable <why> these things
had the impact that they did. I don't understand what difficulty there was in
preventing these 156Kers from appearing in the newsgroups. But never mind.
As a helper I'd like the attack issue solved without a blanket ban, and
the ability to grab a zip from the message that I'm actually reading rather
than playing the Mailbox Shuffle. I'd like it even better, lol, if I could
click an attachment and have it unzip into \Tmp and open up VS for me, but I
musn't be greedy. [Hmm, perhaps a web site for uploading to, which creates a
page with a link utilising a special Url Protocol to do all that I want...]
Got to go. I agree - yet I want more.;-))
Regards,
Fergus
F
Fergus Cooney
Hi Jesse,
I note that you have now contributed several posts of your own to this
WASTED THREAD.
I have wasted my time finding your jokes funny and having a laugh.
You have wasted your time knowing that your jokes were appreciated.
What a waste!!! ;-))
Regards,
Fergus
I note that you have now contributed several posts of your own to this
WASTED THREAD.
I have wasted my time finding your jokes funny and having a laugh.
You have wasted your time knowing that your jokes were appreciated.
What a waste!!! ;-))
Regards,
Fergus
F
Fergus Cooney
Hi Road Warrior,
This cat's got curiosity.
Is it anything to do with Steve's big hooter ;^) ?
Regards,
Fergus
This cat's got curiosity.
Is it anything to do with Steve's big hooter ;^) ?
Regards,
Fergus
F
Fergus Cooney
Hi Steve,
I made mention of your 'atute' observation and Road Warrior spotted the
absense of the 's' where I have hallucinated it. Comes of keeping the fingers
out and putting the wrong stuff up there, perhaps.
How come you're claiming the Road Kill nickname? I was applying it in
momentary derision to Road Warrior (who, according to his self reference 'you
will be able to see what i said' is also Jesse). Or are you all of them??
Aaagghhh I'm all confused. Maybe I'm not even reading real posts anymore
and just typing away to myself! This last couple of days....
Regards,
Fergus
I made mention of your 'atute' observation and Road Warrior spotted the
absense of the 's' where I have hallucinated it. Comes of keeping the fingers
out and putting the wrong stuff up there, perhaps.
How come you're claiming the Road Kill nickname? I was applying it in
momentary derision to Road Warrior (who, according to his self reference 'you
will be able to see what i said' is also Jesse). Or are you all of them??
Aaagghhh I'm all confused. Maybe I'm not even reading real posts anymore
and just typing away to myself! This last couple of days....
Regards,
Fergus
H
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
* "Fergus Cooney said:You can post as many 1MB attachments as you like. That would be fine. I
would exercise my option not to download them. You might make some other
people upset, though.
Just don't do 1MB of in-line text. That would piss a million people off!
In news posts attachments are saved inside the post.
H
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
* "Fergus Cooney said:Having read the German netiquette, I must ask you to reconsider sending
1MB attachments.
The German rules clearly state
Do not hang plants from your postings.
Did you even read _why_ this netikette exists (first paragraph)? Is
"Attachment" or "Anhang" really translated to "plant"?
However, if you would like to have InterFlora deliver them to my door,
that would be great! Some Tulips would be cheerful, but that's more Cor's
line - you can send me some Edelweiss ;-)
;-)
H
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
* "Fergus Cooney said:line - you can send me some Edelweiss ;-)
I forgot to ask if I should send you the "Edelweiss" flower or the beer...