why only 1 IDE on new motherboards?

[DonC]

Well, good---and just how many IDE devices can you run? Two optical
drives and an IDE drive?

Four -- same as my previous MB which had no SATA ports. I ran 2 IDE drives
and 2 optical drives. With my new SATA/PATA MB I'm running the same 2
optical drives, 2 SATA (System and Data) and 1 IDE (my old System drive).

You seem to be intentionally missing the point.

Would you like to elaborate? I'm simply saying that to some people a PATA
drive might not be considered adequate --- per their standards.

 

[DonC]

FFS...did you read a single thing about what I wrote or are you
incapable of understanding it?

Because the newer drive is faster but it doesn't mean that if there
were a PATA version of it that the SATA would be quicker - the whole
****ing point of my post.

My, my! Loosing control -- are we?

The maximum PATA bus speed is 133MBytes/sec. An SATA is capable of
300MBytes/sec.

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]>

While that's true, at this point it's way premature to be forcing people
to SATA. The installed base of IDE devices is huge, and still many
orders of magnitude greater than SATA.

While true, they are obviously more interested in pursuing the market of
people who buy modern equipment.

There are absolutely no native PATA drives available for purchase
anymore, the best you can find is a SATA drive with an onboard SATA/PATA
conversion chip and a PATA interface.

It's the same stupid "logic" that is causing motherboard manufacturers
to put a grand total of two (and in some cases, ONE) standard PCI
slot on their boards. Utterly useless for everyone I know, but some
people must be buying them.

I have more PCI slots, but I don't use any of them. I took a rough poll
amongst my friends and family when I saw your post, I found one capture
card, and one modem, and that's it -- Beyond that, I can't find anyone
that uses a PCI card for any function that isn't already included on my
motherboard anyway.

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]>

SATA,

Seagate's latest 7200.11 drives easily blow past the fastest PATA
speeds, justifying the new interface.

Sure, they could have stuck with PATA and just kept bumping up the
speed, but we were reaching signal interference limits with PATA
architecture, so SATA was the correct choice.

PCI-E,

Thank $DIETY that AGP is gone, dead and buried. Sure, it might have
been possible to engineer another AGP slot into a modern CPU, but the
architecture just wasn't made for it, and PCI is already far too slow
for modern peripherals, so we needed something faster anyway, why not
make one unified bus?

DDR2,

This one, I don't disagree with. On the other hand, with RAM sizes
increasing so rapidly, I'm not sure I'd have much use for 128MB DDR gear
anyway.

and on and on,

Such as?

none
of which were (or are) necessary for doing the things the vast
majority of us do with computers.

The majority is debatable. However, it's simply more cost effective to
standardize on a interfaces and components aimed at higher end machines
and insert slower components then to maintain two entirely independent
architectures in *everything*

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]> "DonC"

Disk drive costs are at a historic low on a $/GB basis.

At the wholesale level, SATA drives are cheaper by $5-$10 due to the
minor cost of the SATA-PATA converter chip bottlenecking your nice SATA
drives that happen to have a PATA interface on 'em.

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]> Conor

Like AGP, for the most part, the performance increases of SATA over
PATA are negligble if any at all on a like for like basis.

That simply isn't the case if you have a modern drive (try a Seagate
7200.11 750GB -- Yes, the size is important, higher density results in a
faster drive under some circumstances) with NCQ in full SATA-II+AHCI
mode, you'll blow past ATA's theoretical limits, not that you'll ever
see ATA's theoretical limits in practice.

 

[Conor]

My, my! Loosing control -- are we?

No, just sick of conversing with stupid people.

The maximum PATA bus speed is 133MBytes/sec. An SATA is capable of
300MBytes/sec.

Excellent. You've managed to read the SATA specs for SATA2. The
interface is capable of that but no drives are anywhere near half of
that. Now show me a real world Windows/Linux/OS X installation where
that speed is reached.

Here's a list which includes WD Raptors and the latest and fastest
drives available.

Which one of these drives manages a read speed more than 133MB/s?
http://www23.tomshardware.com/storage.html?modelx=33&model1=117&model2=
676&chart=33

Which one of these drives manages a write speed more than 133MB/s?
http://www23.tomshardware.com/storage.html?modelx=33&model1=117&model2=
676&chart=36

The answer is non. The closest barely gets within 16MB/s. Thankyou for
confirming you've bought into the marketing speil hook, line and
sinker.

 

[Conor]

In message <[email protected]> Conor


That simply isn't the case if you have a modern drive (try a Seagate
7200.11 750GB -- Yes, the size is important, higher density results in a
faster drive under some circumstances) with NCQ in full SATA-II+AHCI
mode, you'll blow past ATA's theoretical limits, not that you'll ever
see ATA's theoretical limits in practice.

FFS...which part of like for like are you lot too thick to understand?
Take that drive, shove a PATA interface on it and you'd not notice the
speed difference.

Which one of these drives manages to max out the PATA IDE interface max
data rate of 133MB/s?

Oh, and there's faster drives than the seagate you mentioned...

http://www23.tomshardware.com/storage.html?modelx=33&model1=117&model2=
676&chart=33

 

[OhioGuy]

Can't you install an ide contoller card, like in a pci >slot, and use

more ide-hardware? Seems it would be >lots cheaper than buying new, sata
drives

I suppose, but there are a few problems with this, too:

1) I'd be paying $15 or $20 for a PCI IDE controller
card, just to save the mboard manufacturer 80c
in manufacturing costs. I don't want to encourage
that

2) I already have a PCI modem and PCI TV Tuner card.
Most new mboards only seem to have 2 PCI slots
available. Where does that leave me? Even if I
buy this add in card, I then have to do without
Internet or TV. That's a lousy choice to have to
make. If I want a third PCI slot on my board, it
looks like I get to pay an extra $20 or so.

That's why I'm complaining.

 

[OhioGuy]

You can still buy boards that will support 4 PATA >devices -- as I did.

Please show me an AM2+ motherboard that supports 4 IDE devices, and has at
least 3 PCI slots. I'm guessing if it even exists, it is going to cost well
over $100.

Maybe I'm too used to having everything integrated these days, but I'm
annoyed as heck when I have to pay an extra 20 bucks for an IDE controller,
and then another 20 bucks for a mboard with at least 3 PCI slots. $40 to
$60 is about what I'm used to paying for the entire motherboard these days.
(I wait for specials, rebates, etc.)

Of course, I suppose if I put it in perspective, it wasn't that long ago
when these things weren't integrated:

video card - about $50 to $70
sound card - about $50
LAN card - ~ $25
IDE controller card - $25

So in the "old days", I guess I could have spent $150 just on those add-in
cards.

Now I can get an Asus M3A78 or M3N78 motherboard for about $110 total,
with integrated everything. (including HD video out) In a way, it's kind of
like getting the motherboard free.

 

[OhioGuy]

why in the world would any knowledgeable upgrader >want to stick with PATA

drives?.

Hmm, let's see:

1) because we have loads of IDE cables laying around

2) because you can hook 2 drives up to each IDE cable

3) because if you have a full size tower, many of the shorty SATA cables
they ship with a mboard don't
even reach

4) and Primarily, there have been some really good deals on brand new
IDE/PATA drives lately. I'm talking about prices 35% cheaper than SATA for
Seagate drives with 5 year warranty. Why wouldn't I go for that?

If you hang out on fatwallet.com or slickdeals.com, you'll see these type
of deals pop up relatively often. It is just annoying to find out that a
motherboard upgrade would, in most cases, make it impossible for me to use
all of the new drives without spending an extra $40 or so. ($20 for a board
with 3+ PCI slots, and $20 for a PCI IDE controller card) All of that just
so the mboard manufacturer can save $1 on their chipset and manufacturing
cost.

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]> Conor

FFS...which part of like for like are you lot too thick to understand?
Take that drive, shove a PATA interface on it and you'd not notice the
speed difference.

Which one of these drives manages to max out the PATA IDE interface max
data rate of 133MB/s?

Any and all of the 7200.11 drives burst well above 133MB/s. Show me a
single PATA interface that can actually sustain that speed in the real
world.

The sustained read and write rates are below the 133MB/s theoretical
limit, but in the real world most reads and writes are small bursts.

Now add in NCQ/TCQ support, hot swapping, and other goodies the SATA
interface brings.

 

[DonC]

Hmm, let's see:

1) because we have loads of IDE cables laying around

That's a blessing? ; ) They're clogging up my cable box! Now I've got an
excess of SATA cables started. Two came with my MB, one with each SATA
drive and.... I can't figure out where teh other two came from. Oh well,
they're easier to store.

2) because you can hook 2 drives up to each IDE cable

Not necesaarily an advantage when you can't always get the cables to reach.
Also the 2" wide ribbon does a great of job clogging the tower and blocking
air flow.

3) because if you have a full size tower, many of the shorty SATA cables
they ship with a mboard don't even reach

Never ran into that problem with my 19" high tower. All my SATA cables are
18" long and the ports are located 3" from the bottom of the case.

4) and Primarily, there have been some really good deals on brand new
IDE/PATA drives lately. I'm talking about prices 35% cheaper than SATA
for Seagate drives with 5 year warranty. Why wouldn't I go for that?

Sounds like a clearance sale! Also sounds like a PATA fire-sale! They're
reaching the end of their production life. Go for it!!!

If you hang out on fatwallet.com or slickdeals.com, you'll see these type
of deals pop up relatively often. It is just annoying to find out that a
motherboard upgrade would, in most cases, make it impossible for me to use
all of the new drives without spending an extra $40 or so. ($20 for a
board with 3+ PCI slots, and $20 for a PCI IDE controller card) All of
that just so the mboard manufacturer can save $1 on their chipset and
manufacturing cost.

Yea, that's what I ran into. DDR2 cheaper than DDR, SATA faster than PATA,
new cpus and MBs,requiring DDR2. Arrrgh...!
Finally decided to bite the bullet -- it was becoming obvious that I'd have
to sooner or later. No regrets; my new setup is significantly snappier.

It's just sad that a certain person on this user group (NOT you : )
sincerely believes than anybody NOT doing it his way is a stupid lemming ; )
Quite a character -- a sad character.

 

[Guest]

Now add in NCQ/TCQ support, hot swapping, and other goodies the SATA
interface brings.

SATA doesn't bring any feature that hasn't existed for 20+ years in
the SCSI domain, and now exists in far superior implementation in
the SAS domain.

Go look at any enterprise storage system and you won't see SATA.
Why is that?

 

[DonC]

SATA doesn't bring any feature that hasn't existed for 20+ years in
the SCSI domain, and now exists in far superior implementation in
the SAS domain.

SATA brings one very important feature that SAS and SCSI or SCSI serial
can't match: low price.

A quick search by this "#@&!@ stupid lemming" uncovered the following
prices:

SAS 36GB $159 to $215, 73GB $199 to $475 147GB $290

SCSI 73GB 140, 147GB $230, 300GB $425

SCSI- "serial attached" 36GB $90 to $170 75GB $170

Now I realize that the performance of many of the above exceed that of my
SATAs,
but my 3.0Gb/s SATAs, cost me: 80GB $43, 120GB $53, 250GB $$70 shipped.

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]>

SATA doesn't bring any feature that hasn't existed for 20+ years in
the SCSI domain, and now exists in far superior implementation in
the SAS domain.

Correct. Now shop by price and you'll understand why SATA is the
primary choice for home users.

Performance is far closer to SCSI/SAS implementations, price is actually
under that of modern PATA drives. That's called a win-win.

Go look at any enterprise storage system and you won't see SATA.
Why is that?

Go look at any average user's home PC and you won't see SCSI/SAS. Why
is that?

 

[sbb78247]

I suppose, but there are a few problems with this, too:

1) I'd be paying $15 or $20 for a PCI IDE controller
card, just to save the mboard manufacturer 80c
in manufacturing costs. I don't want to encourage
that

2) I already have a PCI modem and PCI TV Tuner card.
Most new mboards only seem to have 2 PCI slots
available. Where does that leave me? Even if I
buy this add in card, I then have to do without
Internet or TV. That's a lousy choice to have to
make. If I want a third PCI slot on my board, it
looks like I get to pay an extra $20 or so.

That's why I'm complaining.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128084

That might solve your pci dilema - it has 5 slots

--
sbb78247

resident redneck alt.os.windows-xp

you aint frum 'round here are ya boy!

 

[Fred]

I haven't had a floppy drive on any of my systems for 3 years now,
and I'm wondering why in the world motherboard manufacturers are
leaving the floppy drive interface on the boards, but taking off the
second IDE controller?

I think they are following the lead of the chipset manufacturers.
For example the x48 chipset has fast dual video channels lots of pcie
channels SATA and usb ports.
If the board manufacturers think it necessary to add extra IDE on board they
do it by adding an extra controller.
That is something Asrock tend to do but I don't think they sell the full
range in the US.

When upgrading, I find myself with a couple of optical drives, and a
couple of hard drives, all of which are IDE/PATA. I couldn't care
less whether there is a floppy controller on the board, but I truly
miss having the second IDE controller.

Well you would need to limit yourself on board choice then.
Something with a VIA chipset maybe.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131024R

The fact that it is lacking essentially forces me to buy SATA drives
that I don't really need.

So why are they doing this?

The SATA specification is scaleable while PATA had reached the end of the
line.
BTW Asrock seem to be catering to the frugal upgraders but for some reason
don't offer their full range to the US.

 

[Bill]

I suppose, but there are a few problems with this, too:

1) I'd be paying $15 or $20 for a PCI IDE controller
card, just to save the mboard manufacturer 80c
in manufacturing costs.

Do you have a cite for that 80c cost? Or did you just make it up
to support your argument?

I don't want to encourage
that

Fair enough.

2) I already have a PCI modem and PCI TV Tuner card.
Most new mboards only seem to have 2 PCI slots
available. Where does that leave me?

Installing something like this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815158082

Even if I
buy this add in card, I then have to do without
Internet or TV.

No you don't, see above

That's a lousy choice to have to
make. If I want a third PCI slot on my board, it
looks like I get to pay an extra $20 or so.

Life's a bitch.

That's why I'm complaining.

Well complain away, but do consider that the manufacturers don't
care, and aren't listening to you, especially if you're only
venting here on Usenet, which they don't read.

Or did you take the time time write to the manufacturers.

No doubt the manufacturers cost/profit analyses have your
particular needs for a motherboard so far down on the curve as to
be not worth their time to fulfill.

Bill

 

[sbb78247]

Do you have a cite for that 80c cost? Or did you just make it up
to support your argument?


Fair enough.


Installing something like this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815158082

farkin cool. old skool meets the new century

No you don't, see above


Life's a bitch.

then you marry one? BWWWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
(sorry ladies, to tempting)

Well complain away, but do consider that the manufacturers don't
care, and aren't listening to you, especially if you're only
venting here on Usenet, which they don't read.

Or did you take the time time write to the manufacturers.

No doubt the manufacturers cost/profit analyses have your
particular needs for a motherboard so far down on the curve as to
be not worth their time to fulfill.

Bill

no kiddin bill.

--

sbb78247

resident redneck alt.os.windows-xp
alt.os.windows-vista

someone pass the mashed potatoes!