Troll

[zakezuke]

it is ok that you do not care. i do

You care enough to quote everything to add a couple of lines in the
middle. You care enough to... and this is quoting you, go out of your
way to provoke others into responding to to your posts so people who
have kill filed you in the past can see your rantings. Your posts
serve one purpose, to harass or annoy others. This is one of the true
things you said in the past, it was true then, and it's true now.

But the thing is, you don't care who makes your ink, all "you" buy is
the stuff with Canon or HP on the label. They could change their
formula or manufacturer and never disclose it. You sir actually
"don't" care, you take it on faith. You have all this faith yet you
call people who use aftermarket ink part of some cult, some church?

I'm all for people who will actually point out the benifits of OEM so
others can make a rational choice, so please, for the love of g-d,
actually do it? Stop making up stuff like having a MBA from Stanford,
quoting the junk off the side of a Microsoft Visual Basic box and
claiming you design databases on the enterprise (beam me up scotty),
and for the love of pete stop harassing people who come to this group
asking for legit help from experenced users with their dang printers.

 

[Taliesyn]

it is ok that you do not care. i do

Thank you. If you care, then mind your own business and let every user -
of whatever ink they choose - decide for themselves and not
intentionally misguide their "thinking", which you have been doing.
You've intentionally tried (but failed) to tell me it's messy, a pain in
the ass, cloggy, fadey, runny, not worth it, need a heavy load to
succeed, and just about every thing under the sun you could dream of.
None of which have been proven to be true in the inks I use.

You've failed to convince me. So what's plan "B"?

-Taliesyn

 

[TJ]

your mother won't tell you where she got her recipe. oregano from an
unknown source will give you syphilis and cancer. Wilhelm said so. ...do
not make your own pizza. it will make your oven explode.

I was there when she developed the recipe, so I know where it came from
- but you don't because I'm not going to divulge that information. Same
thing with the oregano - I know the source, but you won't.

Sure sounds like an OEM, doesn't it?

TJ

 

[BD]

it is ok that you do not care. i do

If you care, you have a pretty crappy way of showing it.

Here's what I suggest, if you MUST continue to spew out the blather you
spew in spite of repeated requests to 'get a grip':

-Make a FAQ. What you have to say NEVER CHANGES, and I for one find it
of absolutely zero value to see the same statements interjected into
thread after thread, with no solicitation - and no verifiable
qualification.

-Call the FAQ something like "Issues with non-OEM ink". Include all the
points you INSIST on repeating time after time. Should be easy, because
you never really 'say' much of anything.

-Include links to the research you cite. It'd suck to be seen as
talking out of your arse.

-Post the FAQ once a week, if you must. That way, people who ARE
ACTUALLY INTERESTED can follow up, and people who are not (like me) can
easily ignore it.

And most important: Stop Interjecting Your Tired Old Tirades Into Every
Thread You Can Find. You certainly are entitled to your opinion, but
you are not necessarily entitled to jam that opinion down the throats
of people who are quite genuinely prepared to give non-OEM a chance -
like me, for example. I fully intend to find out for myself. I just
bought a new ip4000 and a used ip5000, and I don't need born-again
OEM-boy to show me the light.

If you were to make a regular FAQ posting, or some regular digest,
you'd find a lot less pissy people in the group.

Do you see where I'm coming from? Do you see that when what you have to
say NEVER CHANGES or evolves, that it becomes stagnant and useless? And
do you know how completely predictable you are at this point? You quite
honestly add ZERO value to the threads you post to, because you are not
reasonable.

Plus, the fact that you are such a lazy-ass that you can't put out the
tiny effort to use capital letters and punctuation is just annoying.
You don't give a shit about how you come across - that's all your posts
really say to me. And that makes the 'content' of your posts that much
more empty.

Your choice - though I guarantee that you will not succeed in
persuading the masses to your point of view. You're about as credible
to me as Jerry Falwell.

 

[Burt]

Plus, the fact that you are such a lazy-ass that you can't put out the
tiny effort to use capital letters and punctuation is just annoying.
You don't give a shit about how you come across - that's all your posts
really say to me. And that makes the 'content' of your posts that much
more empty.

BD - He actually does give a shit about how he comes across. His history of
posting on this NG for nearly two years makes it perfectly obvious that he
is, pure and simple, a shit disturber who has made it a point to taunt,
defame, spout obscenities and childish gibbrish to suck people into
responding. He's a classic troll who, although I'm sure he believes in his
message about non-OEM inks, is in it for the action - sort of like a
compulsive gambler who loses but keeps coming back for more. Also like the
child in school who continues to misbehave and is repeatedly punished -
which he regards perversely as the attention he seeks. His new tack is to
appear more civil in an effort to lend credence to his tired old message.
KILLFILE.

 

[BD]

BD - He actually does give a shit about how he comes across.

Fair enough; trolls are trolls.

I _wish_ I could kf people; but in my place of work I only have access
via Google Groups.

And, tragically, I have a pretty short fuse for blatant stupidity. So I
guess I'm a troll's best friend, in that regard.

I generally have to convince myself that someone's a troll, rather than
taking other people's opinions - which often results in me trying time
and again to 'reach' them like a normal human being would be reached.

Ah well. That's only fun for so long though, hm? ;-)

 

[Burt]

Fair enough; trolls are trolls.

I _wish_ I could kf people; but in my place of work I only have access
via Google Groups.

And, tragically, I have a pretty short fuse for blatant stupidity. So I
guess I'm a troll's best friend, in that regard.

I generally have to convince myself that someone's a troll, rather than
taking other people's opinions - which often results in me trying time
and again to 'reach' them like a normal human being would be reached.

Ah well. That's only fun for so long though, hm? ;-)

Also, as I recall, you can't insert a "nospam" phrase in your email address
to be removed if someone wants to contact you outside the group when you
access NGs through Google. Leaves you a bit more vulnerable to mining
software that collects email addresses for spamming, viruses, etc.

 

[BD]

Leaves you a bit more vulnerable to mining

software that collects email addresses for spamming, viruses, etc.

That really doesn't matter to me in this case. The hotmail address I
use is not one I use in real life. The only thing that will ever be in
there is spam and Usenet replies; it's my sacrificial lamb. They can
spam away...

 

[measekite]

I have been here long before "Measekite" and his various other names

Well I just gotta be nice so I will not call him a liar. I will say he
is in error. I do not have any other names. I have been accused of
being FB or Frank but that is untrue.

and email addresses ever set foot here. When he first appeared here,
I found Measekite's postings reasonable and measured, although
sometimes inaccurate and misguided, but no more so than most other
person who had typical use and knowledge of an inkjet printer or two.

However, like most others on this group, I soon killfiled him. The
email he's written below is a great re-write of the history I
experienced with him, and, as I stated, I stopped reading him long ago.

However, when his postings were quoted, or he used another email
address, I was again subjected o his postings until I killfiled those
other sources as well, and I saw no improvement. In fact, the quality
of the postings became more profane, rude, inappropriate, inaccurate,
dishonest, libelous and increasingly infantile, Luckily, I missed
most of that.

I always gave my opinion and it is real tough that the people in the
cult did not agree with me and many were just a responsible for doing
the things they referred to me as doing. And I do think that are many
plants in this ng who work for or are somehow associated with the
relabelers. This is one holier than thou individuals but there are worse.

The history as described here is a great misrepresentation.
"Measekite" so pushed the line of fair play and decency that several
businesses contacted lawyers and government agencies to determine
their rights, and indeed Measekite was warned on MANY occasions,
including by myself, that his postings were beyond insulting, but
libelous and he was at risk of having both civil and criminal charges
brought against him.

This I cannot understand. Just look at the websites. Call the
relabelers and ask them who is the mfg/formulater of what they sell.
Ask them why that is not disclosed on their website. Read the articles
in PCWorld and Wilhelm about generic ink. Read the problems that people
are having in this ng using products that the printer mfg do not
recommend.

Beyond all that, he also libeled numerous individuals here, many who
try to be helpful, including myself. The behavior in his postings
chased some people away from this newsgroup, because they had to sift
through profane and foolish bathroom humour to get to the valuable
information.

Worse than all of that, Measekite (who has continued to try to hide
behind his pseudonym) disparaged anyone who even suggested there were
alternatives to costly OEM inks and cartridges, and mislead people
with blatantly false and misleading information about the 3rd party
ink business and their products.

Then PCWorld who said that some of the generic inks clogged in their
printers before they could even complete the tests is not telling the
truth. I doubt it. It was said here and other places (including things
about Wilhelm) that the testers are controlled by their advertisers (the
OEMs). I am sure they do not want to misrepresent these companies but
they do have to maintain their own representation.

I will say it again. I do believe the sources I read who claim:

1. Generic inks fade faster and the results are not as good a quality

2. Generic inks are a higher risk to clog your printer

3. You really cannot track performance in the market since the
relabelers will not disclose what they are selling

4. Printer warranties state that if non recommended products damage
your printer they do not have to fix under warranty.

5. Reffilling is messy and inconvenient

And I will say I wish there were a few gneric mfg/formulators who sold
prefilled carts under their own label and packaging in all venues so
they could be tracked at under $5.00 a cart.

But I think that the industry right now is unprofessional.

I have no affiliation with any ink company. I get occasional
solicitations from them offering me free samples with implied
understanding that I will endorse the products. To date, I have never
accepted these offers and I have paid for all ink I have ever received.

I also make a point of not directly endorsing or recommending specific
ink brands, because it is true that some 3rd party labels change their
ink sources,

You never know who does and when they do so you cannot track performance
even on a relabel.

so I do not feel I should imply one is better than another. However,
I do think those who regularly use 3rd party inks who participate in
this newsgroup can offer very valuable information for those who wish
to consider using refill or other ink brands, or any type of
continuous inking systems.

The truth is simply that indeed ink quality does vary, however, there
are distributors and labels that have been in this industry for many
years now and take their reputations seriously enough to stand behind
their inks. That doesn't mean they never have problems or recalls, as
many do, but then again so have OEM companies.

I have used many different brands of inks, varying from OEM to high
end replacements to some of the cheapest inks on the market in
prefilled cartridges costing under $1 per cartridge. I also have been
in direct contact with literally tens of thousands of people using
Epson and Canon printers regarding head clogs and related issues, and
between my own experience and the continual feedback from others, I
can say that there is no distinct pattern regarding which category of
inks is most problematic. In other words OEM, mid priced, specialty
or cheap inks all have been shown to be both problem free and problem
causing. There is simply NO specific method for making a judgment on
which ink category will be good or bad.

i have been using a canon ip4000 and an hp printer for years and years
with oem ink and have never had a head clog and my printers do not do
cleaning cycles.

For several years, I have used one brand of dye ink, which is
basically "brandless"... the box couldn't be more generic and has no
address on it, other than it was made in China. I have never had a
head clog with that ink that took more than 2 cleaning cycles to fix
(and that was rare, it usually didn't clog at all), even with printers
that have sat for weeks and months between use. On the other hand,
head clogging with Epson's own inks was more common. Epson Durabrite
inks are so clog prone in the CX all-in-one printers, that most weeks
I am sending out de-clog instructions by double digits. Yet, in
general, I can literally count on one hand the number of reports of
head clogs requiring more than a few head cleanings from printers
using Epson OEM Ultrachrome inks, over any 6 month period.

based on my readings the C series epson printers and durabrite ink
(other than in heavy office use) does indeed clog and i would not
recommend them.

So, I am not suggesting ink doesn't make a difference, but that OEM
versus 3rd party is not where the lines get drawn.

Now, as to Measekite, I would very much look forward to seeing his
postings have reasonable and intelligent content rather than the
silliness that has gone on for at least a year now, but he is going to
have to prove he is capable of maintaining so decorum, even in the
sometimes challenging climate of a public newsgroup before I will be
convinced he has developed a new maturity. I hope this is a trend,
rather than an anomaly.

I have not intention of changing my views, and my opinions. The
unprofessionalism in this industry is as bad if not worse than the
generic ink itself.

 

[measekite]

I make my own pizza. I use flour, water from my own well, yeast, etc.
to make the dough. The sauce is made from my mother's recipe using
tomatoes I grew myself. I use whatever cheese and sausage I happen to
get on sale, OEM or generic. Mixing the dough and putting on the
toppings can get messy, but no more so than other things you cook from
scratch.

So am I a pizza OEM or a relabeler?

no no by hook or by crook i think you are a cook

 

[measekite]

Thank you. If you care, then mind your own business and let every user
- of whatever ink they choose - decide for themselves and not
intentionally misguide their "thinking", which you have been doing.

as a kid who wants to save his allowance it is ok for you to use what
you want and to rave about it. i can have my own opinions as well. i
believe what i say and if you do not like that is just too bad. maybe
my standards for quality, results and professionalism are higher. Maybe
i just believe in the cause that business should be more customer attentive.

You've intentionally tried (but failed) to tell me it's messy, a pain
in the ass, cloggy, fadey, runny, not worth it, need a heavy load to
succeed, and just about every thing under the sun you could dream of.

that is a perfect description of why i think about refilling. thanks
for saving me the keystrokes.

None of which have been proven to be true in the inks I use.

tell me who is the mfg/formulator of the inks you use.

 

[Burt]

That really doesn't matter to me in this case. The hotmail address I
use is not one I use in real life. The only thing that will ever be in
there is spam and Usenet replies; it's my sacrificial lamb. They can
spam away...

I've set up four email addresses with my ISP for the same reason - so I can
dump any one of them when necessary. Unfortunately, I used the account
primary email address when I started with them years ago and I have now
abandoned it and just dump whatever comes in when it gets filled up. I
would advise anyone who is just beginning to use the internet to leave the
primary address dormant from the start and set up auxilliary accounts from
the start.

 

[John McWilliams]

I was there when she developed the recipe, so I know where it came from
- but you don't because I'm not going to divulge that information. Same
thing with the oregano - I know the source, but you won't.

Sure sounds like an OEM, doesn't it?

It's astounding that folks are not only still responding to him, but
writing tomes about "Troll".

Only when everyone becomes silent about it in all respects will it stop.
And that'll take a while, should that ever happen.

 

[Ian]

WOW!!!! TYPE-RREHA!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[zakezuke]

Then PCWorld who said that some of the generic inks clogged in their
printers before they could even complete the tests is not telling the
truth. I doubt it. It was said here and other places (including things
about Wilhelm) that the testers are controlled by their advertisers (the
OEMs). I am sure they do not want to misrepresent these companies but
they do have to maintain their own representation.

I will say it again. I do believe the sources I read who claim:

1. Generic inks fade faster and the results are not as good a quality

2. Generic inks are a higher risk to clog your printer

3. You really cannot track performance in the market since the
relabelers will not disclose what they are selling

4. Printer warranties state that if non recommended products damage
your printer they do not have to fix under warranty.

5. Reffilling is messy and inconvenient

And I will say I wish there were a few gneric mfg/formulators who sold
prefilled carts under their own label and packaging in all venues so
they could be tracked at under $5.00 a cart.

But I think that the industry right now is unprofessional.

This is at least a reasonable Measekite post.

1. Out of all the inks i've seen tested, even the ones I use, they do
tend to fade faster than OEM. This is true. I've not seen an ink
tested yet which does not. I'd like to see the more premium brands
tested to see if they are worth the extra bucks.

2. While it could be said aftermarket is more prone to clog your
printer than OEM generally speaking, so long as you go with a
reccomended brand, one which has been used and tested by others, this
risk is small. An end user only needs to manualy more than twice,
after which buying a new printer is cheaper. There are printers where
the priner with a full set of OEM cartridges cost the same as or less
than the OEM ink. The Canon ip4200 new can be had, when taking tax
into account, for about the same as ink at office depot. The r200 can
be had from the Epson store as a referb for *less* than the ink it
comes with, the R220 about the same as OEM. In these two cases, you
risk nothing but some downtime, and stand to save 70% to 90%.

3. You can track peformance just fine. You can buy from the same
reseller as others and compair notes. Storebought ink carries a
barcode which if you look up those digits, even store branded ink, this
will tell you who boxed it.

4. Printer warranites also state that if damage was caused by someone
else's paper they won't cover it. Reality is they have to prove the
damage was caused by aftermarket ink. They can't void your warranty
based purely on you using aftermarket ink, it's a violation of the
Magnuson-Moss Warranty Improvement act.

5. Refilling can be messy, and might be considered by some as
inconvenient. Others like my self might find it more inconvenient to
have to go to costco, which is an adventure in it self. Office type
stores are not as nutty, you can get in and out pretty fast. I find
having bulk ink on hand more convenient, it takes far less time. Thumb
screws or rubber stoppers, as well as bottles with blunt needless
attached can keep the mess down.

Measekite said it best statement that "You save so much you can have a
pizza once a month and send your kid to prom".

Refilling by no means isn't for everyone. But the production of ink is
a long established industry, and it's no shock that those who are
experts in ink are producing ink for inkjets. OEMs won't disclose who
actually makes the ink, for good reason.

The aftermarket industry in Japan has forced them to sell their ink for
about 1/3 to 1/2 what it sells for in other places. Even if you don't
refill, or use aftermarket, those who do are a driving force in keeping
your prices down. It's not for everyone, and it may fade faster than
OEM, but it's 70% to 90% less for bulk aftermarket, a savings of tends
of dollars form the get go, hundrads of dollars for the lifetime of the
printer, perhaps even thousands for trully heavy users.

 

[Ian]

This is at least a reasonable Measekite post.

NO!!! He's an IDIOT.

1. Out of all the inks i've seen tested, even the ones I use, they do
tend to fade faster than OEM. This is true. I've not seen an ink
tested yet which does not. I'd like to see the more premium brands
tested to see if they are worth the extra bucks.

All ink fade...fast. If you want your prints to last go traditional.
Canon prints last a BIG 18 months...WOW!!!

2. While it could be said aftermarket is more prone to clog your
printer than OEM generally speaking, so long as you go with a
reccomended brand, one which has been used and tested by others, this
risk is small. An end user only needs to manualy more than twice,
after which buying a new printer is cheaper. There are printers where
the priner with a full set of OEM cartridges cost the same as or less
than the OEM ink. The Canon ip4200 new can be had, when taking tax
into account, for about the same as ink at office depot. The r200 can
be had from the Epson store as a referb for *less* than the ink it
comes with, the R220 about the same as OEM. In these two cases, you
risk nothing but some downtime, and stand to save 70% to 90%.

Correct. Buying OEM ink is just plain CRAZY!!!!

3. You can track peformance just fine. You can buy from the same
reseller as others and compair notes. Storebought ink carries a
barcode which if you look up those digits, even store branded ink, this
will tell you who boxed it.

Correct again. Buy brand name aftermarket ink and save big.

4. Printer warranites also state that if damage was caused by someone
else's paper they won't cover it. Reality is they have to prove the
damage was caused by aftermarket ink. They can't void your warranty
based purely on you using aftermarket ink, it's a violation of the
Magnuson-Moss Warranty Improvement act.

Ya...I don't use Ford oil and gas in my car...I don't use OEM ink in my
printer.

5. Refilling can be messy, and might be considered by some as
inconvenient. Others like my self might find it more inconvenient to
have to go to costco, which is an adventure in it self. Office type
stores are not as nutty, you can get in and out pretty fast. I find
having bulk ink on hand more convenient, it takes far less time. Thumb
screws or rubber stoppers, as well as bottles with blunt needless
attached can keep the mess down.

And....90% cheaper.

Measekite said it best statement that "You save so much you can have a
pizza once a month and send your kid to prom".

Make mine a pepperoni!!!

Refilling by no means isn't for everyone. But the production of ink is
a long established industry, and it's no shock that those who are
experts in ink are producing ink for inkjets. OEMs won't disclose who
actually makes the ink, for good reason.

Your right...I would love to know...I would buy it by the gallon.

The aftermarket industry in Japan has forced them to sell their ink for
about 1/3 to 1/2 what it sells for in other places. Even if you don't
refill, or use aftermarket, those who do are a driving force in keeping
your prices down. It's not for everyone, and it may fade faster than
OEM, but it's 70% to 90% less for bulk aftermarket, a savings of tends
of dollars form the get go, hundrads of dollars for the lifetime of the
printer, perhaps even thousands for trully heavy users.

I hope they never lower the price in North America.

 

[Burt]

measekite wrote: (snip)

Read THIS source, Super-troll, and believe it -

in my i960 and ip5000 with MIS or Computer Friends inks:

Risk? No clogs, no problems that are any different from OEM

Image Quality? Great looking prints - every bit as good as OEM

Fading? somewhat less fade resistant than Canon OEM, but if you want
archival quality forget dye-based inkjet prints and use either pigment-based
printers (better) or Lab prints (best, but still not perfect)

Tracking performance? So far (two years) MIS has been absolutlely
consistant. Worried about consistancy? Buy larger bulk containers to
guarantee that once you ascertain that the ink is performing as expected you
have assured consistancy for the remainder of the batch you purchased. Not
necessary with a good vendor. Alotofthings stood behind their product when
they had a problem with magenta inks. Hobbicolors exchanged ink sets when
they made an improvement in their product. MIS has given very good tech
support when I had problems refilling an Epson.

Messy? Very little mess unless you are a total klutz. If you really don't
like the hands-on experience you can buy OEM. Some people have found
aftermarket prefilled carts that they use very successfully, but you are
more assured of consitancy with refilling. He who has never refilled has no
idea how easy and neat it can be once you get the hang of it.

Inconvenient? Faster than getting in my car, driving to the store, etc.
Once your refilling workflow is worked out it is extremely easy (read
convenient).

Warranty? as has been said many times, if the printer company can't prove
the inks damaged the printer the law is on your side in the US.

Unprofessional? What is unprofessional about advertising a product, taking
an order, and sending the item promptly as agreed? Is a mom and pop
hardware store less professional than Home Depot? Is size, advertising
budget, and glitz the sign of a professional organization? Good products,
sold at a decent price, and customer service do it for me.

This is not an anti-OEM Canon post. OEM IS somewhat more fade resistant.
Many people are afraid to try anything but what is in the printer manual.
They should definitely buy OEM ink. If they want to try non-OEM inks they
should at least have recommendations from people who have real EXPERIENCE
and not someone who believes what he reads and regurgitates it (with some
biased editing) on this NG.

 

[TJ]

It's astounding that folks are not only still responding to him, but
writing tomes about "Troll".

Only when everyone becomes silent about it in all respects will it stop.
And that'll take a while, should that ever happen.

Certainly, Sir! Right away, Sir! Shutting up, Sir!

TJ

 

[zakezuke]

as a kid who wants to save his allowance it is ok for you to use what
you want and to rave about it. i can have my own opinions as well. i
believe what i say and if you do not like that is just too bad.

The problem isn't your opinion, it never was. You are allowed to like
OEM as much as you like. But the problem is your belief in OEM being
the only choice is false, misleading, and in order to get your point
across you go out of your way to harass people. This is wrong. For
example you have admited many times that your purpose is to get others
to quote you just so you can annoy those who have you killfiled.

For example, calling Taliesyn a kid who's only form of income is an
allowance is wrong. I don't know his age, but I can't assume any age
what so ever. Your statements are a form of harassment at the very
least... could very well be libelous at worst. But assuming a kid
needs to print and can't do it at school, it's nice the fact that there
is a solution that will allow him to turn in his homework on time if
the only source of income is mowing lawns. Do you know how many lawns
a kid would have to mow to fill up a current generation canon printer?


Further more, you freely admit the fact that you have gone out of your
way to harass others out of this newsgroup because you are right, and
they are wrong. In other words you are attempting to censor this group
for the benifit of others... yet at the same time you claim only you
have the right to voice your opinion?

And lastly, you spam this group with the same or similar message over
450 times a month. You are worse than a commerical spammer. Your ISP
seems to think so as well.

tell me who is the mfg/formulator of the inks you use.

Tell me the mfg/formulator of the inks you use? And don't say canon,
we know they don't manufacturer it. But if you want to know who makes
your ink, and are happy buying bulk, go formulabs or image-specalists,
image-specalists I know for a fact list authorized dealers from their
website.

 

[Burt]

OK, boys and girls of printerland - to sum up my thoughts now and
forevermore about this subject.

I just had a revelation, and it actually came from a key phrase in MK's
post. For almost two years he has referred to aftermarket ink users as
"churchies." What is a "churchie" but a person who's life is guided by
faith in a belief system. To quote the phrase that is his own admission
that HE is the actual "churchie", I quote, "...I do BELIEVE the sources I
read who claim:..." all the faults of aftermarket inks and refilling. This
in contrast to participants who, from their own long-term experience KNOW
the pros and cons and can report them to others in this NG. So, MK, Please
continue to preface your comments about mess, inconvenience, quality, etc,
with the phrase that you BELIEVE them to be true based on what you've read
and NOT by what you have learned through your own experience.