Irreconcilable Differences

  • Thread starter Thread starter Susan Bugher
  • Start date Start date
»Q« said:
Why should that question even be considered?
Click to expand...

Working conditions are difficult.
Yet if you have reasons for wanting to remove the PL from
pricelessware.org, they are your reasons, and you are free to
discuss them here even if you have already discussed them in e-mail.
Click to expand...

IMO private means *private* - I don't feel that door can be opened
partway. . . Genna has broken the seal of privacy with a flurry of
accusations. I just posted a response.

If you have further questions after reading that please ask.
To support the notion that we should not need to discuss this, you
note in another post that there was no discussion when the PL went
to pricelessware.org. There was none because everyone thought it
was a good idea, a no-brainer. Pricelessware.org was and is the
ideal domain for the PL, easy to search for or to remember. (There
was some discussion of the pricelessware.com and .net domains, which
were not available.) Prior to pricelessware.org, it could be a PiTA
to find the PL on the web, whereas now it is very easy.
Click to expand...

Domains can be moved to new hosts. I don't know if Genna will allow use
of the pricelessware.org domain if the decision is to move. IMO that is
not an *overwhelming* problem. A PITA - yes.
In the absence of reasons to remove the PL from pricelessware.org,
it should stay. And reasons for removing it do not appear to be
forthcoming.
Click to expand...

IMO the proposed move is not a Big Deal. Genna has chosen to make it a
Big Deal. I hoped to *avoid* a public blood letting. The situation has
changed - the bloodshed has started. So be it. Answers will be made.

Susan
 
Susan said:
IMO you have rather thoroughly breached the seal of privacy on the
email correspondence and I now am free to respond.
Click to expand...

Referring to something in general terms is a far cry from reposting an
e-mail, which includes my e-mail address in a non-spam-proof manner.

I am hereby requesting that you cancel your post.

If you feel the need to recopy the contents of my e-mails, I would request
that you would have the decency of not subjecting me to further spam. That
you would recopy it in the first place, and that you would do it in the
manner in which you do it, says much more about you than I ever could.
The next email I received from Genna was sent on June 5th.

Genna told me in later emails that this email was her *response* to my
Feb. 29th email.
Click to expand...

This is incorrect.
My response to your e-mail from February was sent on March 4th:
"Cool.
We should talk."

No, I *never* said that the June 5th e-mail was my response to your February
e-mail. Why would I? Again, you are misrepresenting the facts.
Yes, I didn't get into further details. There was NO urgency. The 2005 PL
was more than 8 months away.
Yes, I didn't respond to the question about the size limit. Yes, I should
have. I honestly don't remember reading it, so it's possible that it didn't
register. Having said that, what prevented you from sending you a follow-up
e-mail? If there are failings, you should accept your share of
responsibility, something you are systematically unwilling to do.
It's perhaps worth noting a couple of points:

I began a thread on May 30th. Subject: Cumulative Pricelessware List

Genna did not participate in that discussion. I completed the
revisions
to the Cumulative Pricelessware List on June 4th.
Click to expand...

I didn't comment because there was nothing to add at that point.
Genna's post was sent on June 5th.

I do not know if the programs on Genna's pages correspond to the
programs on the Cumulative List. She did not furnish that information
and I have not had time to make a detailed comparison.
Click to expand...

Those are the original listings.
The page that Genna "hated" and revised was one of my pages. It is
located in a part of the site that I do not have access to.
Click to expand...

Already covered and discussed elsewhere.
Again, you are misrepresenting facts. I didn't state that I hated a page. I
said that I hated the logo. It looked jagged and amateurish.
In hindsight, I should have run that by you, but I had no idea you would get
so emotional over such a trivial matter.
Furthermore, your choice of words is misleading. The page is not located in
*a* part of the site that you do not have access to, it is the *only* page
on the whole site to which you do not have access. The reason for this was
explained in the previous thread.
failure to communicate in a timely manner. . .
Inaccurate

failure to respond to my questions. . .
Click to expand...

Already addressed above.
I've been working around *unnecessary* problems for a long time. . .
Click to expand...

Again, you have never once raised any of these issues. Not once.
Does it even occur to you that you would not have to work around *imaginary*
problems if you would simply raise issues instead of pretending all is fine?

Who exactly has failed to communicate her issues, letting them fester only
to see them resurface in such a passive aggressive manner?


As I said before, I have forwarded to SOS the necessary information that
will remove the need for my own future involvement.
 
Susan said:
I plead guilty to strong convictions - I *am* always saying things
should be discussed in ACF and *decided* by newsgroup participants. I
do believe the group should have *all* the information.
Click to expand...


That's self-serving and inaccurate.
You KNOW that you do not always discuss things in the newsgroup.
You KNOW that you don't give the members of the newsgroup all of the
information.
I see no *way* to discuss the past. . .
I see no *point* in discussing the past. . .

That's the way it looks from where I'm sitting.
Click to expand...


This is a classic "my way or the highway" mentality.
More's the pity.
 
Tramp said:
|The page that Genna "hated" and revised was one of my pages. It is
|located in a part of the site that I do not have access to.

Stop exaggerating things. This is exactly what Genna was talking about.
You are totally twisting the facts. Genna has already stated that the
only part of the site that you don't have access to is the control panel
<[email protected]> she stated the
reason why you don't have access to this. She stated also stated that
lack of access to this section in no way hinders your ability to manage
the Pricelessware site. Yet here you are implying that there are more
things you don't have access to. Implying that you can't do your job
because of limitations set up by Genna.
Click to expand...

I made a statement of fact. The exaggeration, twisting, turning,
implications, misinterpretation etc. etc. are all on your side.

Susan
 
Susan said:
Working conditions are difficult.
Click to expand...

How so?
You continue to make general statements that are not substantiated by the
facts.
You do not provide specifics of how the current set-up has hindered your
ability to properly maintain the site. It could be argued, given the rather
important increase in content over the past year, that you have, in fact,
NOT been hindered at all.

Furthermore, you cannot argue that working conditions are difficult when you
have not ONCE mentioned anything as an issue.
IMO private means *private* - I don't feel that door can be opened
partway. . . Genna has broken the seal of privacy with a flurry of
accusations. I just posted a response.
Click to expand...

Again, I did not repost specifics, but rather general references.
I did so reluctantly, but I did feel it was necessary since you were
misrepresenting facts and leading the members of this group into believing
that your points were factual when they were not.
IMO the proposed move is not a Big Deal. Genna has chosen to make it a
Big Deal. I hoped to *avoid* a public blood letting. The situation has
changed - the bloodshed has started. So be it. Answers will be made.
Click to expand...

Excuse me, but the proposed move *is* a big deal. Financial considerations
aside, you initially brought this up under the guise of a dire need due to
my behavior. You made this about me, Susan. This is personal.

Please accept responsibility for your own actions. There was NO need to drag
the newsgroup into this little drama-fest. Twice I tried to address this
with you rationally and privately. You have chosen to make a public issue.
So be it.
 
|I made a statement of fact. The exaggeration, twisting, turning,
|implications, misinterpretation etc. etc. are all on your side.

I think not. Here is the exact post that Genna made.

(e-mail address removed) says...
||>
|> I have limited access to the PL site - that creates problems (I was
|> unable to upload to the site for several days last week).
|
|This is incorrect.
|The only thing you do NOT have access to is the main page for the simple
|reason that it would give you access to the Control Panel which contains my
|financial information.
|
|As for the inability to access the site, I still don't know what the problem
|was, but that was corrected within a couple of days. I don't believe that
|has ever happened before.
|
|I don't appreciate your attempts to present a one-time occurence as a
|systemic problem.
|
|> Lack of access and lack of communication are a *really* bad combination.
|
|Whoa...
|Again, lack of access is not an accurate statement. See above.
|
|I am puzzled as to what you would refer to as lack of communication.

It is perfectly clear that the ONLY place you don't have access is the
control panel.
 
Susan said:
Genna and I communicated by email - then we communicated publicly in the
"PL issues" thread. Since then we have had a further exchange of emails.
(snip)
Click to expand...

My vote is to leave the Pricelessware site where it is. since you
haven't elucidated any reasons for your wanting to move it, I will not
provide any reason for my wanting it to stay where it is.
 
ranrad said:
I've lurked here for many years now, had my ears pinned back when I
inadvertantly mis-spelt Genna as Geena.
I can remember Genna, SOS, Tiger, John Corlis, all regulars, and all the
founders of ACF & Pricelessware if memory serves.
Click to expand...

those guys are *NOT* acf founders...
My view, they should decide. I haven't seen or heard of Genna in a long
while, but if she is still involved then her wishes should be respected.
Susan, if you are not happy then do a web site of Pricelessware the way you
want it, let Genna keep her site the way she wants it then the ACF readers
can make their own choice which one they go to and/or prefer.
HTH, but I doubt it will :-)
Click to expand...

I've still yet to see specifics as to what brought this on.


--

Woodzy
http://www.rtdos.com (alternate OS for games based on the classics)
http://rtdos.com/debate (politically charged discussions)
http://rtdos.com/guestbook (submit your links here)
http://rtdos.com/forum (rtdos message boards)
http://rtdos.com/rtdos (rtdos active developer chat)

http://rtdos.com/chat
retro themed chats scheduled every Thursday @ 7PM MDT (0100 GMT) and
every Sunday @ 1PM MDT (1900 GMT)
 
Susan Bugher said:
I made a statement of fact. The exaggeration, twisting, turning,
implications, misinterpretation etc. etc. are all on your side.

Susan
--
Click to expand...


.....and acf regulars wonders why I, Andy, Vic, and others have problems with
the so called acf faq.


--

Woodzy
http://www.rtdos.com (alternate OS for games based on the classics)
http://rtdos.com/debate (politically charged discussions)
http://rtdos.com/guestbook (submit your links here)
http://rtdos.com/forum (rtdos message boards)
http://rtdos.com/rtdos (rtdos active developer chat)

http://rtdos.com/chat
retro themed chats scheduled every Thursday @ 7PM MDT (0100 GMT) and
every Sunday @ 1PM MDT (1900 GMT)
 
Tramp said:
|I made a statement of fact. The exaggeration, twisting, turning,
|implications, misinterpretation etc. etc. are all on your side.

I think not. Here is the exact post that Genna made.

(e-mail address removed) says...
||>
|> I have limited access to the PL site - that creates problems (I was
|> unable to upload to the site for several days last week).
|
|This is incorrect.
|The only thing you do NOT have access to is the main page for the simple
|reason that it would give you access to the Control Panel which contains my
|financial information.
|
|As for the inability to access the site, I still don't know what the problem
|was, but that was corrected within a couple of days. I don't believe that
|has ever happened before.
|
|I don't appreciate your attempts to present a one-time occurence as a
|systemic problem.
|
|> Lack of access and lack of communication are a *really* bad combination.
|
|Whoa...
|Again, lack of access is not an accurate statement. See above.
|
|I am puzzled as to what you would refer to as lack of communication.

It is perfectly clear that the ONLY place you don't have access is the
control panel.
Click to expand...


If that is true, then Susan would need to look for a host that gives her
access to the control panel. As someone who has his own website (and given
access for publishing to others), I can fully understand why Genna never
gave Susan access to the control panel. That is something that should never
be taken litely. On the other hand, I can see Susan's side because it is
difficult to maintain pages without some access to the control panel. There
should have been some sort of solution a long time ago without resorting to
this.

I, for one, am not going to be like others in the group and blindly support
Susan *OR* Genna until I have all the information since I do not and neither
party is supplying or since neither wishes to divulge such information then
that is EOT for me.

Good Luck to both of you.


--

Woodzy
http://www.rtdos.com (alternate OS for games based on the classics)
http://rtdos.com/debate (politically charged discussions)
http://rtdos.com/guestbook (submit your links here)
http://rtdos.com/forum (rtdos message boards)
http://rtdos.com/rtdos (rtdos active developer chat)

http://rtdos.com/chat
retro themed chats scheduled every Thursday @ 7PM MDT (0100 GMT) and
every Sunday @ 1PM MDT (1900 GMT)
 
Genna Reeney said:
Referring to something in general terms is a far cry from reposting an
e-mail, which includes my e-mail address in a non-spam-proof manner.

I am hereby requesting that you cancel your post.

If you feel the need to recopy the contents of my e-mails, I would request
that you would have the decency of not subjecting me to further spam. That
you would recopy it in the first place, and that you would do it in the
manner in which you do it, says much more about you than I ever could.
Click to expand...

Can't help but wonder if that was deliberate considering all the lectures I
and others have recieved from Susan about top posting, copying / pasting
threads, and other neittiquite.
This is incorrect.
My response to your e-mail from February was sent on March 4th:
"Cool.
We should talk."

No, I *never* said that the June 5th e-mail was my response to your February
e-mail. Why would I? Again, you are misrepresenting the facts.
Yes, I didn't get into further details. There was NO urgency. The 2005 PL
was more than 8 months away.
Yes, I didn't respond to the question about the size limit. Yes, I should
have. I honestly don't remember reading it, so it's possible that it didn't
register. Having said that, what prevented you from sending you a follow-up
e-mail? If there are failings, you should accept your share of
responsibility, something you are systematically unwilling to do.
Click to expand...

*MAJOR* mis-communcation going on here. Zero points for both parties.
Already covered and discussed elsewhere.
Again, you are misrepresenting facts. I didn't state that I hated a page. I
said that I hated the logo. It looked jagged and amateurish.
In hindsight, I should have run that by you, but I had no idea you would get
so emotional over such a trivial matter.
Furthermore, your choice of words is misleading. The page is not located in
*a* part of the site that you do not have access to, it is the *only* page
on the whole site to which you do not have access. The reason for this was
explained in the previous thread.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but these are topics that should've have been discussed privately
when Genna first started hosting pricelessware (or even before the website
went on Genna's server). Why now ? Why here ? Zero points for both
parties.
Already addressed above.
Click to expand...

Agreed. No need to raise the issue more than twice, either publicly and or
privately.
Again, you have never once raised any of these issues. Not once.
Does it even occur to you that you would not have to work around *imaginary*
problems if you would simply raise issues instead of pretending all is
Click to expand...
fine?

I still don't get it. Exactly *WHAT* are the bleeping issues here?
Who exactly has failed to communicate her issues, letting them fester only
to see them resurface in such a passive aggressive manner?


As I said before, I have forwarded to SOS the necessary information that
will remove the need for my own future involvement.
Click to expand...


So far nothing has been achieved here.
 
Genna Reeney said:
Susan has not shown why it is that she cannot maintain the site where it is
currently.
Click to expand...


I concur, why move ?


--

Woodzy
http://www.rtdos.com (alternate OS for games based on the classics)
http://rtdos.com/debate (politically charged discussions)
http://rtdos.com/guestbook (submit your links here)
http://rtdos.com/forum (rtdos message boards)
http://rtdos.com/rtdos (rtdos active developer chat)

http://rtdos.com/chat
retro themed chats scheduled every Thursday @ 7PM MDT (0100 GMT) and
every Sunday @ 1PM MDT (1900 GMT)
 
John said:
Susan Bugher wrote:

My vote is to leave the Pricelessware site where it is. since you
haven't elucidated any reasons for your wanting to move it, I will not
provide any reason for my wanting it to stay where it is.
Click to expand...

It's not necessary for you to provide reasons for your vote.

I did provide the reason I proposed the move: Irreconcilable Differences

When two people don't get along some sort of change in the *situation*
is advisable.

Married couples obtain a "no fault" divorces. I had hoped that something
of the sort could occur here.

I know of no compelling circumstance that prevents the Pricelessware
site from moving. If you or someone else does please post that information.

Why move the Pricelessware site? Why not?

Susan
 
Genna Reeney said:
I hope that my post was sufficient to clarify matters.
Click to expand...


Ok, Susan *AND* Genna, why not debate this in a real time public chat ?

http://www.rtdos.com/chat enter the room that says freeware

let me know and we can schedule this in real time.

because we're obviously not getting anywhere here.

i'm sorry but its just a suggestion - take it as you wish.


--

Woodzy
http://www.rtdos.com (alternate OS for games based on the classics)
http://rtdos.com/debate (politically charged discussions)
http://rtdos.com/guestbook (submit your links here)
http://rtdos.com/forum (rtdos message boards)
http://rtdos.com/rtdos (rtdos active developer chat)

http://rtdos.com/chat
retro themed chats scheduled every Thursday @ 7PM MDT (0100 GMT) and
every Sunday @ 1PM MDT (1900 GMT)
 
John Corliss said:
My vote is to leave the Pricelessware site where it is. since you
haven't elucidated any reasons for your wanting to move it, I will not
provide any reason for my wanting it to stay where it is.
Click to expand...



Enuff said. End of Thread.....


--

Woodzy
http://www.rtdos.com (alternate OS for games based on the classics)
http://rtdos.com/debate (politically charged discussions)
http://rtdos.com/guestbook (submit your links here)
http://rtdos.com/forum (rtdos message boards)
http://rtdos.com/rtdos (rtdos active developer chat)

http://rtdos.com/chat
retro themed chats scheduled every Thursday @ 7PM MDT (0100 GMT) and
every Sunday @ 1PM MDT (1900 GMT)
 
Susan said:
It's not necessary for you to provide reasons for your vote.

I did provide the reason I proposed the move: Irreconcilable Differences

When two people don't get along some sort of change in the *situation*
is advisable.

Married couples obtain a "no fault" divorces. I had hoped that something
of the sort could occur here.

I know of no compelling circumstance that prevents the Pricelessware
List from moving. If you or someone else does please post that information.

Why move the Pricelessware List? Why not?

Susan
Click to expand...
 
Genna said:
This situation is surreal.





I would not say that we have communicated.

I have addressed all of your questions.
You have continued to ask questions, demanding answers under the threat of
shutting down e-mail exchanges, yet you have neither acknowledged my
responses nor answered my own requests for clarification as to the nature of
the problem.





You have not given one example of how the current arrangement was not
working.
You have not articulated a logical rationale for the need of a move to a new
server.
Click to expand...


Hello Genna,

IMO you have rather thoroughly breached the seal of privacy on the email
correspondence and I now am free to respond.

Here is one example of how the current arrangement has been "working".
Below is a copy of an email I sent to Genna on Feb. 24 of this year:

--------------

Subject: Pricelessware Help File
From: Susan Bugher
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:25:40 -0500
To: "Reeney, Genna"

Hi Genna,

FYI - let me and/or the group know if you have any concerns about this.

Karen S created two CHM files of the Pricelessware site. The Subject
heading for the thread about that is: CHM of Pricelessware, here

<q>
If anyone might want it... I've a copy of the Pricelessware.org site
compiled into HTML Help format, for offline reference/reading.
</q>

I uploaded the files to the PL site per a suggestion in the thread. What
is the size limit on the PL site? (The two files total close to 2MB.)

While I'm here . . .

Do you foresee yourself doing the Pricelessware pages in the future?

If you don't plan to return to the fray I'll work on Plan B: some means
of ensuring that maintainance of the site can be continued easily by others.

My long term goal is to work myself out of a job . . .

Susan

--------------

The next email I received from Genna was sent on June 5th.

Genna told me in later emails that this email was her *response* to my
Feb. 29th email.

Here is a copy of that email:

------------

Subject: PL issues
From: "Genna Reeney"
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:59:54 -0400
To: "Susan Bugher"

Hi Susan -

Hope your summer is going well.
I wanted to check if you were you have had enough of the stress of manning
the PL.

Just to let you know:
- I changed the logo on the front page. I hated how it looked
- the 2001 May final PL is uploaded http://pricelessware.org/2001/
- the 2000 Feb final PL is uploaded http://pricelessware.org/2000/
- the original PL is uploaded http://pricelessware.org/first/

------------

It's perhaps worth noting a couple of points:

I began a thread on May 30th. Subject: Cumulative Pricelessware List

Genna did not participate in that discussion. I completed the revisions
to the Cumulative Pricelessware List on June 4th.

Genna's post was sent on June 5th.

I do not know if the programs on Genna's pages correspond to the
programs on the Cumulative List. She did not furnish that information
and I have not had time to make a detailed comparison.

The page that Genna "hated" and revised was one of my pages. It is
located in a part of the site that I do not have access to.

IMO all of you should now have *some* idea of why I think it is
necessary to move the Pricelessware List.

failure to communicate in a timely manner. . .
failure to respond to my questions. . .
I've been working around *unnecessary* problems for a long time. . .

IMO it's time to move to a new web site.

I have not responded to the remainder of Genna's post. If newsgroup
participants wish me to respond I will post more of the email
correspondence. IMO that would not serve any useful purpose but I will
oblige if the group feels it is necessary.

Susan
 
Genna and I communicated by email - then we communicated publicly in the
"PL issues" thread. Since then we have had a further exchange of emails.

The bottom line? The current arrangement is not working. It's not going
to work.

I do not intend to discuss what happened, why it happened, who was to
blame etc. etc. etc. Such a discussion won't change the bottom line.

I would like to move the Pricelessware List to a new location.

The Pricelessware List has been hosted on other sites in the past (IIRC
the last move was about two years ago). Some free sites have been
offered. If they are not suitable others can be found. Hosting details -
who, how, where etc. will require discussion.

The move itself is not a Big Deal. Getting the Pricelessware site up and
running at a new location will only take a few hours.

I would like to continue as webmaster. My top priority: ensuring that
the Pricelessware List can be prepared and maintained easily by others
when I leave.

I don't like putting the group in the position it's in now - I want to
ensure that it won't happen again.

Questions, comments and *votes* (move/stay) please.

Susan


FYI: I sent Genna an email when I started the "PL issues" thread. I will
notify her this time too.
Click to expand...
Personally im not bothered where the sites hosted , but it does seem sad
that two people who obviously have put a lot of time/talent into making
things work would fall out this way.I guess having so much commitment and
putting so much energy and time into the site can perhaps intensify feelings
etc.From reading the thread and having no affilation to anyone , it seems to
me that the "irreconcilable differences" maybe has grown out of all
proportions.It doesnt seem to me that any malicous intent has been inteneded
by yourself or geena.I would suggest that both of you take a step back and
start talking privatly again rather than ruin a mutual relationship for the
sake of misguided pride.
me
 
Were posts made to this thread today and subsequently cancelled?

I'm just trying to read the thread without missing anything, and the
structure of the thread has become slightly screwy.
 
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