Troll

[Burt]

OK, I'd like to thank Measekite *and* all the antis for taking such
trouble to put their points forward. Both sides sound eminently
reasonable, but I think Measekite has the edge. I am new here; I guess
I'll soon find out who is right. Meanwhile, to a person with an open
mind and now no interest in generic inks, Measekite's post seems not
unreasonable. If indeed he is a troll I guess I'll soon find out because
trollity is not easily hideable for long! As to profanity, this goiup
is pretty free of that. SDome grouops have members who are absolutely
incapable of expresing themselves without copious F words. Thus the
posters obscure their thrust. This group is far more civilised. Thanks
again all. I say again, thank goodness I'm away from the whole inkjet
thing - I'm sure we all agree that carts are way too expensive.!

measekite wrote:

(snip)

aalaan - What you just saw was either Measekite on "nice pills" or
"born-again" Measekite. He has rewritten the history of this conflict. The
fact is that he, for almost two years, was on the attack with foul language,
taunts, name calling, libelous remarks about several of the decent
aftermarket vendors, foul sexual remarks about participants' mothers,
sisters, and wives, changing of other people's posts to alter their sincere
and informational responses to questions, misquoting of articles, expressing
biased opinions that countered information from honest, experienced users,
and worst of all, outright lies.

The post you regarded as reasonable is the first coherent, full
sentence-structured, decently spelled fully thought out statement that I've
seen from MK since his first few posts that I answered almost two years ago
when he asked about people's experience with aftermarket inks. He
subsequently asked, and I answered, about Kirkland photo paper. This recent
post, however, is laced with errors, all with the intent to discourage
anyone from using aftermarket products at all.

I refill BCI-6 and bci-3ebk carts for Canon printers with MIS inks and have
also used Computer Friends inks. I also set up a printer for a friend of
mine with Hobbicolor inks and showed him how to refill his carts. These are
the easiest, least messy carts to refill. MK overstates the mess issue to
discourage others, but he has never refilled a cart himself and can only
express his untested opinion and not fact.

Generic inks are not what we are talking about - these are inks specially
formulated to be used in these specific carts. The colors are excellent.
Fading has not been apparent with prints I have framed under glass or kept
in albums for over two years. Tests done by participants of the Nifty-stuff
forum do demonstrate that fading is more rapid with these inks than with OEM
ink when subjected to UV light. One then has the choice to accept that fact
in exchange for purchasing ink at 1/10th the price of OEM inks. If you
really want archival prints you would be well advised to go to the
pigment-based-ink printers. Then you would have to deal with the potential
for more frequent clogs.

The risk to printers that MK harps on is not the experience of users of the
inks that have been reported here to be good products. MK falsely reports
the high percentage of clogs from non-OEM inks. I've read nearly every post
on this NG for almost two years and my experience doesn't bear out his
continual assertion that the great majority of clogs are reported from
non-OEM inks. He has been in the habit of asking every participant with a
printer problem if they use OEM inks, regardless of the type of problem they
report! Even if the life of a Canon print head were shortened by these
products, the substantial dollar savings more than make up for the need to
purchase a new printhead or printer. MK is using a printer that, after its
initial introduction, sold for in the neighborhood of $100. Four sets of
replacement OEM carts for this printer would cost anywhere from $200 to
$260. One refill set of inks from MIS at $5 per 2 oz. container would cost
about $30, including postage. This would provide the equivalent of four or
five sets of OEM carts. In the unlikely event that you were to blow the
printhead at this point you have still saved enough to buy one or two more
printers of equivalent value! It is my opinion, based on my experience and
the reports of other experienced users, that these inks are as safe for your
printer as OEM inks. Where is the risk?

MK has a problem with ebay and paypal. Given the millions of transactions
that occur every week, the system is quite good. Unfortunately, using a
credit card anywhere subjects us to the risk of fraudulent charges. I've
had that experience on three separate occasions before paypal even existed.
MK has claimed that several vendors were unprofessional because their web
sites were not very well designed. His disdain for at least one if the
vendors was the result of their response to his trying to tell them how to
run their business. His criticism of the Nifty-stuff forum is unreasonable.
It was created as a forum for people to share information about aftermarket
inks, carts, techniques of their use, and problems that may ensue from the
use of OEM and non-OEM products. He did sign in and post a few messages
that were reasonable in tone but critical of the function of that forum.
This would be the equivalent of walking into Starbucks, standing on a chair,
and proclaiming coffee to be harmful and a poor choice of beverage! It is a
moderated forum, and he was advised that he was welcome to participate but
that he was requested to contribute information gained from his own
experience.

Unfortunately, Willhelm, PC mag, and Consumers didn't test the inks that
most of the refilling participants use here. The last Consumers report,
issued this month, tried one refill kit from an office supply firm and
concluded that it was too messy and did not provide enough savings to be
worthwhile. I believe that they were refilling and HP cart - not nearly as
simple as the Canon carts I mentioned. The savings from purchasing
aftermarket prefilled carts or refill kits from office supply firms such as
Staples is minimal as compared to substantial savings from online vendors.
MK uses these articles to refute what experienced users of suitable products
report on this NG. He also twists the intent of the articles as can be seen
by actually reading the Consumers most recent article and comparing it to
his statement.

I'm afraid you've been "sucked in" by his reasonable style on the latest
posts. He's still the same extremely biased troll who refutes what others
have learned from their own experience and wish to share with others. I
have no problem with those who, because of the potential fading issue or
fear of trying any of these products, choose to stay with OEM inks. I do
take issue with MK's approach which is to spread rumor and falsehoods. I
would compare my printed photos, using MIS and Computer Friends inks, to
prints made with Canon OEM inks anyday. they are absolutely beautiful, even
after hanging on my wall in frames for two years. My i960 printer lasted
through at least 60 individual refilled cartridge changes - a savings of
about $500 to $600 dollars from using OEM inks. That's a pretty good run
for the average Canon print head. I have no problem buying a replacment
printhead for about $80 to start the process over again, or I can use one of
the IP5000 printers I bought on closeout in January for $100 each to use
when an older printer fails.

 

[measekite]

Go for it. So would I.

But in your usual manner of avoiding truth and facts, you have turned to
oil and cars. Why not cars and fast women? Try to stay on topic, if you
can.

In your typically unashamed arrogance you simply will not admit that
many people here find refilling economical, well worth it, safe for the
printer, and not messy.

the people that find refilling economical (only heavy users) worth it
(only heavy users) safe for the printer ( a few users who print a great
deal so the ink does not dry in the heads) and not messy are the few.
If you take the millions of people who have purchased inkjet printers
over the past 3 years the number of non oem users are very small and the
number who who through the bother of the mess required for refilling is
even miniscule. If that was not the case the printer companies would
have to raise the price of their printers to make a profit or they would
go out of business. that is not the case.

What's wrong, such a thing cannot exist in your
tiny misinformed world? Continue to ignore the truth, post lies and
misinformation, ridicule people, and you get what you rightfully deserve
- the troll label.

i do not have to ridicule you. you never want to admiut that you are
among the minority in the world of inkjet users.

When you finally admit that some people find refilling works perfectly
for them,

i have always said that if a person is a very heavy user then using
generic ink may be worth it since they will get the mileage out of their
printer before they have a clog. notwithstanding the fact that generic
inks fade much more rapidly according to wilhelm labs who tested them
and who is respected by both the oem community and the very small
generic ink population.

i also say that for some of these people who print so much and find
generic inks to their liking the prefilled cart is better. cheap enough
to not have to bother with the mess and inconvenience of refilling carts.

 

[zakezuke]

aalaan - What you just saw was either Measekite on "nice pills" or
"born-again" Measekite. He has rewritten the history of this conflict. The
fact is that he, for almost two years, was on the attack with foul language,
taunts, name calling, libelous remarks about several of the decent
aftermarket vendors, foul sexual remarks about participants' mothers,
sisters, and wives, changing of other people's posts to alter their sincere
and informational responses to questions, misquoting of articles, expressing
biased opinions that countered information from honest, experienced users,
and worst of all, outright lies.

Yes, I had forgotten about this issue. This seemed to bug the hell out
of people and it took countless complaints to his ISP to get him to
stop.

But yes, I entered this group sometime last year basicly looking for
information, and in some isolated cases I could even agree with
Measekite on some points, but I eventually bought aftermarket ink and I
became Zookie Kookie, for over a year. Currently Measekite is obsessed
with Taliesyn, making the claim he's a highschool student who can't
afford OEM ink, which if he is odds are he couldn't, but he is a
Canadian user who has to spend even more than American users on OEM
ink. In the states, one can get an IP4200 on sale for the same cost as
the ink, where in Canada they have to spend US$100 (CAD$113) for the
ink plus tax. They are spending US$30 more plus tax then then I can
mail order a ip4200 for without tax. Needless to say you can buy the
printer for about the same price as the ink. Needless to say self
filling, the only option on this printer, is an attractive option which
if it results in explosion, and explosion wouldn't happen with OEM ink,
your out perhaps ten bucks.

My i960 printer lasted
through at least 60 individual refilled cartridge changes - a savings of
about $500 to $600 dollars from using OEM inks. That's a pretty good run
for the average Canon print head. I have no problem buying a replacment
printhead for about $80 to start the process over again, or I can use one of
the IP5000 printers I bought on closeout in January for $100 each to use
when an older printer fails.

Yes, the canon printhead, at least in the ip4000 series was "end of
life" after the 10th cartridge change according to their numbers and my
math. I got 13, others have said 20, and I could believe 60 as mine
started banding after 3 weeks of no use.

I bought the cheapest model I could, the ip3000 when it was on sale for
$65 shipped. I could have gotten a $20 rebate but I never bothered. I
thought about the ip4000 but it was $40 more and I wanted to test CD
printing, and if good I would buy a more spendy model, and after that
decided to go for MIS ink and see how well it worked in my $65 printer.


Since canon didn't want their old heads back, I am taking the time to
soak the old end to see if I can resolve the clog.

 

[BD]

Let me brief you on the history of what is going on.

HOLY CRAP!

I see... sentence structure.

I see... punctuation.

I see... capital letters.

I see... thought-out discussion...

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU, and WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MILQUETOAST?

 

[aalaan]

aalaan - What you just saw was either Measekite on "nice pills" or
"born-again" Measekite. He has rewritten the history of this conflict. The
fact is that he, for almost two years, was on the attack with foul language,
taunts, name calling, libelous remarks about several of the decent
aftermarket vendors, foul sexual remarks about participants' mothers,
sisters, and wives, changing of other people's posts to alter their sincere
and informational responses to questions, misquoting of articles, expressing
biased opinions that countered information from honest, experienced users,
and worst of all, outright lies.

The post you regarded as reasonable is the first coherent, full
sentence-structured, decently spelled fully thought out statement that I've
seen from MK since his first few posts that I answered almost two years ago
when he asked about people's experience with aftermarket inks. He
subsequently asked, and I answered, about Kirkland photo paper. This recent
post, however, is laced with errors, all with the intent to discourage
anyone from using aftermarket products at all.

I refill BCI-6 and bci-3ebk carts for Canon printers with MIS inks and have
also used Computer Friends inks. I also set up a printer for a friend of
mine with Hobbicolor inks and showed him how to refill his carts. These are
the easiest, least messy carts to refill. MK overstates the mess issue to
discourage others, but he has never refilled a cart himself and can only
express his untested opinion and not fact.

Generic inks are not what we are talking about - these are inks specially
formulated to be used in these specific carts. The colors are excellent.
Fading has not been apparent with prints I have framed under glass or kept
in albums for over two years. Tests done by participants of the Nifty-stuff
forum do demonstrate that fading is more rapid with these inks than with OEM
ink when subjected to UV light. One then has the choice to accept that fact
in exchange for purchasing ink at 1/10th the price of OEM inks. If you
really want archival prints you would be well advised to go to the
pigment-based-ink printers. Then you would have to deal with the potential
for more frequent clogs.

The risk to printers that MK harps on is not the experience of users of the
inks that have been reported here to be good products. MK falsely reports
the high percentage of clogs from non-OEM inks. I've read nearly every post
on this NG for almost two years and my experience doesn't bear out his
continual assertion that the great majority of clogs are reported from
non-OEM inks. He has been in the habit of asking every participant with a
printer problem if they use OEM inks, regardless of the type of problem they
report! Even if the life of a Canon print head were shortened by these
products, the substantial dollar savings more than make up for the need to
purchase a new printhead or printer. MK is using a printer that, after its
initial introduction, sold for in the neighborhood of $100. Four sets of
replacement OEM carts for this printer would cost anywhere from $200 to
$260. One refill set of inks from MIS at $5 per 2 oz. container would cost
about $30, including postage. This would provide the equivalent of four or
five sets of OEM carts. In the unlikely event that you were to blow the
printhead at this point you have still saved enough to buy one or two more
printers of equivalent value! It is my opinion, based on my experience and
the reports of other experienced users, that these inks are as safe for your
printer as OEM inks. Where is the risk?

MK has a problem with ebay and paypal. Given the millions of transactions
that occur every week, the system is quite good. Unfortunately, using a
credit card anywhere subjects us to the risk of fraudulent charges. I've
had that experience on three separate occasions before paypal even existed.
MK has claimed that several vendors were unprofessional because their web
sites were not very well designed. His disdain for at least one if the
vendors was the result of their response to his trying to tell them how to
run their business. His criticism of the Nifty-stuff forum is unreasonable.
It was created as a forum for people to share information about aftermarket
inks, carts, techniques of their use, and problems that may ensue from the
use of OEM and non-OEM products. He did sign in and post a few messages
that were reasonable in tone but critical of the function of that forum.
This would be the equivalent of walking into Starbucks, standing on a chair,
and proclaiming coffee to be harmful and a poor choice of beverage! It is a
moderated forum, and he was advised that he was welcome to participate but
that he was requested to contribute information gained from his own
experience.

Unfortunately, Willhelm, PC mag, and Consumers didn't test the inks that
most of the refilling participants use here. The last Consumers report,
issued this month, tried one refill kit from an office supply firm and
concluded that it was too messy and did not provide enough savings to be
worthwhile. I believe that they were refilling and HP cart - not nearly as
simple as the Canon carts I mentioned. The savings from purchasing
aftermarket prefilled carts or refill kits from office supply firms such as
Staples is minimal as compared to substantial savings from online vendors.
MK uses these articles to refute what experienced users of suitable products
report on this NG. He also twists the intent of the articles as can be seen
by actually reading the Consumers most recent article and comparing it to
his statement.

I'm afraid you've been "sucked in" by his reasonable style on the latest
posts. He's still the same extremely biased troll who refutes what others

<snip>

OK Burt, that history seems pretty bad! Well, if he's turned over a new
leaf and is now reasonable, surely that's what you all want? And if
it's a temporary abberation and I've been 'sucked in' this time surely
he'll revert to type in a few days and your point will be proved. We'll
see. Perahsp he'll try very hard and try to be good to make his point -
then, as I say, you should all be happy!

I was going to unsubscribe shortly as I've gone to a laser (thank
goodness) and most of the postings here seem to be about bubblejets, but
I'll hang around for a bit to see what happens! Meanwhile, greetings to
all from the land of the barbecue...

 

[Taliesyn]

the people that find refilling economical (only heavy users) worth it
(only heavy users) safe for the printer ( a few users who print a great
deal so the ink does not dry in the heads) and not messy are the few.

I'm classed as a light user this year, since December 2005. There is
absolutely no difference in performance - that is, no clogging, no
manual cleaning. And no, there is nothing mysterious drying on the heads.

If you take the millions of people who have purchased inkjet printers
over the past 3 years the number of non oem users are very small and the
number who who through the bother of the mess required for refilling is
even miniscule.

If the figures were minuscule printer makers would not have been
frightened into putting elaborate chips on their cartridges. The last
official data I read was that 20% of the market was dominated by
refillers, generic cartridges and remanufactured cartridges
(HP/Lexmark). OEMs still made a crushing 3 or 4 billion in sales. Take
another 20% away from that profit and you can see the panic of the
printer makers. They desperately want your money - and mine. Some of us
instead have decided their ink wasn't worth it and use generics... saved
enough for a pizza every week and a prom!

If that was not the case the printer companies would
have to raise the price of their printers to make a profit or they would
go out of business. that is not the case.




i do not have to ridicule you.

You've made no attempt not to. You really must hate it that I'm
perfectly satisfied with my inks. So it takes 10 minutes to refill.
Peanuts. At my current ink consumption rate this year, that'll come out
to about a half hour of my time - and save me enough money to get a free
printer. Last year I saved around $1000 CDN. So how many hours did you
waste posting, what is it now, 5700 messages (!!!) in the last year or
so. My, my, talk about someone mucho tinkering with too much time on his
hands. Can't you find a better hobby than harassment?

you never want to admiut that you are
among the minority in the world of inkjet users.

In the minority of what - successful users or just users? No one knows
the percentage of successful or unsuccessful users. Some who have had
problems have reported them. Some have not had problems and have
reported their successes. I'm a success story. The fact that a printhead
died on me after less than 2 months I don't blame on the ink because the
replacement is still working almost a year and a half later, also with
generic inks.

-Taliesyn

 

[zakezuke]

OK Burt, that history seems pretty bad! Well, if he's turned over a new
leaf and is now reasonable, surely that's what you all want?

It takes hundrads of complaints to his ISP to get him in a good mood,
and even when he is in resonable mode, his facts are inaccurate.

These are the points that are accurate

1. Refilling can be messy - true enough, it is a liquid.
2. Expect print life to be less - nothing i've seen tested compaires
to OEM
3. Colors are different - They can be so close you can't tell, but
it's fair to say another brand of dye is not going to be exactly the
same.

As well as these points

1. Good aftermarket ink will not cause a printer to explode
2. If you print with more than two sets of cartridges, you saved
enough to buy another printer.
3. As Measekite says, you stand so save enough to have a pizza once a
month and send your kid to prom.

But what more do we want? We would actually like it if this chap, even
if he stays in reasonable mode, which he never does for long, we would
enjoy it if he would not be so obsessed with aftermarket ink, and not
blame every problem with printing to aftermarket ink. We would enjoy
it if he would accuratly evaluate the pros and cons of OEM vs
aftermarket and actually point out valid reasons why OEM would be the
better choice in a given situation. There are so many pro-aftermarket
users here that a pro-OEM user would be good.

But you have gone laser... and it's fair to say most of the postings
around here are inkjet related... likely due to the fact that lasers
are a more stable technology and... in all fairness, inkjets are
flacky.

 

[Ian]

the entire printing system (c series printers and the durabrite inks)
are basically a poor design. but in its defense they should only be
used in small businesses where the printing is moderate to heavy and the
because of high usage the ink does not dry out in the head. that said a
better choice for this environment would be either a b/w or color laser.

I don't know why someone would use a c series printer for business.

it is messy. some say eating chicken or ribs is messy and others do
not. there have been posts in this ng about how to clean the ink off of
carpets. it is messy. it is inconvenient. you have to wash neddles
and it take the focus off doing business.

It's not messy. I don't find eating chicken and ribs messy, but I am
civilized. I would not refill a cartridge on my carpet.

imagine an office where workers are going around with needles refilling
printers instead of doing their job. they should be fired.

What ever that means???? Maybe that's your problem...you have a crappy
job.

you do not know what they tested cause the relabelers wont say and if
they told them they did not publish it.

And if they published it...you would believe it. I have a mind of my
own...not controled by PC Mag.

some are and some are not.

One is...You!!!!

 

[Ian]

HOLY CRAP!

I see... sentence structure.

I see... punctuation.

I see... capital letters.

I see... thought-out discussion...

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU, and WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MILQUETOAST?

He just graduated ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

 

[zakezuke]

the people that find refilling economical (only heavy users) worth it
(only heavy users) safe for the printer ( a few users who print a great
deal so the ink does not dry in the heads) and not messy are the few.

A given set of ink from Hobbicolors for the ip4200 costs around $20.00.
OEM costs $70.00. "All users" save $50 from the get go, "all users",
not heavy users, not light users "all users". Furhter, not only do you
save $50 from the get go, but given $20 gives you 4 refills of all
colors, this would cost over $280 OEM. All users save over $260.

The ink does not mysteriously dry in the printheads, these are water
based dye inks just like OEM, the drying factor doesn't happen and
canon has it's own built in cleaning cycles.

Canon printheads are end of life after 10 cartridge changes, even if
you only get 8 cartridge changes out of it, you saved $520.

If you take the millions of people who have purchased inkjet printers
over the past 3 years the number of non oem users are very small and the
number who who through the bother of the mess required for refilling is
even miniscule. If that was not the case the printer companies would
have to raise the price of their printers to make a profit or they would
go out of business. that is not the case.

This is something you just made up off the top of your head. The truth
is you have no idea how many people refill and how many don't. In
Japan canon lowered their prices of their ink to compete with
aftermarket, but raised prices in America and Europe. This would
sugest that each time someone takes the time to manualy refill it
creates an incentive for OEMs to lower their prices to stay
competitive. Even if you don't use aftermarket ink, these people are
your friends creating competition that will result in lower prices.

What I can not understand is why you are so obsessed telling people who
take the time to refill are wrong in doing so. You might think it's
too messy, but that is your choice. I don't think it's too messy,
that's my choice. If my printer explodes, I saved hundrads.

i do not have to ridicule you. you never want to admiut that you are
among the minority in the world of inkjet users.

What does it matter if one is in the majority or not. The fact of the
matter is there is a market for bulk ink. You can guy the stuff by the
freight truck load. Not only for the people who sell prefilled
compatable cartridges, but the smaller time bottle selelrs, fill as you
wait businesses such as Island Inkjets and Cartridge World. Though the
use of bulk ink you can have your home printlab and print as much as
you want for pennies.

If aftermarket only has a 1% market share, this is big bucks. Just
about every store carries an aftermarket brand or a house brand of ink.

i have always said that if a person is a very heavy user then using
generic ink may be worth it since they will get the mileage out of their
printer before they have a clog.

Actually you do say that, but you also harrass anyone who uses
aftermarket and claim it's because they don't make enough mowing lawns
to pay for OEM ink. This is true. The going rate seems to be US$25 to
mow a lawn and OEM costs $50 to $100 to refill a photo printer.

If you were to stick to the statement "heavy users benifit the most",
this would be fine, but you say this and continue to harass the heavy
users for having printers which, according to you, will explode. They
don't, and if they did, it still costs less, by 70% to 90%.

notwithstanding the fact that generic
inks fade much more rapidly according to wilhelm labs who tested them
and who is respected by both the oem community and the very small
generic ink population.

According to wihelm labs, who is respected world wide, canon fades the
fastest out of all the options tested. Go figure.

i also say that for some of these people who print so much and find
generic inks to their liking the prefilled cart is better. cheap enough
to not have to bother with the mess and inconvenience of refilling carts.

You say more than one thing... you don't have a single platform which
you stand on. You continue to change what you say to fit the
situation. And even worse, you lie about the cost of ink.

I refill my tanks once a month, takes less than 1/2 hour. Costco would
take me 1hour.

 

[measekite]

First you need to know that this person and a few of his close
correspondents on this ng have some kind of a close knit relationship
regarding generic ink. They go off half cocked when I refer to the ink
they use as generic ink. If they want to call it something else that is
there business but they do not have to knock me for the choice of words
that I want to use.

One member of this group was the first (I do not remember who) to attact
me with the use of foul language and other verbage as he describe and I
responded to this nastiness.

However, I am sure you have seen the nice sweet sounding person that
does a whole lot of digging behind your back. Some people refer to
these individuals as snakes.

Anyway regarding the two suppliers:

MIS

I did contact them. They told me they will not disclose who the
formulator/mfg they use is for the same reasons that I described in
similiar posts. Their website uses terms like compatible and we know
that is an overused word that means very little except that the cart may
fit in the designated printer and squirt ink.

Hobbicolors

They have a website on ebay and take paypal. I have read many negative
comments about doing business that way having to do with security. If
people want to take a risk doing business that way they can do that.

I found the person I spoke with at Hobbicolors courteous but they
emphatically refuse to disclose what brand of ink they sell because they
are afraid that the type of people who frequent this ng will buy from
their source. The source only sells in prohibitively large quantities
so I really do not believe them. They also do not tell you the brand of
their website and disclose very little except the word compatible.

It is a word that was heavily use when clones (sort of) wanted to
compete with the IBMPC but did not have the eprom chips to run basic and
other software also failed.

Additionally, people who have used these inks have complained about
problems that source back to generic ink. When these organizations
decide to sell someone elses ink under the same name you will never know.

Canon, HP and Epson designed that printer around a system that works
together. Certainly I use Costco/Kirkland paper. And yes the results
are very good. And yes Canon Photo Paper Pro is somewhat better but not
much and at 7 times the price I find it not work it. But if I had a
wide format printer and wanted to go 13x19 I would either buy Canon
Photo Paper Pro or Epson Paper. Even Canon Tech support recommended
Epson paper if I chose not to buy Canon Paper.

Burt wrote:

snip

Now in order form something to be less messy than it is obvious that
messiness is a range with some being more messy than others as well as
being inconvenient. These people do not want to admit that it and
generic prefilled carts may have a numerical advantage if you print a
great deal. The average user does not print that much and will not save
much versus the risk (along with fading and less desireable results) to
make it worthwhile.

I was in costco where I found a Canon user purchasing ink for his i960.
He state he just got his new printhead that cost him much. He said it
was clogged due to generic ink. He could not remember which relabeler
he got it from but did say they made all of the same claims on their
website as most do.

Professional reviews have stated these things.
This is generic.

Wilhelm says they fade

This is a cult and he is or was a moderator of the group. You need to
know all of the information.

Some members of this group are recommending that you buy a pigmented
printer and then use dye ink in it. Now do you call this compatible.
Not me.

The real issue is you cannot judge by following a brand on what is good
and what is not because the relabelers will not disclose what they are
selling and may not be selling the same thing all of the time.

Again that depends on the print load of the user.

A mess. I do not want to support relabelers that refuse to tell me what
I am buying. I also will not buy gray market goods. I only buy photo
product from suppliers or sell official USA warranty merchandise.

Until someone duplicates your identity.

Most good professional vendors welcome customer feedback on how they can
improve their service and image. Costco has a suggestion box in the
front of every store.

So what is wrong with that. Free speech that he does not agree with. I
do not care about winning a popularity contest. I have my own opinions
and am going to express them. It appears that aalaan accepts them for
what I intend them to be.

No true. As a moderator that was his disire.

Good case in point. Since the his supplier will not under and
circumstance (by his own admission) disclose who their mfg/formulator's
are and more than one if they have that many) then he has know way of
knowing if they tested the inks sold by any of these relabelers or not.

Now the act of drilling hole, sucking ink into a syrange, squiting it
into a cart, sealing the cart and then the clean up so you can use the
stuff again is the same basic procedure for all refilling. It is the
act of transferring ink from a big bottle into a cart using a needle and
sealing the cart. Comon cut me some slack. One cannot be that
stubborn. There are some people on this ng who for one reason of
another want to use generic ink and have stated they prefer prefilled
generic carts because refilling was too messy and inconvenient.

Again his opinion.

More name calling but this is mild.

 

[measekite]

I'm classed as a light user this year, since December 2005. There is
absolutely no difference in performance - that is, no clogging, no
manual cleaning. And no, there is nothing mysterious drying on the heads.




If the figures were minuscule printer makers would not have been
frightened into putting elaborate chips on their cartridges. The last
official data I read was that 20% of the market was dominated by
refillers, generic cartridges and remanufactured cartridges
(HP/Lexmark). OEMs still made a crushing 3 or 4 billion in sales. Take
another 20% away from that profit and you can see the panic of the
printer makers. They desperately want your money - and mine. Some of us
instead have decided their ink wasn't worth it and use generics... saved
enough for a pizza every week and a prom!

Maybe you should find a generic pizza. Some are quite good but the very
large groceries are almost brands in themselves but that is not the case
here. One can get store many bottles of ink in a 400 square foot
garage, develop a mediocre website using inexpensive software and have
almost no capital and bang they are a relabeler. They can even start
out having other companies prefilling their carts.

You've made no attempt not to. You really must hate it that I'm
perfectly satisfied with my inks. So it takes 10 minutes to refill.

Before you said you can refill it in 2 minutes while the cart is still
in the printer.

Peanuts. At my current ink consumption rate this year, that'll come
out to about a half hour of my time - and save me enough money to get
a free printer.

If you saved that much then your printload is not light and is atypical.

Last year I saved around $1000 CDN. So how many hours did you waste
posting, what is it now, 5700 messages (!!!) in the last year or
so. My, my, talk about someone mucho tinkering with too much time on his
hands. Can't you find a better hobby than harassment?


In the minority of what - successful users or just users? No one
knows the percentage of successful or unsuccessful users. Some who
have had
problems have reported them. Some have not had problems and have
reported their successes. I'm a success story.

The fact that a printhead died on me after less than 2 months

That must have clogged fast.

 

[zakezuke]

First you need to know that this person and a few of his close
correspondents on this ng have some kind of a close knit relationship
regarding generic ink. They go off half cocked when I refer to the ink
they use as generic ink. If they want to call it something else that is
there business but they do not have to knock me for the choice of words
that I want to use.

It's a conspiracy.

One member of this group was the first (I do not remember who) to attact
me with the use of foul language and other verbage as he describe and I
responded to this nastiness.

So, because of one person you spent over a year lashing out at
everyone?

What about Mary, a user of Staple's ink. What excuse did you have to
lashing out at her?

You sound reasonable at the moment, but this does not make up for over
a year of bad bahavior.

However, I am sure you have seen the nice sweet sounding person that
does a whole lot of digging behind your back. Some people refer to
these individuals as snakes.

It's a conspiracy... we all correspond behind your back, we are
obsessed with you, we are part of as you put it some underground
aftermarket church cult. We all get a financial kick back for saying
these products work just fine when in reality they result in explosion.

Anyway regarding the two suppliers:

MIS

I did contact them. They told me they will not disclose who the
formulator/mfg they use is for the same reasons that I described in
similiar posts.

It's "Image-Specalists" They are the OFFICAL supplier to MIS. It is
disclosed.
http://www.image-specialists.com/GlobalDistributors.htm
For America it's MIS and WeInk

This is yet another Measekite lie.

Hobbicolors

They have a website on ebay and take paypal. I have read many negative
comments about doing business that way having to do with security. If
people want to take a risk doing business that way they can do that.

What negative comment have you heard? They do take postal money
orders. They do take orders. You've been told this, yet you continue
to lie about the subject. They have no disclosed to me what they are
selling, but they are not required to.

But please link to who ever said something negative about hobbicolors.

I found the person I spoke with at Hobbicolors courteous but they
emphatically refuse to disclose what brand of ink they sell because they
are afraid that the type of people who frequent this ng will buy from
their source. The source only sells in prohibitively large quantities
so I really do not believe them.

It's a conspiracy, it must not be the fear of someone else starting up
a similar business, but a multi layered deception.

They also do not tell you the brand of
their website and disclose very little except the word compatible.

It's ink, it's $20 for a set.

It is a word that was heavily use when clones (sort of) wanted to
compete with the IBMPC but did not have the eprom chips to run basic and
other software also failed.

What software did this? Seriously! I'm aware that the clone market
when it first started out lacked basic on roms. It was moved to disc,
and eventually was abandoned. You are talking about a very short
period of time in computing that very very few people experenced
because the clones are the standard and the brand names, the brand name
pcs are the ones that were not 100% compatable, though compaq has
gotten better since they started using Asus motherboards.

Additionally, people who have used these inks have complained about
problems that source back to generic ink. When these organizations
decide to sell someone elses ink under the same name you will never know.

It's a conspiracy! Only in YOUR mind... You associate every problem
with a printer with aftermarket ink. Doesn't render your font well, it
must be aftermarket ink. Won't accept a memory upgrade, it's
aftermarket ink. Blow power supply? Aftermarket ink.

Canon, HP and Epson designed that printer around a system that works
together. Certainly I use Costco/Kirkland paper.

So you don't even bother to use the system. Did you know canon doesn't
reccomend the use of any paper other than their own? It's true... I
got the whole speech from canon, rather shocking as I didn't think they
made plain paper but hey, if the damage was caused by aftermarket paper
it's not covered under the warranty.

Now in order form something to be less messy than it is obvious that
messiness is a range with some being more messy than others as well as
being inconvenient.

Yep, sure is inconvenient spending less than 30min a month topping off
my tanks, so much more inconvenient than going to costco, finding a
parking space, standing in line, using gas.

These people do not want to admit that it and
generic prefilled carts may have a numerical advantage if you print a
great deal.

Or just a little. Did you know canon has automated cleaning cycles?
It's true. A given tank if you power it on once a day will run dry in
under a year, even if you don't print a single color. That's $70 down
the drain. That's not a good deal.

The average user does not print that much and will not save
much versus the risk (along with fading and less desireable results) to
make it worthwhile.

There is fading, desireable results is an opinion, but the cost is 70%
to 90% less with bulk ink, 50% to 60% less with prefills.

I was in costco where I found a Canon user purchasing ink for his i960.

You spend all your free time in Costco and Frys. You always have a
story about Costco and Frys.

He state he just got his new printhead that cost him much.

This is true, printheads are $60 to $100 typicaly speaking, but when
you saved hundrads on ink, it costs less to buy printheads than OEM
ink. It's like trying to protect your $100 investment by spending
$710. If you want to spend $710 on ink, that's ok, but that's what 10
sets of 5 cartridges on a new printer will cost you on a ip4200/5200.
Only $576 assuming $9.60/pack, but you'd have to buy tripacks. And
come to think about it, does your costco even sell bci-6bk? Does it
even sell the light Cyan / light magenta? Is this yet another
Measekite lie?

He said it
was clogged due to generic ink.

If he said it, it must be true. Printheads *never* fail as a result of
use. And the end user is always right.

He could not remember which relabeler
he got it from but did say they made all of the same claims on their
website as most do.

You really must spend ALL your free time talking to people about
aftermarket ink. You have so many stories that it must CONSUME your
life. The real question is how much aftermarket ink did he use, how
much did it cost. How much did the printer print all together. We are
talking about a printer that hasn't been in production for a while, so
we are talking something 1 year old, two years old. odds are it's burn
out and not a clog, canon printheads do that, it's in the service
manual.

Oh but wait... it's a conspiracy.

Professional reviews have stated these things.

What things? PCworld? They tested a hand full of inks some years ago.

Wilhelm says they fade

Wihelm says canon fades!

This is a cult and he is or was a moderator of the group. You need to
know all of the information.

It's a conspiracy... there is an evil cult. Woot woot!

Some members of this group are recommending that you buy a pigmented
printer and then use dye ink in it. Now do you call this compatible.
Not me.

What are you talking about? It's a conspiracy.

The real issue is you cannot judge by following a brand on what is good
and what is not because the relabelers will not disclose what they are
selling and may not be selling the same thing all of the time.

It's a conspiracy.

The truth is, you can depend on the users of this group to accuracy
communicate what they use, and how well it works. If you ask nice, one
might even provide a sample. I have used MIS, i'm trying Hobbicolors.

Again that depends on the print load of the user.

A user who prints squat saves $50, a user who prints bucks saves $250
using the wonderful kit from Hobbicolors per kit.

A mess. I do not want to support relabelers that refuse to tell me what
I am buying.

It's a conspiracy.

I also will not buy gray market goods.

It's a conspiracy.

I only buy photo
product from suppliers or sell official USA warranty merchandise.

It's a conspiracy.

Until someone duplicates your identity.

It's a conspiracy.

Most good professional vendors welcome customer feedback on how they can
improve their service and image. Costco has a suggestion box in the
front of every store.

It's a conspiracy.

So what is wrong with that. Free speech that he does not agree with.

It's a conspiracy.

I
do not care about winning a popularity contest. I have my own opinions
and am going to express them.

The problem is when you present your opinion as fact, you lie. You
also stalk, harass, belittle, and fill this group with almost 10,000
messages a year.

It appears that aalaan accepts them for what I intend them to be.

It's a conspiracy.

No true. As a moderator that was his disire.

It's a conspiracy.

Good case in point. Since the his supplier will not under and
circumstance (by his own admission) disclose who their mfg/formulator's
are

It's a conspiracy.

and more than one if they have that many) then he has know way of
knowing if they tested the inks sold by any of these relabelers or not.

It's a conspiracy.

Now the act of drilling hole, sucking ink into a syrange, squiting it
into a cart, sealing the cart and then the clean up so you can use the
stuff again is the same basic procedure for all refilling.

Unless you buy cartridges with rubber or thumbscrew caps.

It's a conspiracy.

It is the
act of transferring ink from a big bottle into a cart using a needle and
sealing the cart.

Yep, bottles with blunt needles on it are the way to go... oh that's
right

It's a conspiracy.

Comon cut me some slack. One cannot be that
stubborn. There are some people on this ng who for one reason of
another want to use generic ink and have stated they prefer prefilled
generic carts because refilling was too messy and inconvenient.

It's a conspiracy.

Again his opinion.

It's a conspiracy.

More name calling but this is mild.

Wait, you are accusing others of name calling?

 

[Taliesyn]

Maybe you should find a generic pizza. Some are quite good but the very
large groceries are almost brands in themselves but that is not the case
here. One can get store many bottles of ink in a 400 square foot
garage, develop a mediocre website using inexpensive software and have
almost no capital and bang they are a relabeler. They can even start
out having other companies prefilling their carts.

I've told you many times I don't care which actual company makes the
ink. Same for Canon, I don't care who formulates, makes or packages it.
They won't tell me anyway if I ask. So I'm well trained from OEMs not to
ask anyone who makes the ink.

Before you said you can refill it in 2 minutes while the cart is still
in the printer.

No, honestly you have mixed me with someone else. I do not fill a
cartridge in the printer. I don't know for sure but I'm guessing that
would cause a leak because you have to open the filling port on top.
You can't have two ports open at the same time. Gravity takes over.
It would take me about 10 minutes to fill a set of 4 color cartridges.
The big black is changed separately because it empties on a different
schedule from a set of colors which often go one right after the other.

If you saved that much then your printload is not light and is atypical.

Just two sets of Canon cartridges in Canada will pay for much more than
a new ip4200. Two sets is considered a light load. Just automatic
cleaning on startup will probably remove a good percentage of your ink.

That must have clogged fast.

My frequency of printing stayed the same all last year. It was most
likely a sudden burnout as printhead removal and cleaning had absolutely
not effect. The replacement printhead used the exact same inks and
worked fine with the same printload. If it was a clog the same thing
should have happened. And it didn't still in perfect shape.

-Taliesyn

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I have been here long before "Measekite" and his various other names and
email addresses ever set foot here. When he first appeared here, I
found Measekite's postings reasonable and measured, although sometimes
inaccurate and misguided, but no more so than most other person who had
typical use and knowledge of an inkjet printer or two.

However, like most others on this group, I soon killfiled him. The
email he's written below is a great re-write of the history I
experienced with him, and, as I stated, I stopped reading him long ago.

However, when his postings were quoted, or he used another email
address, I was again subjected o his postings until I killfiled those
other sources as well, and I saw no improvement. In fact, the quality
of the postings became more profane, rude, inappropriate, inaccurate,
dishonest, libelous and increasingly infantile, Luckily, I missed most
of that.

The history as described here is a great misrepresentation. "Measekite"
so pushed the line of fair play and decency that several businesses
contacted lawyers and government agencies to determine their rights, and
indeed Measekite was warned on MANY occasions, including by myself, that
his postings were beyond insulting, but libelous and he was at risk of
having both civil and criminal charges brought against him.

Beyond all that, he also libeled numerous individuals here, many who try
to be helpful, including myself. The behavior in his postings chased
some people away from this newsgroup, because they had to sift through
profane and foolish bathroom humour to get to the valuable information.

Worse than all of that, Measekite (who has continued to try to hide
behind his pseudonym) disparaged anyone who even suggested there were
alternatives to costly OEM inks and cartridges, and mislead people with
blatantly false and misleading information about the 3rd party ink
business and their products.

I have no affiliation with any ink company. I get occasional
solicitations from them offering me free samples with implied
understanding that I will endorse the products. To date, I have never
accepted these offers and I have paid for all ink I have ever received.

I also make a point of not directly endorsing or recommending specific
ink brands, because it is true that some 3rd party labels change their
ink sources, so I do not feel I should imply one is better than another.
However, I do think those who regularly use 3rd party inks who
participate in this newsgroup can offer very valuable information for
those who wish to consider using refill or other ink brands, or any type
of continuous inking systems.

The truth is simply that indeed ink quality does vary, however, there
are distributors and labels that have been in this industry for many
years now and take their reputations seriously enough to stand behind
their inks. That doesn't mean they never have problems or recalls, as
many do, but then again so have OEM companies.

I have used many different brands of inks, varying from OEM to high end
replacements to some of the cheapest inks on the market in prefilled
cartridges costing under $1 per cartridge. I also have been in direct
contact with literally tens of thousands of people using Epson and Canon
printers regarding head clogs and related issues, and between my own
experience and the continual feedback from others, I can say that there
is no distinct pattern regarding which category of inks is most
problematic. In other words OEM, mid priced, specialty or cheap inks
all have been shown to be both problem free and problem causing. There
is simply NO specific method for making a judgment on which ink category
will be good or bad.

For several years, I have used one brand of dye ink, which is basically
"brandless"... the box couldn't be more generic and has no address on
it, other than it was made in China. I have never had a head clog with
that ink that took more than 2 cleaning cycles to fix (and that was
rare, it usually didn't clog at all), even with printers that have sat
for weeks and months between use. On the other hand, head clogging with
Epson's own inks was more common. Epson Durabrite inks are so clog
prone in the CX all-in-one printers, that most weeks I am sending out
de-clog instructions by double digits. Yet, in general, I can literally
count on one hand the number of reports of head clogs requiring more
than a few head cleanings from printers using Epson OEM Ultrachrome
inks, over any 6 month period.

So, I am not suggesting ink doesn't make a difference, but that OEM
versus 3rd party is not where the lines get drawn.

Now, as to Measekite, I would very much look forward to seeing his
postings have reasonable and intelligent content rather than the
silliness that has gone on for at least a year now, but he is going to
have to prove he is capable of maintaining so decorum, even in the
sometimes challenging climate of a public newsgroup before I will be
convinced he has developed a new maturity. I hope this is a trend,
rather than an anomaly.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Let us all hope Measekite's new personality sticks. As to aalaan....,
if you have access to historical postings from this newsgroup, look over
Measekite's past postings, and you may wish to reconsider your original
judgement. However, if Measekite is turning over a new leaf, great, I
wouldn't fight it for a minute.

Art

 

[TJ]

Taliesyn wrote:



Maybe you should find a generic pizza. Some are quite good but the very
large groceries are almost brands in themselves but that is not the case
here. One can get store many bottles of ink in a 400 square foot
garage, develop a mediocre website using inexpensive software and have
almost no capital and bang they are a relabeler. They can even start
out having other companies prefilling their carts.

I make my own pizza. I use flour, water from my own well, yeast, etc. to
make the dough. The sauce is made from my mother's recipe using tomatoes
I grew myself. I use whatever cheese and sausage I happen to get on
sale, OEM or generic. Mixing the dough and putting on the toppings can
get messy, but no more so than other things you cook from scratch.

So am I a pizza OEM or a relabeler? Technically, I can't be a relabeler,
since I don't label my pizza. I've found that labels detract from the
taste, especially that glue that's on them. And I can't be an OEM, since
I didn't produce all the ingredients myself. The fact that I didn't
disclose the source of some of my ingredients or even what some of those
ingredients actually are makes no difference, since I've never seen a
commercial pizza labeled with where the various ingredients come from.

TJ

 

[TJ]

Let us all hope Measekite's new personality sticks. As to aalaan....,
if you have access to historical postings from this newsgroup, look over
Measekite's past postings, and you may wish to reconsider your original
judgement. However, if Measekite is turning over a new leaf, great, I
wouldn't fight it for a minute.

Art

Neither would I, but I don't think it will last. aalaan, here's just one
sample from last March...

 

[measekite]

I've told you many times I don't care which actual company makes the
ink. Same for Canon, I don't care who formulates, makes or packages
it. They won't tell me anyway if I ask. So I'm well trained from OEMs
not to ask anyone who makes the ink.

it is ok that you do not care. i do

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

I make my own pizza. I use flour, water from my own well, yeast, etc. to
make the dough. The sauce is made from my mother's recipe using tomatoes
I grew myself. I use whatever cheese and sausage I happen to get on
sale, OEM or generic. Mixing the dough and putting on the toppings can
get messy, but no more so than other things you cook from scratch.

your mother won't tell you where she got her recipe. oregano from an
unknown source will give you syphilis and cancer. Wilhelm said so.
....do not make your own pizza. it will make your oven explode.