What is the best HDD in terms of Reliability/cost?

Rod Speed · Jul 6, 2005

Ron Reaugh said:
HUH?

Even you should be able to bullshit your way out of
your predicament better than that pathetic effort.

Obviously not.

Rod Speed · Jul 6, 2005

Ron Reaugh said:
Nope.

HDs are FAST!

Which is why I use them for backup of large volumes of stuff.

Tapes are dog slow.

Werent even being discussed.

DVDs are medium but media swapping makes them slow too.

Not if the total of what you will slash your
wrists if you lose fits on a single DVD, ****wit.

And a hell of a lot faster to get into your pocket before leaving the house too.

Ron Reaugh · Jul 6, 2005

And a hell of a lot faster to get into your pocket before leaving the
house too.

Speedo keeps his DVDs in his front pockets I guess.

Rod Speed · Jul 6, 2005

Some terminal ****wit that's so stupid that it never even noticed
the problem with the IBM 75GXPs, or anything else at all either,
Ron Reaugh <[email protected]> desperately
attempted to bullshit its way out of its predicament in message
and fooled absolutely no one at all, as always.

J. Clarke · Jul 6, 2005

Joe said:
Well Seagate itself warranties its external USB drives for only 1 year -
so they obviously recognize that that is a more hostile environment and
are only willing to warranty the drive for a year. If all contemporary
hard drives lasted for >5 years it would be no problem for Seagate to
extend the warranty for their external USB drives to match that of their
internal drives. This differential application of warranty clearly
demonstrates that warranty length is tied to expected product life.

_All_ drives don't last 5 years. Most drives of any brand do. And you are
assuming that you know the reason for Seagate's policy on its external
drives. All you know with certainty is that Seagate decided for some
reason unknown to you that it was to their benefit to have a shorter
warranty on those models. It might very well be tied to sales volume
rather than return rates.

Nick · Jul 6, 2005

You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fellas ?

DVDs are still completely viable if say you have loads of pics.

Just write each new pic to multiple DVDs using different media for the
multiple copys and check that the media isnt going bad occasionally so
you can copy the still good copy again if some media does go bad over time.

That's true. But if, for example, you work on music or video, you
might find a DVD a bit short of space.

Only in a work situation, not in a domestic situation.

Sure !
But even in a domestic situation, if you waste a full sunday for 20$
saved, you might find you should have spend a bit more

Sure, but that isnt his situation.

Who said so ?

Nick

Rod Speed · Jul 7, 2005

That's true. But if, for example, you work on music
or video, you might find a DVD a bit short of space.

The OP doesnt.

Sure !
But even in a domestic situation, if you waste a full sunday
for 20$ saved, you might find you should have spend a bit more

Not when the risk of having all the PCs on the lan stolen or
consumed by a fire is so low. That sort of situation is rare
and you will have to spend a lot more time replacing the PCs
in the rare situation where it happens. The time to do a full
reinstall isnt likely to be worth spending much on to avoid.

And if you do care about the restore time, it makes a lot
more sense to include just the settings on the DVD than
it does to spend a lot more on duplicated external hard drives
and the effort required to swap those offsite at a high rate.

In my opinion it makes a lot more sense to just backup the
irreplaceable stuff offsite, using a single DVD, and to have
the other convenience backup on other drives on the lan by
choosing to buy bigger hard drives than you would otherwise
need, at a much lower $/GB than a pair of external hard
drives given the very low risk of having to need those.

Who said so ?

If that is his situation, he should have said so. He didnt.

And since he puts so much emphasis on cost, its unlikely.

Joe Doe · Jul 7, 2005

_All_ drives don't last 5 years. Most drives of any brand do. And you are
assuming that you know the reason for Seagate's policy on its external
drives. All you know with certainty is that Seagate decided for some
reason unknown to you that it was to their benefit to have a shorter
warranty on those models. It might very well be tied to sales volume
rather than return rates.

See:

http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20040803.html

Which shows that Seagates AFR is less than the industry average and the
marketing vs reliability isssue is covered in the body of the article.

Secondly wrt external drives having a shorter expected life is not
merely conjecture: operational conditions affecting drive reliability
are well modeled and temperature, shock etc. will adversely affect
product life.

See:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/storagereliability/

Also See:
http://www.thechannelinsider.com/article2/0,1759,1627552,00.asp

Which states :
For Seagate and other drive markers, the exception to the increased
warranty status will be external drives, which are subject to the jars
and jolts that drives protected by a PC chassis are not. Those drives
will still have a warranty period of one year.
And a Seagate representative states:

"That's more of a consumer appliance, where expectations are a little
different," Cousins (Seagate representative) said.

Roland

Ron Reaugh · Jul 7, 2005

Rod Speed said:
The OP doesnt.

Not when the risk of having all the PCs on the lan stolen or
consumed by a fire is so low.

Wacko, the risk of all those plus malware or external attack is HIGH RISK.

That sort of situation is rare
and you will have to spend a lot more time replacing the PCs
in the rare situation where it happens. The time to do a full
reinstall isnt likely to be worth spending much on to avoid.

Speedo wacko.

Ron Reaugh · Jul 7, 2005

So obviously you work for Seagate and cite all their industry articles. If
you filter out the Seagate marketspeak then mostly it says what I've already
posted in this thread. That includes nothing about Seagate being
superior/more reliable. Seagate HDs are not.

Rod Speed · Jul 7, 2005

Joe Doe said:
See:

http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20040803.html

Which shows that Seagates AFR is less than the industry average and the
marketing vs reliability isssue is covered in the body of the article.

Secondly wrt external drives having a shorter expected life is not
merely conjecture: operational conditions affecting drive reliability
are well modeled and temperature, shock etc. will adversely affect
product life.

See:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/storagereliability/

Also See:
http://www.thechannelinsider.com/article2/0,1759,1627552,00.asp

Which states :
For Seagate and other drive markers, the exception to the increased
warranty status will be external drives, which are subject to the jars
and jolts that drives protected by a PC chassis are not. Those drives
will still have a warranty period of one year.
And a Seagate representative states:

"That's more of a consumer appliance, where expectations
are a little different," Cousins (Seagate representative) said.

That last is the usual mindless suit bullshit.

Rod Speed · Jul 7, 2005

Wacko, the risk of all those plus malware or external attack is HIGH RISK.

****wit, pigs arse they are for anyone with a clue.

And the images on the other drives on the lan handle
that sort of problem fine anyway, at a MUCH lower cost
than a couple of external hard drives rotated out of the house.

Speedo wacko.

Reaugh ****wit.

J. Clarke · Jul 7, 2005

Joe said:
See:

http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20040803.html

Which shows that Seagates AFR is less than the industry average and the
marketing vs reliability isssue is covered in the body of the article.

I find myself wondering how "Warranty Week" obtains data on warranty
returns. I seriously doubt that the drive manufacturers give away that
information. However note that it's below 5% of revenue for _everybody_.

Secondly wrt external drives having a shorter expected life is not
merely conjecture: operational conditions affecting drive reliability
are well modeled and temperature, shock etc. will adversely affect
product life.

Can. Do they in the real world to any significant extent for drives in
external enclosures provided by the manufacturer? And do you have a
_reliable_ source for that information (not a magazine article but
statistical information from someone who has access to actual reliability
data for portable vs built-in drives)? And why would an external drive
have problems with shock, temperature, etc? Seems to me that with the
manufacturer providing both the drive and the enclosure they would have
better control of temperature than in a typical PC and given the shock
limits of contemporary drives it doesn't seem too difficult to devise an
enclosure that can keep the drives within those limits under all but the
most severe abuse. Certainly they can be as well protected from shock as
laptop drives.

See:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/storagereliability/

Also See:
http://www.thechannelinsider.com/article2/0,1759,1627552,00.asp

Which states :
For Seagate and other drive markers, the exception to the increased
warranty status will be external drives, which are subject to the jars
and jolts that drives protected by a PC chassis are not. Those drives
will still have a warranty period of one year.

And their source for this being the actual reason for Seagate's warranty
policy is?

And a Seagate representative states:

"That's more of a consumer appliance, where expectations are a little
different," Cousins (Seagate representative) said.

Note that word "expectations". In other words, nobody expects them to last
very long so a long warranty would not be a selling point.

Sorry, but opinions expressed by reporters who are not privy to the internal
affairs of the company are just that, opinions.

wqq · Jul 7, 2005

J. Clarke said:
Joe Doe wrote

I find myself wondering how "Warranty Week" obtains
data on warranty returns. I seriously doubt that the
drive manufacturers give away that information.

Unlikely that the numbers are pure fiction tho.

However note that it's below 5% of revenue for _everybody_.

Can. Do they in the real world to any significant extent for
drives in external enclosures provided by the manufacturer?

Unlikely that they dont with the warrantys they choose to offer.

And do you have a _reliable_ source for that
information (not a magazine article but statistical
information from someone who has access to
actual reliability data for portable vs built-in drives)?

And why would an external drive have
problems with shock, temperature, etc?

Because they are obviously more vulnerable with both.

Seems to me that with the manufacturer providing
both the drive and the enclosure they would have
better control of temperature than in a typical PC

Or even the hard drive manufacturer is stuck with the
basic physics and other fundamentals like the difficulty
of providing decent reliable tiny fans in that situation,
and the downsides of fanless systems as well.

and given the shock limits of contemporary drives it doesn't
seem too difficult to devise an enclosure that can keep the
drives within those limits under all but the most severe abuse.

Sure, but that has to cost more than with an internal drive.

Certainly they can be as well protected from shock as laptop drives.

Nope, the total weight is significantly lower and that has
an inevitable effect on the G forces the drive exeriences.

And their 3.5" external drives arent even designed for laptops either.

And their source for this being the actual
reason for Seagate's warranty policy is?

Note that word "expectations". In other words, nobody expects
them to last very long so a long warranty would not be a selling point.

That aint what he said.

Sorry, but opinions expressed by reporters who are not privy
to the internal affairs of the company are just that, opinions.

There was more than just reporter's opinion cited.

J. Clarke · Jul 7, 2005

wqq said:
Unlikely that the numbers are pure fiction tho.

Funny thing about statistics. If you aren't careful with your methodology
you can make them say just about anything.

Unlikely that they dont with the warrantys they choose to offer.

Only if we accept your contention that the durability of the product is the
only consideration in establishing the warranty period. So is it also your
contention that Hyundai makes the most reliable car on the road?

Because they are obviously more vulnerable with both.

Obvious to you maybe. Have you ever designed anything that was subjected to
shock and vibration?

Or even the hard drive manufacturer is stuck with the
basic physics and other fundamentals like the difficulty
of providing decent reliable tiny fans in that situation,
and the downsides of fanless systems as well.

How much fan do they need?

Sure, but that has to cost more than with an internal drive.

Where can one get an external drive for a price less than or equal to that
of an internal drive from the same vendor and having the same capacity?

Nope, the total weight is significantly lower and that has
an inevitable effect on the G forces the drive exeriences.

Care to explain the physics behind your reasoning?

And their 3.5" external drives arent even designed for laptops either.

So? That doesn't really have any relevance to the point being made. The
drive, in the enclosure, is a system. Or is it your contention that the
external drives are not intended to be external drives?

That aint what he said.

No, he said "expectations", he did not say anything about the actual
durability of the drive, so it's quite a jump from "expectations" to "We
shortened the warranty because the drives were less reliable".

There was more than just reporter's opinion cited.

There were no statistics provided by any drive manufacturer that I could
see, and the statistics that were provided were provided with no
explanation of the methodology, so in point of fact that _is_ what we had,
a reporter's opinion with some comments by representatives of the drive
manufacturer that weren't really on topic thrown in to give his opinion
verisimilitude.

wqq · Jul 7, 2005

Funny thing about statistics. If you aren't careful with your
methodology you can make them say just about anything.

Pity about the graph in that article.

Only if we accept your contention

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

that the durability of the product is the only
consideration in establishing the warranty period.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

So is it also your contention that Hyundai
makes the most reliable car on the road?

Nope.

Seagate is however not anything like the worst hard
drive manufacturer so they dont need to use that
approach to increase the volume of drives they sell.

And they clearly dont with their externals either.

Obvious to you maybe.

Obvious to anyone with a clue, which obviously counts you out.

Have you ever designed anything that
was subjected to shock and vibration?