Irreconcilable Differences

  • Thread starter Thread starter Susan Bugher
  • Start date Start date
Susan said:
It's not necessary for you to provide reasons for your vote.
I did provide the reason I proposed the move: Irreconcilable Differences
When two people don't get along some sort of change in the *situation*
is advisable.
Married couples obtain a "no fault" divorces. I had hoped that something
of the sort could occur here.
I know of no compelling circumstance that prevents the Pricelessware
site from moving. If you or someone else does please post that information.
Why move the Pricelessware site? Why not?
Click to expand...

Susan,
I think what I'm trying to say and what several others would like
to know is specifically what are the "Irreconcilable Differences".

As for there being "no compelling circumstance that prevents the
Pricelessware site from moving", somebody in this thread (I forget who
and don't want to reread everything to find out) pointed out that the
current address, http://priclessware.org, is *very* easy to find.
Having the site at such a location serves the interests of the group
very well.

Perhaps everybody just needs to take a deep breath and start the
discussion (in private if you and Genna like) over again. Bear in mind
that there's no real reason to get upset. You're both on the same team.

Susan, we've had our differences in the past, but I really do admire
your dedication to this group and all of your fine work for it. I
could and do say the same about Genna. Please calm down and try to
work this out.
 
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:16:28 GMT, "*ProteanThread*"

<Snipped
Can't help but wonder if that was deliberate considering all the lectures I
and others have recieved from Susan about top posting, copying / pasting
threads, and other neittiquite.
Click to expand...
*MAJOR* mis-communcation going on here. Zero points for both parties.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but these are topics that should've have been discussed privately
when Genna first started hosting pricelessware (or even before the website
went on Genna's server). Why now ? Why here ? Zero points for both
parties.
Click to expand...
Agreed. No need to raise the issue more than twice, either publicly and or
privately.
Click to expand...
So far nothing has been achieved here.
Click to expand...

Correct. This whole thread has achieved nothing.

It would seem to me that there are problems here on both sides.
I can understand why the main page may be restricted access, I cannot
understand why Genna should modify a public page without first
informing Susan. Who is the Webmaster? The final say for any
alteration should go to the Webmaster, even if the Webmasters' actions
were ultimately constrained by committee (the NG), which in reality
they are not. The Webmaster alone should ultimately control who edits
pages and what format and content they contain.

The host should have a duty toward the Webmaster to provide facility
without let or hinderance providing that there are no financial,
moral, or possibly technical problems over which the host must have
the final say because of potential legal ramifications.

If these guidelines are adhered to there should be no need to move the
site to another host. If either or both parties refuse to abide by
them, then there is clearly a need. With regard to the offending main
page, this can be simply sorted by agreeing a format and including an
auto redirect to a new 'home page' which can be edited by the
Webmaster at will. I do not see any real problems.

If the webmaster both *needs* and *requires* access to the control
panel, then agreement must me made to allow this access. If agreement
cannot be reached privately (possibly with the help of an arbitrator,
as Henk suggested) then a firm decision should be made by the
Webmaster either to stay or move. ( I can guess which it would be) In
this event it would be politic for the Webmaster to draft a
justification for this decision to acf., clearly stating the reasons
for the decision (without the personality clash).

Personally I would prefer to see this "dispute" settled and the PL
stay where it is. The continuation of this dispute in a public forum
will achieve nothing.


Fanman_UK

To reply by email remove the "fanman"
 
John said:
Susan,
I think what I'm trying to say and what several others would like to
know is specifically what are the "Irreconcilable Differences".

As for there being "no compelling circumstance that prevents the
Pricelessware site from moving", somebody in this thread (I forget who
and don't want to reread everything to find out) pointed out that the
current address, http://priclessware.org, is *very* easy to find. Having
the site at such a location serves the interests of the group very well.
Click to expand...

That was Q. Having the pricelessware.org *domain* does serve the
interests of the group. I don't know if the domain name will be
available if the site moves to a new location. It will be a PITA if it
is not.

Genna said "I have forwarded to SOS the necessary information that will
remove the need for my own future involvement." I don't know what that
means and to date SOS has not posted.
Perhaps everybody just needs to take a deep breath and start the
discussion (in private if you and Genna like) over again. Bear in mind
that there's no real reason to get upset. You're both on the same team.

Susan, we've had our differences in the past, but I really do admire
your dedication to this group and all of your fine work for it. I could
and do say the same about Genna. Please calm down and try to work this out.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the kind words. :) They are *much* appreciated.

There's been almost a month of discussion. There's been no progress.

Genna had this to say about me in her first appearance in this thread:

"The members of this newsgroup should think long and hard whether
someone who is so inflexible, so closed-minded, so manipulative, so
deceitful is really the best person to represent the values of the PL."

John - this is *not* a good relationship. I want out.

There are "Irreconcilable Differences". Genna and I are *not* on the
same team. IMO posting more of the email exchange will make a bad
situation worse.

I'm asking you to judge me by what you know of me. I did not make this
request lightly.

Susan
 
That's self-serving and inaccurate.
You KNOW that you do not always discuss things in the newsgroup.
You KNOW that you don't give the members of the newsgroup all of the
information.
Click to expand...

[...]

Oh dear! And people are trying to convince us all that if we only let
women have more say in running the world, all would be sweetness and
light. ;-)


Cheers, Phred.
 
Susan Bugher said:
That was Q. Having the pricelessware.org *domain* does serve the
interests of the group. I don't know if the domain name will be
available if the site moves to a new location. It will be a PITA if it
is not.

Genna said "I have forwarded to SOS the necessary information that will
remove the need for my own future involvement." I don't know what that
means and to date SOS has not posted.

Thank you for the kind words. :) They are *much* appreciated.

There's been almost a month of discussion. There's been no progress.

Genna had this to say about me in her first appearance in this thread:

"The members of this newsgroup should think long and hard whether
someone who is so inflexible, so closed-minded, so manipulative, so
deceitful is really the best person to represent the values of the PL."

John - this is *not* a good relationship. I want out.

There are "Irreconcilable Differences". Genna and I are *not* on the
same team. IMO posting more of the email exchange will make a bad
situation worse.

I'm asking you to judge me by what you know of me. I did not make this
request lightly.

Susan
Click to expand...


I still don't get it. So far all I've seen is a bad cat fight thats not
getting anywhere. I have a lot of respect for Susan and Genna both, but
this thread is absolutely pointless.


--

Woodzy

http://www.rtdos.com (alt OS for games based on the classics)
http://rtdos.com/debate (charged political discussion)
http://rtdos.com/forum (rtdos message boards)
http://rtdos.com/rtdos (rtdos active developer chat)

http://rtdos.com/chat
Chats scheduled every Thursday @ 7PM MDT (0100 GMT) and
every Sunday @ 1PM MDT (1900 GMT)
 
Roger said:
What you have told us so far is that once when you asked Genna about
space restrictions you got no answer.
She has explained that she missed that question.
Click to expand...

Roger,

I read her "explanation".
I question the validity of the "explanation".
IOW - don't believe everything you read. . .

Susan
 
Susan, we've had our differences in the past, but I really do admire
your dedication to this group and all of your fine work for it. I
could and do say the same about Genna. Please calm down and try to
work this out.
Click to expand...

I'll certainly echo this sentiment. Who would have thought that the person
with the most sensible thing to say was John Corliss? :oP <ducks>
 
Susan said:
Roger,

I read her "explanation".
I question the validity of the "explanation".
IOW - don't believe everything you read. . .

Susan
Click to expand...

We have to believe what we read, because you're both not giving us all the
information to understand this endless thread. With respect for both of you
and for the Pricelessware site, IMHO it's kind of weak to use quotation
marks as you haven't explained much either about the subject of this thread.
Ladies, what's going on ? Give us something to read that we can believe and
that isn't vague, or please take this somewhere else.

Rod
 
I'm asking you to judge me by what you know of me. I did not make this
request lightly.
Click to expand...

but what about those of us who don't know either of you? This is a
public forum were many many people rarely if ever post. They just come
along see something interesting or post a request, get a reply and go. I
am one of those people and this argument comes across as a storm in a
teacup. Two people at loggerheads over something *seemingly* petty. You
keep saying there are irreconcilable differences. Gemma has asked what
they are and I think quite a few people would be interested in that
answer especially as you have not really given a direct answer. Perhaps
Gemma knows what they are and isn't letting on. I don't know as I don't
know either of you, other than the connection with PL. Were you friends
at one point?

However you both *should* be able to work this out. Go back to email or
phone or chat. Have an open, frank discussion with each other. Lay out
what each sees as the problem. Stay calm. If it's not black and white
see if a compromise can be reached. Breathe. If it means apologising to
each other, do it, you are both mature people. If it means the site
still has to move so be it but if that is the case it would be a shame if
it left what appears to have been a good working relationship (at one
point) or friendship, in tatters.
 
Oh dear! And people are trying to convince us all that if we only let
women have more say in running the world, all would be sweetness and
light. ;-)
Click to expand...

I guess you have never seen The View.
 
John said:
At least then you, SOS etc. will no longer need to be involved in this
dopey discussion.
Click to expand...

The fact is that no one should have had to be involved in this dopey
discussion.
 
Susan said:
There's been almost a month of discussion. There's been no progress.
Click to expand...

Once again, you misrepresent the facts, Susan.

Discussion implies that you have been articulated your needs and
requirements. You never did.
The only concrete request you made was in this newsgroup and that was to
move the server.
How could there have been progress when you not once got down to your
specific requirements?
Genna had this to say about me in her first appearance in this thread:

"The members of this newsgroup should think long and hard whether
someone who is so inflexible, so closed-minded, so manipulative, so
deceitful is really the best person to represent the values of the
PL."

John - this is *not* a good relationship. I want out.
Click to expand...

From the onset of this situation, YOU have acted in bad faith.
From the onset of this situation, YOU have been unwilling to discuss any
specifics that could have brought a quick resolution without the need for
DramaFest Summer 2004.
From the onset of this situation, YOU have insinuated unethical behavior on
my part (all the while cushioning it in back-handed compliments)
From the onset of this situation, YOU have misrepresented the facts to this
newsgroup.

Accept responsibility for your part in the mess of it all, Susan.
YOU are not a victim.
There are "Irreconcilable Differences". Genna and I are *not* on the
same team. IMO posting more of the email exchange will make a bad
situation worse.

I'm asking you to judge me by what you know of me. I did not make this
request lightly.
Click to expand...

No one asked you to post the e-mail exchange.

You were asked time and again, including by me from the very start of this
situation and by the members of this group since you have brought up this
problem, as to what has not been working for you. You were unable to do so.
You were asked how a move would resolve those issues. You never managed to
articulate a logical argument as to why this move was necessary.

You say that the working situation was difficult.
How interesting that in that very time-frame, the PL has seen its most
prolific growth in content.
How interesting that in that very time-frame, the grand total of issues you
raised about the unsuitably of the current framework was .... zero.

Rewriting history does not make it so.
 
Olaf said:
Genna does nothing more than "pay the bill", which isn't much. And,
now, she's "turned it over" to SOS, who's another paranoid freak.

Susan actually works on the site and keeps it up to date. She's also
added a usability to the site that was never there before.

I'm suspect of Genna's sudden interest in the site. I wonder if Genna
now thinks she might be able to make some money from this site. That
is
*pure speculation* on my part, though.
Click to expand...

I was wrong.
Now, the thread is surreal.
 
Susan said:
From my POV I have been doing that job under difficult working
conditions. I have proposed a change in the working conditions. From
my POV that is a reasonable request.

You and others asked for information and reasons. I have furnished
some of the information and some of the reasons. Do you want more?
Click to expand...

I would just like to specify something, for historical context.

When *I* first asked Susan to help with the PL, she would send me the
revised versions of the PL and I would then upload them to the server. In
order to facilitate the process, *I* gave her FTP access so that she would
be able to manage it without needing to go through me.

I also had said to her from the start that she should tell me what she
needed.

Now Susan wants us to believe that she has been laboring under an unworkable
situation. Not one concrete example yet to back up this claim. Not once
before this incident has Susan ever suggested that she needed a different
set-up or that the current one was unsatisfactory. Not ONCE.

Furthermore, and much more telling, why is it then that the first time I
hear about the current system not working properly is on a public post to
this group requesting a move to a different server?

Finally, despite several requests by members of this group, Susan has yet to
explain what functionality a change in servers will provide to her.
 
Susan said:
I read her "explanation".
I question the validity of the "explanation".
IOW - don't believe everything you read. . .
Click to expand...

Right, because I am the one who has been continuously misrepresenting the
facts to this newsgroup.
 
but what about those of us who don't know either of you? This is a
public forum were many many people rarely if ever post. They just come
along see something interesting or post a request, get a reply and go. I
am one of those people and this argument comes across as a storm in a
teacup. Two people at loggerheads over something *seemingly* petty.
Click to expand...

Amen. After reading endless posts in this thread the conclusion I
come to is ... Susan has a bee in her bonnet because she does not have
complete control over the website so she wants to take her ball and
play somewhere else. Enough of this. I have to killfile this
subject.

siDetRaked
 
I do apologize for the continued postings to this thread.

I had intended to let my posts from yesterday be the last ones I would make
in this thread, but there were additional points brought up which I felt I
needed to address.

My own future involvement is no longer relevant. As such, I don't intend to
comment in this thread again. Please do not interepret it as lack of
interest, but rather my contribution to a speedy conclusion of this
interminable ordeal.
 
Jack D. Russell said:
======================================================================
* Reply by Jack D. Russell, Sr. <[email protected]>
* Newsgroup: alt.comp.freeware
* Reply to: All; "siDetRaked" <[email protected]>
* Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:28:20 GMT
* Subj: Re: Irreconcilable Differences
======================================================================

s> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 04:51:02 -0500, "Jack D. Russell, Sr."

JF> dopey discussion.

JDR>> The first post I've seen here that makes any sense at all.
JDR>> Hear,hear.

s> I agree.

LOL....We're on a roll. 3 people that all agree on the same thing. I
do believe that's a first for this thread. Anyone else? ;)
Click to expand...

I agree, it's a first!
HK
 
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