Troll

[Richard Steinfeld]

The bottom line with our troll is this:

Don't interact with what he says. Never do this. If you want to bother
with him at all, focus only on his behavior, never, never on his subject
matter. It's important to understand his MO: how he works, what his goal is.

His intent is to provoke and disrupt. The text that he uses to
accomplish this is irrelevant. He hides behind a fake name and a fake
address: untraceable. You'll notice that he never replies about his
behavior as pointed out repeatedly by the people he provokes; his posts
show no changes at all, for example, in punctuation. His posts are attacks.

He's not much different than other trolls on the newsgroups.

Richard

 

[measekite]

The bottom line with our troll is this:

Don't interact with what he says.

a dee do

Never do this.

a dee do

 

[Tim S.]

The bottom line with our troll is this:

Don't interact with what he says. Never do this. If you want to bother
with him at all, focus only on his behavior, never, never on his subject
matter. It's important to understand his MO: how he works, what his goal
is.

His intent is to provoke and disrupt. The text that he uses to
accomplish this is irrelevant. He hides behind a fake name and a fake
address: untraceable. You'll notice that he never replies about his
behavior as pointed out repeatedly by the people he provokes; his posts
show no changes at all, for example, in punctuation. His posts are attacks.

He's not much different than other trolls on the newsgroups.

Richard


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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:20:22 GMT

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

The bottom line with our troll is this:

Don't interact with what he says. Never do this. If you want to bother
with him at all, focus only on his behavior, never, never on his
subject matter. It's important to understand his MO: how he works,
what his goal is.

His intent is to provoke and disrupt. The text that he uses to
accomplish this is irrelevant. He hides behind a fake name and a fake
address: untraceable. You'll notice that he never replies about his
behavior as pointed out repeatedly by the people he provokes; his
posts show no changes at all, for example, in punctuation. His posts
are attacks.

He's not much different than other trolls on the newsgroups.

Richard



Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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X-Complaints-To: (e-mail address removed)
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(Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:20:22 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:20:22 EDT
X-UserInfo1:
S[OGR\OGGJPKRV@ZORON^_TDFZ\@@FXLM@TDOCQDJ@_@FNHCYFWUQBKZQLYJX\_ITFD_KFVLUN[DOM_A_NSYNWPFWNS[XV\I]PZ@BQ[@CDQDPCL^FKCBIPC@KLGEZEFNMDYMKHRL_YYYGDSSODXYN@[\BK[LVTWI@AXGQCOA_SAH@TPD^\AL\RLGRFWEARBM

Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:20:22 GMT

Tim,

Please explain what you mean in English.
I've got the sense that you did something useful here, but I don't know
what it is.

Thanks.

Richard

 

[aalaan]

Well, Richard, I once would have agreed. But I have found him OK to
interact with (unless I'm not getting the point). True he does seem to
be obsessed by the evils of generic ink, but that is a valid opinion. I
think we have concluded together that the formulation of ink is
certainly important, and therefore the consistency (in both senses!) of
that. We just disagree on the point that I believe there are good
generic inks, and he believes the supplier may easily change and
therefore they're not reliable. I can live with that simple
disagreement.

 

[Ian]

I could not care what he thinks...he is just an idiot.

But I will say he has done more for refilling than anyone elso on this
forum. Very few people listen to unprofessional people and when I first
entered this forum that's what I thought of him.

 

[Burt]

Well, Richard, I once would have agreed. But I have found him OK to
interact with (unless I'm not getting the point). True he does seem to
be obsessed by the evils of generic ink, but that is a valid opinion. I
think we have concluded together that the formulation of ink is
certainly important, and therefore the consistency (in both senses!) of
that. We just disagree on the point that I believe there are good
generic inks, and he believes the supplier may easily change and
therefore they're not reliable. I can live with that simple
disagreement.

Aalaan - You haven't experienced the nearly two years of daily nonsense,
attacks, profanity, and sexual inuendo directed at participants' wives and
mothers that we've seen from the troll. He has changed his tactics and now
apears, at first glance, to be reasonable. This is probably in response to
the very large number of complaints people have sent in to his ISP. OK,
maybe he's now taking his meds, but I'm much happier to have killfiled him
and moved on. You will note that a very large percentage of of this NG is
taken up with people refuting his biased diatribe and the ensuing
back-and-forth dialogue. What is particularly amusing is that his messages
are predicated solely on bias as he has one IP4000 printer and has used only
OEM inks. The tone of his posts implies that he knows from experience the
criticisms he expresses, and his recommendations for printers is from
information he has gleaned from reading pc magazines and reviews. By
repeating what he has read (and not infrequently misquoting or
cherry-picking from articles to fit his bias) he gives the impression that
he is more knowledgeable than he really is. This is supposed to be a forum
to assist people with their printer problems and concerns. He adds nothing
but bias and confusion to the dialogue. He has also attacked very
knowledgeable people like Tony and Bob Hedrick who have years of experience
working with printers and provide great technical assistance here. He
claims that the people who report positive results with aftermarket inks are
paid by the vendors - all absolutely untrue.

 

[measekite]

Let me brief you on the history of what is going on. Richard has a
shallow viewpoint and does not really realize what went on in the past
in this ng.

In the beginning I added a Canon IP4000 to my collection of printers in
addition to my HP990 that I consider excellent. I have always used oem
ink in the HP because refilling was a messy proposition and I really did
not want used carts. I bought the Canon because it printed duplex like
my HP that I found advantages, had advanced dual paper handling. and was
a dual use photo/business printer that used separate ink tanks.

I did not consider a user replaceable print head to be an advantage
except under a warranty situation since the cost is economically
unjustified.

Originally I bought an IP3000 but returned it (never opened the box)
since there was a distinct advantage in photos when using the IP4000.

In the very beginning, after finding this NG I wanted to investigate
generic inks. I logged on to nifty forum and found it to be nothing
more than an generic ink club. I read many posts in this NG both for
and against generic inks. I found that the vast majority of people who
posted printer problems relating to fading, clogging and other ink
related problems were using generic inks.

I decided to investigate generic inks myself. I did contact a few of
the relabelers that were mentions here and found one of them to be
totally rude and unprofessional. I found another to rely totally on
ebay and paypal (they have a reputation for the spread of viruses and I
have read many articles about poor security on ebay) and to be a one and
two man show with not capital backing. I have been told by almost all
of the relabelers that they refuse to disclose who they bought their
stuff from. Some told me they were afraid their customers would buy
from their suppliers (who only sell in gallons and drums) while others
told me they do not consistently use the same supplier and it was too
much work to have different labels and boxes and did not want to change
their website. Others did not want to discuss the situation. They keep
using the word compatible.

Sensinet seems like a reputable company but did have problems with their
magenta last year and had to recall some bad ink. However they will
only sell me in gallon sizes.

I have concluded refilling is a very messy and inconvenient
proposition. The use of generic prefilled carts is even worse. They
can be filled with anything and the quality of the carts themselves vary.

PCWorld and Consumer Reports had nothing but disgust for the generic ink
market and the poor quality that they tested. This ink is most likely
representative since the few real generic formulators go under a variety
of different names. It is therefore impossible to really follow a
specific formulation in the market place to judge the performance.

In the early days that was one idiot who did not agree with me and wrote
a bunch of crap using foul language and calling me names. Then other
morons joined in resulting in a flame war. They basically formed a
church or cult and any opinion I had on anything was disparaged. I did
killfile most of them since they began to bore me. Then this guy
Richard joined the church and became the latest mouthpiece for the
church. In some ways I do not think he his new since he lived and talks
like one of the other cultists.

So now you have it. This is what I would like to see happen. Sensinet,
Dyson, and Pantone currently mfg and formulate their own non oem ink.
Dyson sticks primarily to Epson pigmented ink. Pantone is very
expensive and stick to materials for artists. Sensinet does sell to
some relabelers. I do not know how good Sensinet is and no relabeler
that I know of sells any prefilled carts with Sensinet ink and the fact
that the relabelers do change suppliers it is difficult even in this
case to follow their performance in the market.

I think that a fair price for a Canon OEM cart should be around $6.50.
It would be nice to have the 3 formulators sell prefilled carts under
their own labels and packaging for about $5.00 or less. That would be a
fair price. Then Canon (might be OK) may raise the price of their
standard format printers $50.00 and possible supply print heads for less
than $40.00 in the event they are needed. Also I think that the
printers should have user replaceable waste pads.

So now you have it. I do not understand why the cult resents me
expressing my own opinion. I really do not care what they say and I do
not care if they want to risk their printers. It is also known that if
you print a great deal then the ink has less of a tendency to dry out in
the head and you will probably get enough mileage out of a printhead to
replace it. But at the price of printers today you can get a printhead
and a set of oem ink by buying a new printer for less than the sum of
its parts.

Sorry this is so long but I feel that you deserve an answer.

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

To rephrase Burt's reply (short form):
1. The troll's signal-to-noise ratio isn't worth the effort of sifting
through the haystack to find the needle. The hay rotted a long time ago;
it stinks.
2. His behavior is antisocial as well as antisocial.
3. He gets off on this antisocial behavior; he lives for it:

Do not feed the troll.

Richard

 

[Burt]

To rephrase Burt's reply (short form):
1. The troll's signal-to-noise ratio isn't worth the effort of sifting
through the haystack to find the needle. The hay rotted a long time ago;
it stinks.
2. His behavior is antisocial as well as antisocial.
3. He gets off on this antisocial behavior; he lives for it:

Do not feed the troll.

Richard

Well stated. I've always used a thousand words when ten would do. Thanks
for reducing it to the essence. To continue that theme I can reduce it to
one (or is it two) word: KILLFILE

 

[aalaan]

OK, I'd like to thank Measekite *and* all the antis for taking such
trouble to put their points forward. Both sides sound eminently
reasonable, but I think Measekite has the edge. I am new here; I guess
I'll soon find out who is right. Meanwhile, to a person with an open
mind and now no interest in generic inks, Measekite's post seems not
unreasonable. If indeed he is a troll I guess I'll soon find out because
trollity is not easily hideable for long! As to profanity, this goiup
is pretty free of that. SDome grouops have members who are absolutely
incapable of expresing themselves without copious F words. Thus the
posters obscure their thrust. This group is far more civilised. Thanks
again all. I say again, thank goodness I'm away from the whole inkjet
thing - I'm sure we all agree that carts are way too expensive.!

 

[Hendo]

Let me brief you on the history of what is going on. Richard has a
shallow viewpoint and does not really realize what went on in the past
in this ng.

In the beginning I added a Canon IP4000 to my collection of printers in
addition to my HP990 that I consider excellent. I have always used oem
ink in the HP because refilling was a messy proposition and I really did
not want used carts. I bought the Canon because it printed duplex like
my HP that I found advantages, had advanced dual paper handling. and was
a dual use photo/business printer that used separate ink tanks.

I did not consider a user replaceable print head to be an advantage
except under a warranty situation since the cost is economically
unjustified.

Originally I bought an IP3000 but returned it (never opened the box)
since there was a distinct advantage in photos when using the IP4000.

In the very beginning, after finding this NG I wanted to investigate
generic inks. I logged on to nifty forum and found it to be nothing
more than an generic ink club. I read many posts in this NG both for
and against generic inks. I found that the vast majority of people who
posted printer problems relating to fading, clogging and other ink
related problems were using generic inks.

I decided to investigate generic inks myself. I did contact a few of
the relabelers that were mentions here and found one of them to be
totally rude and unprofessional.

When I read your post I found you to be rude and unprofessional. I have
never taken your post serious because of that.

I found another to rely totally on
ebay and paypal (they have a reputation for the spread of viruses and I
have read many articles about poor security on ebay) and to be a one and
two man show with not capital backing. I have been told by almost all
of the relabelers that they refuse to disclose who they bought their
stuff from. Some told me they were afraid their customers would buy
from their suppliers (who only sell in gallons and drums) while others
told me they do not consistently use the same supplier and it was too
much work to have different labels and boxes and did not want to change
their website. Others did not want to discuss the situation. They keep
using the word compatible.

Sensinet seems like a reputable company but did have problems with their
magenta last year and had to recall some bad ink. However they will
only sell me in gallon sizes.

Even the OEM has problems with thier inks. Epson has problems with
thier DuraBright inks.

I have concluded refilling is a very messy and inconvenient
proposition. The use of generic prefilled carts is even worse. They
can be filled with anything and the quality of the carts themselves vary.

It's not that messy. You are correct that prefilled carts can be filled
with anything. I refill my own carts.

PCWorld and Consumer Reports had nothing but disgust for the generic ink
market and the poor quality that they tested.

They did not test specific aftermarket ink manufacturers, just
prefilled carts.

This ink is most likely
representative since the few real generic formulators go under a variety
of different names. It is therefore impossible to really follow a
specific formulation in the market place to judge the performance.

In the early days that was one idiot who did not agree with me and wrote
a bunch of crap using foul language and calling me names. Then other
morons joined in resulting in a flame war. They basically formed a
church or cult and any opinion I had on anything was disparaged. I did
killfile most of them since they began to bore me. Then this guy
Richard joined the church and became the latest mouthpiece for the
church. In some ways I do not think he his new since he lived and talks
like one of the other cultists.

So now you have it. This is what I would like to see happen. Sensinet,
Dyson, and Pantone currently mfg and formulate their own non oem ink.
Dyson sticks primarily to Epson pigmented ink. Pantone is very
expensive and stick to materials for artists. Sensinet does sell to
some relabelers. I do not know how good Sensinet is and no relabeler
that I know of sells any prefilled carts with Sensinet ink and the fact
that the relabelers do change suppliers it is difficult even in this
case to follow their performance in the market.

I think that a fair price for a Canon OEM cart should be around $6.50.
It would be nice to have the 3 formulators sell prefilled carts under
their own labels and packaging for about $5.00 or less. That would be a
fair price. Then Canon (might be OK) may raise the price of their
standard format printers $50.00 and possible supply print heads for less
than $40.00 in the event they are needed. Also I think that the
printers should have user replaceable waste pads.

So now you have it. I do not understand why the cult resents me
expressing my own opinion.

It's the way you express your opinion. Unprofessional, rude and
ungrounded. You talk as if a person does not follow you than they are
an idiot.

I really do not care what they say and I do
not care if they want to risk their printers. It is also known that if
you print a great deal then the ink has less of a tendency to dry out in
the head and you will probably get enough mileage out of a printhead to
replace it. But at the price of printers today you can get a printhead
and a set of oem ink by buying a new printer for less than the sum of
its parts.

Sorry this is so long but I feel that you deserve an answer.

I hope this is a new begining for you, as you have a wealth of
knowledge on OEM inks and can provide valuable information to those who
need it.

 

[TJ]

OK, I'd like to thank Measekite *and* all the antis for taking such
trouble to put their points forward. Both sides sound eminently
reasonable, but I think Measekite has the edge. I am new here; I guess
I'll soon find out who is right. Meanwhile, to a person with an open
mind and now no interest in generic inks, Measekite's post seems not
unreasonable. If indeed he is a troll I guess I'll soon find out because
trollity is not easily hideable for long! As to profanity, this goiup
is pretty free of that. SDome grouops have members who are absolutely
incapable of expresing themselves without copious F words. Thus the
posters obscure their thrust. This group is far more civilised. Thanks
again all. I say again, thank goodness I'm away from the whole inkjet
thing - I'm sure we all agree that carts are way too expensive.!

This was the most reasonable-sounding post I have ever seen Measekite
put here. If he were to post like this all the time, he'd have many
fewer detractors. He is certainly entitled to his opinion, as I and the
rest of the newsgroup are entitled to ours. I don't care if he tells me
I'm flat-out wrong in my assertions, but when he calls me a liar -
repeatedly - when I detail my own experience, I get a bit upset. I admit
I don't know much about ink, but I DO know what has worked for me.

TJ

 

[zakezuke]

OK, I'd like to thank Measekite *and* all the antis for taking such
trouble to put their points forward. Both sides sound eminently
reasonable, but I think Measekite has the edge. I am new here; I guess
I'll soon find out who is right.

This issue with measekite is the following

1. He's a troll, he specificly goes out his way to provoke others, he
for example spent a year typing in all caps just to annoy others, and
finally had to be told by his ISP to stop or have his access revoked.
[
http://groups.google.com/groups/pro...ADEx8x8Ar5cT9MycNaTjCAv8rhlH0Pnl47z4AZhN98BFg
]
2. He lies.
3. Those who use aftermarket inks and share a good experence with any
given brand, he goes out of his way to harass.

This was a semi-reasonable Measekite post. He tends to put words into
the mouths of PcWorld and Consumer reports who, I agree, tested some
inks and found them to be of poor quality, but others they tested which
were compairable. None of what they tested was as lightfast as OEM,
this is fair comment. He's fully aware that Lyson at least makes their
own cartridges under their own name, and in the past has commented on
the fact that they are a poor choice because they cost as much as OEM.
He's 100% aware that Formulabs released ink for the new canons / asian
market canons (bci-7) which some company bought and sold for the older
ones (bci-6), which did affect the output. It's rather like if you
were to put bci-6 tanks in a i550, a lack of contrast and a shift tward
the cyan.

The problem isn't the opinion... i'm all for a valid opinion.
Aftermarket ink isn't for everyone. There are good brands, and there
are bad brands. In bulk ink it's rather easy to pick a manufacturer
which has a very good reputation and pick a dealer of that ink. This
is not a problem, though you will get a better price going with someone
who won't disclose where they bought the ink from. This is harder with
pre-filled cartridges but not impossible. Again Measekite has been
shown and has acknowledged this fact, but turns around days later and
lies about it.

Even worse he has turned this into a some sort of war, any aftermarket
user is part of some church. Or, people who talk about their experence
with aftermarket ink must paid some company who sells it. This is flat
out delusional. I use aftermarket ink, I have direct experence with
MIS (www.inksupply.com) and am going out of my way to use Hobbicolors
because they are one of the few companies I know of that are selling
the ink for the new canons. MIS is an offical distributor of
"Image-Specalists" ink, a fact disclosed by "Image-specalists". I can
say I have used 13 sets of cartridges in my ip3000 before experencing
any issues (836 discs, covers, documents), and that issue was light
banding on the black followed by gasket failure on the head, which I
would associate this failure with not using the printer for weeks
because I bought another one. Canon replaced the head free of charge
as well as the one on my mp760 which used only OEM ink and had much
more serious banding, which I again associate with lack of use of text
mode. I share this information so someone interested can see that
"Image-Specalists" for example worked well, and even if the banding was
a result of the ink, I saved over $350 using it. Someone can take this
info a decide for example

a) 13 cartriages, 836 discs? $60 bucks? Save $350, i'll do it
b) 13 cartridges? Only a year? I'll stick with OEM.

This is a choice anyone can make, either one perfectly acceptable.
However anyone who doesn't agree with Measekite is not only called
stupid, but is harassed till the end of time.

And if you review the google history, you'll see well over 8000
messages over the past year, with some great gems like "NOW NOW FRANKIE
CRANKIE DA LOW LIFE COCKROACH " "YA ALL NOW CAN SEE THAT PECKERBLOOMER
IS AN IDIOT. "

Don't take my word for it, look for your self.

 

[Taliesyn]

I have concluded refilling is a very messy and inconvenient
proposition.

A reflex action vacant conclusion based on never having refilled
anything in your life. Do you always base all your conclusions on the
odd post where someone has had some problems. Obviously someone didn't
follow elementary-my-dear-Watson instructions. Or do you take into
consideration the vast majority of successful refillers too? No.

Did it ever occur to you to include my experiences with refilling. It's
so damn easy that it makes your posts hilarious to read!!!! Continue
your trolling ways. You're reputation is safe.

As for me "joining a churchie group", well, that's just you and your
absolute hatred of those who refill and find it economical, well worth
it, and not messy in the least bit. If any of those factors were false -
why on earth would we do it?!@# We don't need aggravation any more than
you do. I don't know how others refill, but I don't use gloves, catch
tray or any other safety device. If I felt I needed to use them, then
I'd be using them!

-Taliesyn

 

[measekite]

measekite wrote:



When I read your post I found you to be rude and unprofessional. I have
never taken your post serious because of that.




Even the OEM has problems with thier inks. Epson has problems with
thier DuraBright inks.

the entire printing system (c series printers and the durabrite inks)
are basically a poor design. but in its defense they should only be
used in small businesses where the printing is moderate to heavy and the
because of high usage the ink does not dry out in the head. that said a
better choice for this environment would be either a b/w or color laser.

It's not that messy. You are correct that prefilled carts can be filled
with anything. I refill my own carts.

it is messy. some say eating chicken or ribs is messy and others do
not. there have been posts in this ng about how to clean the ink off of
carpets. it is messy. it is inconvenient. you have to wash neddles
and it take the focus off doing business.

imagine an office where workers are going around with needles refilling
printers instead of doing their job. they should be fired.

They did not test specific aftermarket ink manufacturers, just
prefilled carts.

you do not know what they tested cause the relabelers wont say and if
they told them they did not publish it.

It's the way you express your opinion. Unprofessional, rude and
ungrounded. You talk as if a person does not follow you than they are
an idiot.

some are and some are not.

 

[measekite]

i go to the dealer to have my oil changed. not mess no fuss and it
takes about an hour. a person like you who may change their own oil may
spend half an hour, have more mess, have to environmentally dispose of
the oil etc. your cost is about $15.00 for the oil and filter and mine
is about $25.00. what did you really save after spending gas going
somewhere to dispose of your oil.

you are a kid as you have stated and like to tinker with everything.
others have ruined carpets and have had ink all over.

there are people who have never broken a glass and others have. there
are people who never had a car accident but that does not mean they
never would. and only the stupid would not have car insurance.

 

[Taliesyn]

i go to the dealer to have my oil changed.

Go for it. So would I.

But in your usual manner of avoiding truth and facts, you have turned to
oil and cars. Why not cars and fast women? Try to stay on topic, if you
can.

In your typically unashamed arrogance you simply will not admit that
many people here find refilling economical, well worth it, safe for the
printer, and not messy. What's wrong, such a thing cannot exist in your
tiny misinformed world? Continue to ignore the truth, post lies and
misinformation, ridicule people, and you get what you rightfully deserve
- the troll label.

When you finally admit that some people find refilling works perfectly
for them, then at last your posts will have some balance and not just
the total misinformation you have presented before.

-Taliesyn

 

[zakezuke]

i go to the dealer to have my oil changed. not mess no fuss and it
takes about an hour.

I change my own oil. I buy Castrol oil by the crate, typcialy at
schucks. When it's on sale for $1.30 i'm happy, that's sort of the buy
oil now price, but as of late it's over $2.30/quart. The last batch I
believe I spent $1.80/quart. I spend under $15 usually

I do it my self because it saves time and even the dealer tends to
torque the bolt and filter too tightly, plus the fact I can examine the
oil and anything else. A dealer is further away than a Jiffy Lube, and
Jiffy Lube you may have to stand in line. If I need to I can do it in
under an hour.

a person like you who may change their own oil may
spend half an hour, have more mess, have to environmentally dispose of
the oil etc. your cost is about $15.00 for the oil and filter and mine
is about $25.00. what did you really save after spending gas going
somewhere to dispose of your oil.

I just take it back to where ever I bought the the oil... all parts
shops where I live have offical oil disposal. I put my oil in a 5 gal
jug and only do this once a year. Other cities might require you to go
to the city dump and pay a disposal fee. For me it's 7 blocks.

I respect anyone who makes the choice for someone to do it for them.
There are a ton of reasons to pay someone to do it, and the fee is not
spendy. I however am a control freak about the issue and simply do it
my self, it's not about the money. But since you asked I save $5.00 to
$10.00 each change, and alot of headaches when I see an issue such as a
cracked CV boot. I *really* save $5.00 to $10.00 as I only dump the
oil once a year, where you "drive" to get it changed.

 

[zakezuke]

imagine an office where workers are going around with needles refilling
printers instead of doing their job. they should be fired.

Copiers and some lasers at one time required you manualy dump toner
into them, which could be messy, but you needed to print to do your
job. So people would dump pints of black powder in the right spot on
the printer. And old Lithograph was a royal pain but this was
something small businesses used to publish flyers.

Now I think it's nutty to refill consumer inkjets at the work place,
but i've seen it done. This is the point where a CIS system would be
ideal. Schools are the most likely place to see this process. Now
"I" would invest in a business jet my self to avoid all this "running
around with needles" but what I believe and what others choose to do
are very different things.

1. You can always wear a glove.
2. You can use rubber caps
3. You can have a needle on a bottle
4. You save 70% to 90%, a home user saves hundrads, a small business
saves thousands.

If you have to ask why again see #4. As you said, a home user saves so
much they can have a pizza once a month and send their kid to prom. A
small business of 10 to 20 people can save enough to buy a Toyota.