Microsoft Security Bulletin MS03-040 - 828750

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jerry Bryant [MSFT]
  • Start date Start date
Me2 said:
So when MS03-040 is released - does M$
tell us that it fixed the hole that Trojan.Qhosts used? NO, I need
to find out on a new group or in the media.

Nonetheless, if you had simply followed normal protocol of installing ALL
critical updates upon release, you would have been protected -- whether you
knew it or not!

--
Jim Eshelman, MS-MVP Windows
http://aumha.org/
http://WinSupportCenter.com/


Did you find this newsgroup on the web? A newsreader like Outlook Express
will make your online life a lot easier. Get better help! See:
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http://support.microsoft.com/support/news/howto/default.asp
 
Me2 said:
All the things you say are good. But I still would like Microsoft to
provide a little more current information about potential security
risks (not the technical details) of using Microsoft product XYZ.

Personally, I don't want them announcing any vulnerability for which they
don't yet have a fix. Malware writers are quick enough to jump on
vulnerabilities for which there *are* known fixes, taking advantage of
people who don't make installing a new critical update their most immediate
priority. To announce vulnerabilities for which there isn't a repair on
hand -- that would be downright irresponsible!

--
Jim Eshelman, MS-MVP Windows
http://aumha.org/
http://WinSupportCenter.com/


Did you find this newsgroup on the web? A newsreader like Outlook Express
will make your online life a lot easier. Get better help! See:
http://aumha.org/win4/supp1b.htm and
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That may be true. But, now, I don't know how many "a"'s to put in it,
either! Haardmeier, I suppose.

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
should things get worse after this,
PCR
(e-mail address removed)
| PCR wrote:
| > It's tough to know who is who, what is what, or how many "e"'s are
in
| > Hardmeier.
|
| Maybe this will help: Her name is an anagram for "Hinder IE Drama."
<g>
|
| --
| Jim Eshelman, MS-MVP Windows
| http://aumha.org/
| http://WinSupportCenter.com/
|
|
| Did you find this newsgroup on the web? A newsreader like Outlook
Express
| will make your online life a lot easier. Get better help! See:
| http://aumha.org/win4/supp1b.htm and
| http://support.microsoft.com/support/news/howto/default.asp
|
|
 
Jim,

You are not reading. A machine at my organization was infected with
Trojan.Qhosts BEFORE ms03=040 was released !!! The machine was behind a
firewall, using a proxy, full up-todate patches, latest antirus. Why do you
think M$ rushed this patch on Firday night? Have you even read the Qhosts
news articles?

Microsoft knew about the vulnerabilities AND knew that thousands of machines
were being infected with Qhosts but Microsoft still did not issue alert like
they outlined in:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/security/virus/matrix.asp

It looks like your advice of "follow[ed] normal protocol of installing ALL
critical updates upon release" is just pis$ in the wind. The MEDIA - not
Microsoft alerted M$ customers to Trojan.Qhosts.

I read that there are close to 30 KNOWN additional IE vulnerabilities. Are
we going to hear about these from M$ after the next worm turns? Why can't
M$ give us some guidance on IE use in light of the reported
vulnerabilities???

Me out
 
Jim,

I think that it is irresponsible for Microsoft not to alert customers that
machines are being infected through a vulnerability that they know about and
are working on a fix for. (No alert needed for vulnerabilities that have no
know active virus. In this case Qhosts WAS active).

Instructions for avoiding the infection need to be disseminated
immediately - I don't know why anyone thinks this is wrong.

It's like saying: The captain knows that the ship is sinking, but he
doesn't want to tell the passengers because he's working on a fix... and
some of the passengers might want to use the life boats as a precaution.
Crazy world.

Me out
 
Me2 said:
It looks like your advice of "follow[ed] normal protocol of
installing ALL critical updates upon release" is just pis$ in the
wind. The MEDIA - not Microsoft alerted M$ customers to
Trojan.Qhosts.

I read that there are close to 30 KNOWN additional IE
vulnerabilities. Are we going to hear about these from M$ after the
next worm turns? Why can't M$ give us some guidance on IE use in
light of the reported vulnerabilities???

I repeat: I very much would NOT want them to make known any vulnerabilities
prior to having a fix for them. All that does is exacerbate bad conditions.

--
Jim Eshelman, MS-MVP Windows
http://aumha.org/
http://WinSupportCenter.com/


Did you find this newsgroup on the web? A newsreader like Outlook Express
will make your online life a lot easier. Get better help! See:
http://aumha.org/win4/supp1b.htm and
http://support.microsoft.com/support/news/howto/default.asp
 
I prefer if they don't make any grandstand announcements even when they do have
the fix. Even that can lead to trouble as evidenced by the RPC vulnerability.
There was a big initial fuss made about it and that only served to alert the
script kiddies so they could cause problems before everyone was patched.

--
George (Bindar Dundat ©) MS-MVP
This information is provided "AS IS"
It may even be wrong!
For Windows Troubleshooting Tips see
9x/ME
http://aumha.org/win4/a/tshoot.htm
2000/XP
http://aumha.org/win5/a/tshoot.htm
| Me2 wrote:
| > It looks like your advice of "follow[ed] normal protocol of
| > installing ALL critical updates upon release" is just pis$ in the
| > wind. The MEDIA - not Microsoft alerted M$ customers to
| > Trojan.Qhosts.
| >
| > I read that there are close to 30 KNOWN additional IE
| > vulnerabilities. Are we going to hear about these from M$ after the
| > next worm turns? Why can't M$ give us some guidance on IE use in
| > light of the reported vulnerabilities???
|
| I repeat: I very much would NOT want them to make known any vulnerabilities
| prior to having a fix for them. All that does is exacerbate bad conditions.
|
| --
| Jim Eshelman, MS-MVP Windows
| http://aumha.org/
| http://WinSupportCenter.com/
|
|
| Did you find this newsgroup on the web? A newsreader like Outlook Express
| will make your online life a lot easier. Get better help! See:
| http://aumha.org/win4/supp1b.htm and
| http://support.microsoft.com/support/news/howto/default.asp
|
|
 
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 09:40:06 -0700, Stefan Berglund
This latest security bulletin from MS includes IE 5.01. If I'm
running the stock W2K IE version 5.00.3700.1000 (which I don't
use for browsing) am I safe?

No, that's a death-trap if it ever gets any HTML between its teeth
(which it will do sooner or later - it's the OS's HTML rendering
engine). See http://users.iafrica.com/c/cq/cquirke/mimehole.htm as to
why, noting that MIME-spoofing has been routinely used by malware
since BadTrans.B showed the way in November 2001.

Note also that when a 3rd-party app passes HTML to the system to be
rendered (e.g. email apps that use Windows to display HTML mail
"message text") it is likely to do so by passing the OS an HTML file
in the Temp directory. IE is likely to interpret that HTML within the
local HD security zone, which is as lax as can be, and doesn't have a
UI within Tools, Options, Security, Zones to control it.

So if using a 3rd-party email app that offers a chioce between a
"lite" internal HTML renderer, or a Microsoft HTML viewer, I would
always choose the internal one even if that means you can't read your
spam in all its intended glory :-)

For the MIME-spoofing risk, the safe baselines are:

IE 5.01 SP1 + patch
IE 5.01 SP2
IE 5.5 SP1 + patch
IE 5.5 SP2
IE 6 (any subversion or SP level - won't install on any Win95)

Other risks will have other baselines, etc. Contrast the above with
the versions built into Windows...

IE 3.00 (Win95 SR2, SR2.1)
IE 4.00 (Win95 SR2.5, Win98)
IE 5.00 (Win98 SE)
IE 5.5 SP0 (WinME)
IE 6 SP0 (WinXP)
IE 6 SP1 (WinXP SP1, ?SP1a)

....and you can see that not only are all Windows versions south of XP
vulnerable (Win2000 is IE 5.00?), they are also too "old" to patch for
MIME-spoofing and have to be upgraded first.

Final and general tip; when MS lists affected versions, versions older
than those listed are more likely to be succeptable than not - it's
just that MS doesn't test versions no longer supported.

For example, if a flaw is documented to affect IE 5.01, 5.5 etc. this
implies (to me) that IE 5.00 is very likely to be affected as it's the
same 5.xx code base, IE 4.xx pretty likely to be affected, but IE 3.xx
may be OK if the hole is in functionalities added in IE 4, as is so
often the case (e.g. HTML email).

I see this as a reason for very old and frail Win95 systems to stay on
IE 3.xx (preferably 3.02 or better) and use a small and lean alternate
web brower rather than join the IE 4/5/6 fray.

-- Risk Management is the clue that asks:
"Why do I keep open buckets of petrol next to all the
ashtrays in the lounge, when I don't even have a car?"
 
FWIW - cross posting is good; multi posting is bad.

Could you clarify a bit there?

I certainly appreciate the attempts by <name_oversnipped> and others
to get the word out through the newsgroups, and I don't propose they
should stop doing that.

But choosing between one message cross-posted to multiple newsgroups,
and the same message sent individually to each of the same set of
newsgroups, I would vote for the latter. This thread is already 45
posts and counting upwards, and because the original message was
cross-posted, all of these replies will appear in all newsgroups
regardless of which newsgroup they originated in - traffic++

It seems as if you are advocating the reverse, i.e. that such alerts
should be cross posted rather than sent to each news group seperately,
on the general premise that the latter is "bad". I'm interested in
your reasons, as they aren't obvious to me.
 
Cquirke,
Hi!

What I meant by "post" was to the Microsoft security pages.
OK

I know that Microsoft is not an AV vendor (yet) and that AV vendors list an
outrageous number of new viruses/Trojans/worms a day, but it would be nice
if a Trojan/virus/worm is effecting many machines (don't know what that
number is) and the news media already has articles on the top of the Yahoo
or Google News lists describing the Trojan/virus/worm if Microsoft would at
least acknowledge that such a critter exists (with at least post on the M$
security pages). Seems to be simple courtesy to their customers.

Yes, I see your point - there's a difference between "this flaw could
potentially allow a malicious user to... would have to use a
specially-crafted HTML message that..." and "this flaw is already
exploited by several fast-spreading malware that routinely
boiler-plate the required specially-crafted HTML..." :-)

There are precedents too; MS has referred to specific malware in the
past, e.g. the Concept "prank macro", Lovesan/Blaster etc.

MS needs to be careful not to create the impression that because it
does refer to some new malware threats, that it is a suitable and
exclusionary reference for all new malware threats.

I'm not sure if MS should go there, given that there's already an
industry that covers that territory pretty well - setting a high bar
for MS to reach, and all the while everyone would be screaming that MS
is unfairly invading another 3rd-party turf.


The other reason to avoid listing all the malware that are relevant to
a particular hole, is that it begins an ongoing maintenance commitment
for that article (much as adding 3rd-party links to a web page does).

Imagine if MS had name-checked BubbleBoy in the write-up of the EyeDog
that allowed various malware to break through the tissue-paper that
keeps HTML "messages" safe.

The article would be(come) misleading if left unchanged after Kak
raised the ante from curiosity to wide-spread ITW risk. If the
revision claimed the risk was reasonably safe because Kak doesn't
carry a destructive payload, then an urget revision is required when
BleBla.B (or was it San and Valentine?) start doing the rounds, as
AFAICR that one carries a data-destructive hunter-killer payload.

Also, this sort of name-check is just the sort of ego-stroking
exposure that motivates some malware coders. Show them a page
claiming that a hole is safe because current exploiters don't cause
significant damage, and you'll get a Thus, BleBla.B or variant with a
CIH warhead within weeks to months.

As a general observation, the damage factor tends to go up the more
inexperienced and reputation-hungry the malware coder. So it's not so
much the ground-breakers (Concept, Lovesan, BubbleBoy) that you may
have to worry about, it's the me-toos that follow (Thus, Lovesan+RAT,
BleBla.B). Noting for example that Lovesan offered a few day's grace
before it started whacking the Windows Update server, etc.

It's also a reason to take particularly strong riak-management
strategies against malware that travel in easily-editable source form
(aside from the more obvious mutateability). That's why I prefer to
wall out HTML email, WSH etc. completely where possible.

The high-level scripting languages pose heuristic challenges too,
because what they do is less easy to differentiate from normal
activities. A code file that writes to the MBR is easier to spot and
block heuristically than a script that merely enumerates and writes to
files, which is why the overwriting hunter-killer is so dangerous...
and that hunter-killer logic has been ported from raw code
(Zipped_Files) to MS Office VBA to scripting (LoveLetter etc.)


------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Our senses are our UI to reality
 
Jerry Bryant said:
Title: Cumulative Patch for Internet Explorer Execution (828750)
Date: October 3, 2003

Jerry,

The latest article 828750 (MS03-040) has also in the Technical Details a
write-up pointing to this other KB article 828026 saying that this brand
new Media Player patch should be applied as well
828026 Update for Windows Media Player
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;828026

Now I had assumed this was for MP v6.4 with W/98SE as well even though it
says it's for W/ME, but No it does not install on SE giving a not ME prompt

Will there be a security patch for W/98SE that will install on its Media
Player v6.4? There should be right and this must be a glitch?

~~~

....and btw, regarding your post, I have always appreciated when seeing your
once in a while security posts here in the W98 group, and when I did I knew
it was for something important and I should listen up. Yes things can be
spoofed to the inexperienced, but to keep my reply short & simple - as far
as you posting about important critical updates - my vote is Yes, please,
post like you always have - we always have appreciated it.

regards,
Rick


[.....]
 
This is getting be a regular Soap Opera

"As The WORM Turns"

It's not all funny, but we can not lose our sense of humor, or focus least they
win.

good computing,
don
---------



Jim,

You are not reading. A machine at my organization was infected with
Trojan.Qhosts BEFORE ms03=040 was released !!! The machine was behind a
firewall, using a proxy, full up-todate patches, latest antirus. Why do you
think M$ rushed this patch on Firday night? Have you even read the Qhosts
news articles?

Microsoft knew about the vulnerabilities AND knew that thousands of machines
were being infected with Qhosts but Microsoft still did not issue alert like
they outlined in:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/security/virus/matrix.asp

It looks like your advice of "follow[ed] normal protocol of installing ALL
critical updates upon release" is just pis$ in the wind. The MEDIA - not
Microsoft alerted M$ customers to Trojan.Qhosts.

I read that there are close to 30 KNOWN additional IE vulnerabilities. Are
we going to hear about these from M$ after the next worm turns? Why can't
M$ give us some guidance on IE use in light of the reported
vulnerabilities???

Me out
 
Every time someone, MVP or whomever, tauts the access of Windows Updates
from anywhere but the Update button, they are putting less knowledgeable
users in harms way.
 
Papa said:
Every time someone, MVP or whomever, tauts the access of Windows
Updates from anywhere but the Update button, they are putting less
knowledgeable users in harms way.

With respect, I don't buy that. How is it putting someone in harms way to
say to them that while Windows Update should be their first port of call for
patching their machines generally, they can get a specific patch they are
asking about which hasn't appeared on Windows Update yet from the Microsoft
security website?


--
 
Jim, George,

I don't get it! Are you advocating that if a new Trojan/virus/worm is
starting to infect thousands of machines in a serious way that Microsoft
should NOT notify its customers just because they don't have a fix yet!!! I
don't get it - where is this coming from?
| I repeat: I very much would NOT want them to make known any vulnerabilities
| prior to having a fix for them. All that does is exacerbate bad
conditions.

George (Bindar Dundat) said:
I prefer if they don't make any grandstand announcements even when they do have
the fix. Even that can lead to trouble as evidenced by the RPC vulnerability.
There was a big initial fuss made about it and that only served to alert the
script kiddies so they could cause problems before everyone was patched.

So the next worm is out there deleting hard drives, and you guys would stand
by M$ and let it happen - sticking to your "well it might get worse
statements"? I would like to think that this is not the case in that you
have a point where a Trojan/virus/worm is bad enough where a proclamation
from on high from M$ is warranted...

Maybe Trojan.QHosts was not that wide spread so is was prudent to keep it
quiet (event though the news media had tons of articles running), I don't
know.

I would like some kind of notification when the next bug is STARTING to go
around !!! I will look to third parties since it looks like M$ will not be
doing this - and the party line is "kept it quiet..."

Me out

--
George (Bindar Dundat ©) MS-MVP
This information is provided "AS IS"
It may even be wrong!
For Windows Troubleshooting Tips see
9x/ME
http://aumha.org/win4/a/tshoot.htm
2000/XP
http://aumha.org/win5/a/tshoot.htm
| Me2 wrote:
| > It looks like your advice of "follow[ed] normal protocol of
| > installing ALL critical updates upon release" is just pis$ in the
| > wind. The MEDIA - not Microsoft alerted M$ customers to
| > Trojan.Qhosts.
| >
| > I read that there are close to 30 KNOWN additional IE
| > vulnerabilities. Are we going to hear about these from M$ after the
| > next worm turns? Why can't M$ give us some guidance on IE use in
| > light of the reported vulnerabilities???
|
| I repeat: I very much would NOT want them to make known any vulnerabilities
| prior to having a fix for them. All that does is exacerbate bad conditions.
|
| --
| Jim Eshelman, MS-MVP Windows
| http://aumha.org/
| http://WinSupportCenter.com/
|
|
| Did you find this newsgroup on the web? A newsreader like Outlook Express
| will make your online life a lot easier. Get better help! See:
| http://aumha.org/win4/supp1b.htm and
| http://support.microsoft.com/support/news/howto/default.asp
|
|
 
Me2 said:
Jim, George,

I don't get it! Are you advocating that if a new Trojan/virus/worm is
starting to infect thousands of machines in a serious way that
Microsoft should NOT notify its customers just because they don't
have a fix yet!!! I don't get it - where is this coming from?

Pretty close, yes. It's coming from prudence. It's coming from not making
the world a more dangerous place.

If the lock is broken on your front door, you won't be able to fix it for a
couple of days, and someone burgles your house, you don't hang a sign on the
front door that says, "Warning, my lock is broken and burglars can get in."

One new Trojan using a particular exploit won't necessarily be the last.
Every new sentence Microsoft makes public is further information that is
more valuable to the exploiters than to the end users. I believe they
shouldn't say a bloody thing to the public until they are ready to deliver
the fix. It is well established that virus makers watch Microsoft's notices
of such things as a good source of information on what they can exploit.

What Microsoft *should* do, though -- and I believe they in fact do -- is
make the information immediately available to the major antivirus makers.
That's where the fix should come from. People should rely on teir antivirus
software, and not on news bytes from Microsoft, to stay protected from
viruses including Trojans.

--
Jim Eshelman, MS-MVP Windows
http://aumha.org/
http://WinSupportCenter.com/


Did you find this newsgroup on the web? A newsreader like Outlook Express
will make your online life a lot easier. Get better help! See:
http://aumha.org/win4/supp1b.htm and
http://support.microsoft.com/support/news/howto/default.asp
 
Yes, the 'peer review' effect of Usenet newsgroups is very valuable. Wrong
or malicious information is cried down pretty quickly.

--
Fade Away, (e-mail address removed)

Bill Sanderson said:
Not all the regular posters have a "connection" to Microsoft--MVP's do--and
I'm an MVP, although I don't think it is in my sig here--my MVP is in
Windows Networking rather than security, and I'm definitely an amateur here.

And, of course, there are regulars whose posts are better disregarded by
everyone, as I'm sure you've noticed!

The question of whose information to trust is definitely an everyday issue
here, and there's no simple answer, I'm afraid.

That's one reason I think why you'll sometimes see multiple folks giving out
the same answer in a thread (probably not the main one, though!)--sometimes
getting information or a reference that may be out of the usual from
multiple sources can help validate it.
..
..
..
 
The answer is quite simple. As you may have noticed, the Swen virus is
lurking amidst legitimate warnings posted in numerous newsgroups. However
well intended, suggesting to the general user to look for protection from
multiple sources is an accident just waiting to happen when he/she opens a
virus attachment from a hoax warning post.

There is an old saying - "Keep it simple". So my advice will continue to
be - obtain your updates from one place, and one place only - the Update
button.

Best regards.
 
Jim,

somewhat I agree with what you are saying, but I think the scenario (for me)
goes something like this:

The lock on your front door has a defect, but you don't know it! And a
thief is going around breaking into houses using a special key that takes
advantage of the defect. The lock manufacturer know about the defect, the
thieves know about the defect, but the lock owners do not.

Is it prudent or irresponsible for the manufacturer to notify lock owners
that their houses are in danger of being burglarized because their locks
have a defect?

If I got a notice from my lock manufacture that my lock is vulnerable, I
could at least close the dead bolt or change the lock, put a chair behind
the door or whatever to secure my house. If I did not get a notice from my
lock manufacture that my lock is vulnerable, then the next thief could just
walk in.

I know what you will say: "The manufacturer should say nothing until they
have a fix." What the heck - its better to have a few thousand houses
broken into than to alert more thieves of the broken lock. But YOU will not
be happy when it's YOUR house that was broken into because you were not
alerted to block access to your house with something more than just the
defective lock. YOU will be screaming bloody murder that someone did not
let you know about the defective lock!

Me out
 
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