Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?

[Mark M]

Of which were cross posted, and I can't see..

So it was YOU who missed what was "obvious" to all but you.

 

[Richard Ragon]

So it was YOU who missed what was "obvious" to all but you.

So... if I don't subscribe to every one of the news forums that this was
posted too.. I'm missing the obvious?

-Richard

 

[Bob Niland]

My latest Dell has 6 USB 2.0 ports. But no 1394!
I'd prefer to have 4 USBs and 2 FWs instead.

Could someone explain why this is so?
I am sure there are good reasons behind all this.

No, there are just "reasons".

Back when it had the chance to make FW the
leading serial PnP port, Apple screwed it
up by charging a royalty of $1 per port.
$2 per machine was easily enough to prevent
adoption.

That made also it real easy for Intel to
push USB instead.

Apple now charges less, I hear, but it still
isn't royalty-free, and now that USB 2.0 is
out, FW has lost the commanding performance
lead that it had.

FW card tip:

If you get a PCI FW card, make sure it has
pins for an internal molex drive power connector.

If it doesn't, it cannot provide to all bus ports
the "full" power that devices are allowed to
draw (they won't get enumerated if they try).
PCI slots only provide 25W, and a full-power
FW port may provide between 12 and 18W (per port).

Even if you don't have a single device requiring
more than 0.5A, you may have multiple devices
that exceed what a PCI card can deliver without
outside power.

--
Regards, PO Box 248
Bob Niland Enterprise
mailto:[email protected] Kansas USA
which, due to spam, is: 67441-0248
email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
http://www.access-one.com/rjn

Unless otherwise specifically stated, expressing
personal opinions and NOT speaking for any
employer, client or Internet Service Provider.

 

[Mark M]

So... if I don't subscribe to every one of the news forums that this was
posted too.. I'm missing the obvious?

Didn't you mean that you've filtered cross-posted messages?
If not, then I don't know what prevented seeing it.
No matter--just curious.

 

[Dave Oddie]

My latest Dell has 6 USB 2.0 ports. But no 1394!
I'd prefer to have 4 USBs and 2 FWs instead.

I don't often do this BUT I flicked over to the QVC shopping channell on UK
freeview digital TV the other night when they had a Dell program on selling a
specifc version of a Dell 4600 PC.

They were going on at how great it was that this thing had a 1394 port for use
with DV cams so I thought it ironic what I saw thus post.

Where was this port implemented? On the Creative Soundblaster Audoligy 2 sound
card that is where.

Moral? If you want 1394 out of the box with Dell buy one with the correct
creative sound card in place.

Note the QVC mob said the specific 4600 they were offering was not available
anywhere else but form them so don't slag me off if you can't configure a Dell
PC in this way at the Dell web site.

Dave

 

[Supreme Enchanter]

Using windows with a 3 or more firewire ports causes a lot of problems if
they are on PCI cards. I founds this out from maxtor with a external hard
drive. They referred me to a known bug in windows XP that screws up. They
sent me to the MS database and sure enough they talk about it. I yanked out
a firewire card and just left the firewire on the RT 2500 card and
everything worked fine.

 

[Bill Van Dyk]

There are comparatively few devices that utilize firewire over USB, and
since USB 2.0 is fully compatible with the zillions of existing USB 1.0
devices, it makes sense for all computers to come equipped with 2.0.

Thank you, Mr. Lemming.

 

[Jerry McG]

Thank you, Mr. Lemming.>

(LOL!)

I use FW and USB side by side on Wintel systems and must say FW is far more
relaible and much easier to use day in & day out. So much for the "march of
progress" where Billy and his merry band of men are concerned!

 

[Bill Van Dyk]

Right--

My biggest gripe is unfulfilled promises. USB was supposed to allow you to plug
in or unplug devices "on the fly".
But Windows has a hissy fit if you turn off your digital camera, for example,
even if you don't need it and aren't accessing it anymore. And USB doesn't
reach sustained speeds at the claimed performance levels. And it can and will
bring your entire system down with a crash. It is, in a word, pathetic.

Firewire is elegant and reliable. Plug in the camcorder, run Premiere, load the
data. When you're done, disconnect or shut off the camera.... and not a peep
from firewire.

It is actually quite remarkable that USB can't do that. It is beyond
incompetent. It's not only that they can't think of a solution, but that they
actively suck all the solutions everyone else is thinking of out of the room.

 

[Christopher X. Candreva]

: Firewire is elegant and reliable. Plug in the camcorder, run Premiere, load the
: data. When you're done, disconnect or shut off the camera.... and not a peep
: from firewire.

: It is actually quite remarkable that USB can't do that. It is beyond

But is that USB's problem, or the Windows implementation of it ? On my Linux
machine I plug/unplug my USB scanner and web cam with no ill effects.

 

[Charlie Dilks]

My biggest gripe is unfulfilled promises. USB was supposed to allow you to
plug in or unplug devices "on the fly".

That's how USB and firewire both work on my Mac.

 

[Enough]

But Windows has a hissy fit if you turn off your digital camera, for example,
even if you don't need it and aren't accessing it anymore.

Gee, works fine here. Oh, wait! I use a Mac!

 

[Supreme Enchanter]

You and 4 other people.

Gee, works fine here. Oh, wait! I use a Mac!

 

[Rick]

Gee, works fine here. Oh, wait! I use a Mac!

Hissy fit? Under Win2K I get a single warning if I don't stop
a USB device before turning it off or unplugging it, and no error
at all if I stop the device first. Smooth as silk.

Rick

 

[Nik Simpson]

That's how USB and firewire both work on my Mac.

Funnily enough it's how they work on my Windows XP box as well, I have a mix
of USB 1.1 (on the motherboard), USB 2.0 (on a Belkin PCI card) and Firewire
(on a Creative Audigy card) and none of them have ever given me a moments
probelm with plugging or unplugging devices. The list of devices includes,
slide scanner, two different mice, two different memory sticks, Creative ZEN
jukebox, 120GB hard drive etc.

 

[David McCall]

I plug and unplug many of my USB-2 devices at will with XP. no problems,
except hard drives. Drives can be set up to not require being stopped in
software before disconnecting, but even if they are set up normally you
just get an error (no hissy-fit here .

To install a USB-2 drive just plug it in. Not too hard. To uninstall drives on the fly,
you may need to "stop" them in software (depending on your set up).

I use a USB-2 external drive enclosure with a removable tray. To change drives
I "stop" them down in software, then turn off the power on the external case,
swap drives, and turn the power back on. In a few seconds, there is a new
drive available on the system.

Other items like mice, scanners, printers, etc. are just a matter of pluging them in
or unpluging them. For the most part it is pretty easy on my systems. I've found
1394 OK for cameras, but wasn't totally happy with the firewire enclosure.

David

 

[Don Forsling]

Right--

My biggest gripe is unfulfilled promises. USB was supposed to allow you to plug
in or unplug devices "on the fly".

How odd. I have eight USB ports, both USB 1 and USB 2 implementation on my
PC, and I constantly 'plug in or unplug devices "on the fly'." Chances are
there's a problem with your computer and not a problem with the design of
the USB system. Countless thousands of "USB on PC" users plug in, unplug,
turn on, turn off, etc., on the fly with USB with perfect results. Alas, I
have no specific suggestions, but maybe somebody will.

 

[Paolo Pizzi]

I plug and unplug many of my USB-2 devices at will with XP. no
problems, except hard drives. Drives can be set up to not require
being stopped in software before disconnecting

(...)

I have no less than 15 devices on my USB 2.0 port (FB scanner,
3x printers, 2x HD, memory card reader, graphic tablet, Dazzle
A/D converter, mouse, flightsim yoke, flightsim throttle, flightsim
pedals, 2x hubs) and an IEEE 1394 card to handle digital video
transfers and my Nikon 4000 ED film scanner. I plug and unplug
at will (except for the disks, for the reason David explained.)
Everything works smoothly under XP.

Never had such a rock-solid OS, even when I used a Mac.

 

[Kevin]

That's how USB and firewire both work on my Mac.

My Mac will complain if I unplug a USB keydrive before ejecting the volume.
("Device Removal: The device you removed was not properly put away..")

My Windows 2000 box also complains if I do not "Stop Device" before
unplugging.

Windows XP does not complain at all.

 

[Guest]

True many complaints in this tread about USB are because of the poor
implementation of the USB specs by M$. Try another OS and I sure you
will love USB.

USB works just fine, and so does firewire under Linux. Thank you very
much. BSD has excellent USB support also.

Later

Christopher> In rec.video.desktop Bill Van Dyk
Christopher> elegant and reliable. Plug in the camcorder, run
Christopher> Premiere, load the : data. When you're done, disconnect
Christopher> or shut off the camera.... and not a peep : from
Christopher> firewire.

Christopher> : It is actually quite remarkable that USB can't do
Christopher> that. It is beyond

Christopher> But is that USB's problem, or the Windows implementation
Christopher> of it ? On my Linux machine I plug/unplug my USB scanner
Christopher> and web cam with no ill effects.

Christopher> --
Christopher> ==========================================================
Christopher> Chris Candreva -- (e-mail address removed) -- (914) 967-7816
Christopher> WestNet Internet Services of Westchester
Christopher> http://www.westnet.com/