Anything you can spray on a "normal" cd to allow inkjet printing?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Doc
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Haven't you seen the Mythbusters episode in which they
spin CDs on a high-speed drill? You have to reach thousands of
RPMs before a
normal (uncracked) disk breaks
Click to expand...

the speeds are as follows IIRC
1x = 500rpm
52x = 27,500rpm

DVD = 1658rpm
16X DVD = 26,528 rpm

On the issue of "normal" disc, you would be correct. Normal silkscreen
and graphics while they would throw the disc off balance to a degree
isn't enough to really do much in the way of harm given the fact that
the disc is held in place by a shaft and a magnetic clamp in most
cases. Also, CD-audio is 1x...DVD standard speeds are in the low
thousands range. It's the ROM speeds that are the big issue... but
even DVD speeds i've had the press on labels be rejected.... and flew
out the front at a speed of +150mph, a relativly low speed in terms of
-ROM. Application of paint I'll agree... while it would have an affect
on the balance at normal media playing speeds it won't have much of an
affect... but do keep in mind that 16x DVD and 52x CD are in the speed
range that mythbusters were talking about where one needs to think
about.

But I certainly saw the mythbuster episode... but I actually undersood
it and the relative speeds respecive devices play them at. Their tests
were crude but effective. I for example can't mount a CD on my angle
grnder which is rated at 15,000 RPM without the disc shattering but
this is due to the fact that it's hard for me to mount those things
without being off axis on such a device. CD/DVD have the benifit of
being tapered and machined properly to an exact specification that a
hell of alot closer than I can achive with a 3/8 inch spanner.

Oh also, the reccomendation for spinning a disc to achieve a more even
coat is reasonably sound, but keep in mind that a parabolic shape is
inevitable, not enviable. Thin coats would help prevent outward
sagging.
 
Looking back at the posts so far in this thread, it looks like nobody
has asked the obvious question: "Why would you want to do that?"
Printable discs seem to be priced relatively close to conventional ones,
plus the effort and expense of coating the conventional ones would drive
me up the wall. Note" there may have been other posts asking this
question, but I have Psycho King and a few others in my killfile.
Allen
 
Allen said:
Looking back at the posts so far in this thread, it looks like nobody
has asked the obvious question: "Why would you want to do that?"
Click to expand...

Because some people would just rather modify what they have than buy
what they need. It's a disease.
 
Allen said:
Looking back at the posts so far in this thread, it looks like nobody
has asked the obvious question: "Why would you want to do that?"
Click to expand...

A combination of curiosity and utility. I already have a big stack of
$14/100 DVD's. As it so happens, I just scored a great deal on the demo
model of an inkjet printer that has CD/DVD printing capability at Circuit
City.

So, I wonder if there's a way to utilize the DVD's I already have without
having to reinvest in the much more expensive printables. Maybe someday
they'll be having $14/100 deals on them, but I haven't seen it yet.
Introducing a $1.50 can of spray paint into the equation so far seems to
provide a viable solution.

Here's another angle. I find that even the printables have the problem that
if moisture contacts the water-soluble inkjet print, it smears. So, after
printing on the disc, hitting it with another couple of mist coats of clear
spray paint seems to make it far more waterproof. Looking at the graphics
applied to some commercial DVD's, I doubt the amount of material I'm
applying is any more.
 
The mass of the paint is so small...

Haven't you seen the Mythbusters episode in which they spin CDs on a
high-speed drill? You have to reach thousands of RPMs before a normal
(uncracked) disk breaks.
Click to expand...

I understand that disks can reach a speed of 27 500 rpm in a 52x drive.

--
Regards,
Nicolaas.


.... Ever stop to think ... and forget to start again?
 
Looking back at the posts so far in this thread, it looks like nobody
has asked the obvious question: "Why would you want to do that?"
Printable discs seem to be priced relatively close to conventional ones,
plus the effort and expense of coating the conventional ones would drive
me up the wall.
Click to expand...

Well.. I just went shopping for printable CDs... $20ish for a 50 pack
of Verbatium silvers and $10 for a 30 pack of the compusa brand... so
while non-printable would be a better deal without a doubt, and more
options... this is reasonable. It's shopping for printable DVD+/-Rs
that the price hike is terribly high localy at least for me... we are
talking on average 90+cents/disc vs mailorder of 25 to 50 cents/disc.
Ridata 16x or fuji 8x 40cents/per. So while I'll agree the mail order
price is similar... the local price is not.

But to answer your question... it wasn't so much about the price per
disc but rather, at least for me... it was the simple fact that I
bought a huge load when they were on sale at 10cents/per... brandnames
too... before I had a cd printer. While with the Epson I could "get
away" with printing on non-printables the Canon I could not. My
resolution was to do a batch in triplicate and give away discs to
friends done in a sharpy... problem solved. So your point is valid...
and I personaly agreee with you though I'm most empathic to those who
also have a bucket load of non-printables and would prefer to find a
means of using them vs a sharpy.
 
Allen said:
Looking back at the posts so far in this thread, it looks like nobody
has asked the obvious question: "Why would you want to do that?"
Printable discs seem to be priced relatively close to conventional ones,
plus the effort and expense of coating the conventional ones would drive
me up the wall. Note" there may have been other posts asking this
question, but I have Psycho King and a few others in my killfile.
Allen
Click to expand...
Regardless of the reason for asking, it's worth answering.
Unfortunately, my news server drops many posts; even more unfortunately,
not the ones I would like to lose. As a result, I'm replying to a reply.

As has been pointed out, the danger is that the material or its solvent
will penetrate the acrylic lacquer if that's all that protects the
metallic layer. If there is a printed surface or if you're certain that
there is an overcoating, then the odds are that the spray will be safe.
Otherwise, whatever the matte spray puts on can be expected to use a
solvent which is likely to destroy the disc over time.

Note that penetration can take months or years judging from similar
failures with solvent-based inks and some pigments.

Mike
 
Mike Richter said:
Allen wrote:
Click to expand...
As has been pointed out, the danger is that the material or its solvent
will penetrate the acrylic lacquer if that's all that protects the
metallic layer. If there is a printed surface or if you're certain that
there is an overcoating, then the odds are that the spray will be safe.
Otherwise, whatever the matte spray puts on can be expected to use a
solvent which is likely to destroy the disc over time.

Note that penetration can take months or years judging from similar
failures with solvent-based inks and some pigments.
Click to expand...

I was under the imression that with spray paint, the solvents are merely a
carrier for the solids and evaporate, leaving the solids behind.
 
I was under the imression that with spray paint, the solvents are merely a
carrier for the solids and evaporate, leaving the solids behind.
Click to expand...

On the most basic level... that's true. Keep in mind too that the
solids are in a liquid state designed to adhear to materials... metal
plastics wood whatever. And the solids them selves may be a form of an
epoxy that uses oxygen as a catalist not to speak of acryloyl
chloride... which if we are talking aluminium there is much in the way
of bother and effort giving it that uniform look etching away the old
oxide layer to permit the growth of a new uniform oxide layer. Not to
speak of self etching primers which contain N-acryloyl aspartic acid or
phosphoric acid... which as you might know is not the sort of stuff you
would dare use on aluminium..... that calls for hydrocholoric and even
then i'm not sure you'd be wanting to strip off the O2 layer from the
label side. Keep in mind this really isn't my field but even I can see
there are some issues one has to watch out for. Even if we were just
talking lacquer or shallac even then we are dealing with solvents along
the lines of naphtha, xylene, toluene, and ketones, and acetone.
Shallac also various alcohols can be used which are not likely to
affect the CD... but I couldn't tell you on acetone, naphtha or xylene.
Next time I pick some up i'll be sure to see if they melt a CD.
 
Don't forget 'printable' disks have a formulated coating that is designed to
be printed on by a printer. It is unlikely you would get the same effect on
yours, not to say lower quality. The heat produced in a DVD/cd player may
also cause bubbling and the coating to rise and flake off.
 
zakezuke said:
the speeds are as follows IIRC
1x = 500rpm
52x = 27,500rpm

DVD = 1658rpm
16X DVD = 26,528 rpm

On the issue of "normal" disc, you would be correct. Normal silkscreen
and graphics while they would throw the disc off balance to a degree
isn't enough to really do much in the way of harm given the fact that
the disc is held in place by a shaft and a magnetic clamp in most
cases. Also, CD-audio is 1x...DVD standard speeds are in the low
thousands range. It's the ROM speeds that are the big issue... but
even DVD speeds i've had the press on labels be rejected.... and flew
out the front at a speed of +150mph, a relativly low speed in terms of
-ROM. Application of paint I'll agree... while it would have an affect
on the balance at normal media playing speeds it won't have much of an
affect... but do keep in mind that 16x DVD and 52x CD are in the speed
range that mythbusters were talking about where one needs to think
about.

But I certainly saw the mythbuster episode... but I actually undersood
it and the relative speeds respecive devices play them at. Their tests
were crude but effective. I for example can't mount a CD on my angle
grnder which is rated at 15,000 RPM without the disc shattering but
this is due to the fact that it's hard for me to mount those things
without being off axis on such a device. CD/DVD have the benifit of
being tapered and machined properly to an exact specification that a
hell of alot closer than I can achive with a 3/8 inch spanner.

Oh also, the reccomendation for spinning a disc to achieve a more even
coat is reasonably sound, but keep in mind that a parabolic shape is
inevitable, not enviable. Thin coats would help prevent outward
sagging.
Click to expand...
I think there is a misunderstanding about the
spindle speeds of CD and DVD players. There are
all sorts of sites and nonsense about spinning
disks at high speed to see how high one can go
before they break. I suggest than anyone that
wants the fact look at what the manufactures of CD
ROM drives say.

Teac shows that their spindle speeds do not exceed
much over 9,000 rpm no matter what the reading
speed rating is.

Liteon has a lot more information and states
flatly that spindle motors cannot sustain a speed
in excess of 10,000 rpm. At higher read rates the
spindle speed is held at a constant 10,000 rpm.
The higher ratings are not achieved by means other
than increasing the rpm. BUT, Liteon indicates
that CD breakage is a fact although a new problem.
They suggest that you use reputable brands
although some of those disks have flaws and break.

Summary your CD's never achieve speeds over 10,000
rpm in your CD ROM machines. They can break at
that speed.
 
Doc said:
But I can't imagine why it would. It's paint, as such it sticks like...um,
paint.
Click to expand...

I believe CD are made from Polycarbonate. The model car racing boys use
special paint designed for their polycarbonate (Lexan) car bodies because
many other paints soften the surface or just don't stick very well....

http://www.ifi.unicamp.br/~epiovani/lexan.htm
"Just be certain to use Lexan paint. Avoid automotive paints and other harsh
lacquers. These paints cause melting or cracking of the Lexan."

http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/forum/messages/3/2025.html?1076464824
"Most paints will not adhere to polycarbonate,it simply flakes off after
some time, to do polycarbonate you will need a special paint and thinner. My
advise is to look for polycarbonate paints in your local scale models or RC
hobby shop. Tamiya makes a good range of colors. You can choose to buy small
100ml aerosol cans (PSxx) or in small bottles (PCxx) if you wish to try your
hand at air brushing and marker pens (PMxx) "
 
I agree, but the problems I indicated remain.

The overspray could just cause mis-reads, rather than mis-writes, and if
the solvents were going to damage the dye or reflective layer that could
still happen after writing.

Art
 
I've been studying some DVD-R, DVD+R and DVD-RW and all of them appear
to be laminated, unlike CDs. My CD-R,RW have all the clear plastic disc
on one surface, with the dye and reflective and lacquer surface on the
other surface. The DVDs seem to be laminated, with the dye and
reflective surface in the center of the disk, protected on both sides
with equal amounts of clear plastic. Obviously one side has a
manufacturer's label printed/screened on it as well.

So, this is interesting for two reasons. 1) It means that the
vulnerable reflective and dye surfaces are protected well on both sides,
so the solvent may be less of an issue, and secondly, it makes me wonder
how they can manage to sell these disks for about $.25 CAN each when the
process is so involved. Getting that dye and reflective layer to
laminate perfectly without any defects, bubbles or striations must be
some trick. I also noticed they seem to use a clear lacquer or coating
on the edge of the disk in most cases, to further seal the edge, or
maybe this is just excess adhesive coming out when they bond the two
layers together.

Either way, we live in amazing times to think such a thing could be so
precisely produced and only cost 25 cents CAN including all profits and
shipping from around the world!

Art
 
Doc said:
So, I wonder if there's a way to utilize the DVD's I already have without
having to reinvest in the much more expensive printables. Maybe someday
they'll be having $14/100 deals on them, but I haven't seen it yet.
Introducing a $1.50 can of spray paint into the equation so far seems to
provide a viable solution.
Click to expand...

So have you answered your own question yet? When you feel that you have
a workable solution, why not post a summary message explaining what you
found, how good your results are, what failures you encountered, and so
on. I'm sure there's a way to make your own printable disks at home.
While it's not something that a lot of others will do, it would be
interesting to know that it's been studied out thoroughly with actual
trials rather than hashing over ideas on a newsgroup.

That's how Usenet used to work.
 
the speeds are as follows IIRC
1x = 500rpm
52x = 27,500rpm
Click to expand...

Actully, 52X would (probably) apply only to the outer edges of the disk --
more like 15,000 rpm. But that's still awfully fast.
 
Summary: your CDs never achieve speeds over 10,000
rpm in your CD ROM machines. They can break at that
speed.
Click to expand...

And they don't break because they simply fall to pieces. Rather, the disk
develops a standing-wave warp, the stress of which cracks it.
 
the speeds are as follows IIRC
Actully, 52X would (probably) apply only to the outer edges of the disk --
more like 15,000 rpm. But that's still awfully fast.
Click to expand...

Someone else sugested that 10,000 is the max according to Teac which
i'll have to check with those guys. I freely admit to pulling numbers
off the web, numbers to my credit did at the very least add up. I'll
have to check up on that. And yes, while RPM is a constent thoughout
the disc... I know that my burner records 1/2 at 4x and the other at
8x.
 
Doc said:
I was under the imression that with spray paint, the solvents are merely a
carrier for the solids and evaporate, leaving the solids behind.
Click to expand...

Of course - but a solvent for the matte agent is probably a solvent for
the acrylic. While it should evaporate quickly, that does not mean
instantly or completely.

Mike
 
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