Simtel strangeness

[john p.]

Thanks John. I've always been puzzled why people ask for messages to be
reposted. I figure...why don't they just re-download the missing thread?
While I knew OE didn't have that capability, I had assumed major news
readers like Agent would. So this clears things up. We'll just have to
repost for people who aren't using Xnews. Though I'd like to think some of
the other news readers - like Super Gravity or Dialog - have this feature.
Maybe somebody reading this will respond...

Assuming your news server has decent retention, you can ask Agent to
"Sample Headers From Selected Groups". You then specify the number of
headers to retrieve, or the number of past days for which you want the
headers. Agent will then get the headers, even if it has previously
marked them as read. The problem is that you get *all* headers, not
just the thread you are interested in. In a busy group, even if you
only ask for the past three or four days, you can get thousands of
headers to wade through, most of which you have already seen. On the
other hand, if you limit the number to, say, 500 headers, you take the
chance that you will miss some that you want. Not a great workaround,
unfortunately.

 

[jason]

john p. wrote in

Assuming your news server has decent retention, you can ask Agent to
"Sample Headers From Selected Groups". You then specify the number of
headers to retrieve, or the number of past days for which you want the
headers. Agent will then get the headers, even if it has previously
marked them as read. The problem is that you get *all* headers, not
just the thread you are interested in. In a busy group, even if you
only ask for the past three or four days, you can get thousands of
headers to wade through, most of which you have already seen. On the
other hand, if you limit the number to, say, 500 headers, you take the
chance that you will miss some that you want. Not a great workaround,
unfortunately.

Yep, not a realistic workaround at all...And omega described another
time-consuming method. I'd guess very few would go to those efforts to
retrieve a missing message. With Xnews, it's just so damn easy!....just a
simple click...You get ONLY messages in that thread, so there's no
"search" problem, no cluttering up your message pane, etc. I use that
feature so much, I'd be lost without it. I wish you the best of luck in
getting that feature added to Agent.

 

[omega]

john p.:

[On using Agent to retrieve all previous messages from a subject/thread,
beyond those available from the References: chain]

Assuming your news server has decent retention, you can ask Agent to
"Sample Headers From Selected Groups". You then specify the number of
headers to retrieve, or the number of past days for which you want the
headers. Agent will then get the headers, even if it has previously
marked them as read. The problem is that you get *all* headers, not
just the thread you are interested in.

[...]
Or use a different instance, and set two filters. One to keep Subject: xxx;
and one to kill *. Then import into your normal instance. Not pleasant or
pretty, either way.

Luckily when need arises for backtrack to unkept messages, it usually turns
out the References: line gives me enough that I need. And then supplement
with Google if there are also a few strays under a subject.

You mentioned, John, asking the Agent folks to include a "reconstruct thread"
feature in the next release. Any guess on the chances?

 

[omega]

Yep, not a realistic workaround at all...And omega described another
time-consuming method. I'd guess very few would go to those efforts to
retrieve a missing message. With Xnews, it's just so damn easy!....just a
simple click...You get ONLY messages in that thread, so there's no
"search" problem, no cluttering up your message pane, etc. I use that
feature so much, I'd be lost without it. I wish you the best of luck in
getting that feature added to Agent.

Jason! It is not polite to gloat. <g>

 

[omega]

I'd guess very few would go to those efforts to
retrieve a missing message. With Xnews, it's just so damn easy!

[...]
Not always easy enough.... There was a thread, back in the Spring, where
you kept getting attacked for some opinion you'd never stated, due to
that Xnews attacker being persistent about confusing something that someone
else in the thread said, and claiming, from air, that it was your words. I
can't even remember the subject, but you might (general hint: beady-eyed
fish). So evidently XNews is still lacking. In not having its "reconstruct
thread" command appearing in like a flashing red clickme color.

 

[jason]

I'd guess very few would go to those efforts to
retrieve a missing message. With Xnews, it's just so damn easy!

[...]
Not always easy enough.... There was a thread, back in the Spring,
where you kept getting attacked for some opinion you'd never stated,
due to that Xnews attacker being persistent about confusing something
that someone else in the thread said, and claiming, from air, that it
was your words. I can't even remember the subject, but you might
(general hint: beady-eyed fish). So evidently XNews is still lacking.
In not having its "reconstruct thread" command appearing in like a
flashing red clickme color.

???

The only weird thing I've experienced in this newsgroup was a "regular"
calling me a sock puppet! I stated an opinion that I guess was a little
out of character, and was christened an imposter.

But I don't understand what you're saying here. All that "Reconstruct
Thread" does is call up previous posts. No rocket science involved. The
only wrinkle I could see is if a server just didn't get a particular
post.

 

[omega]

Not always easy enough.... There was a thread, back in the Spring,

[...]

???

I just looked it up. I don't have MIDs because of having saved messages once
with truncated headers - but my ref was "Special Purpose Notepad" in early
Feb 03. The poster was not reading the thread, but going by (wrong) memory
on who said what. So my only point was that "reconstruct thread" is great -
but takes also the poster willing to use it.

The only weird thing I've experienced in this newsgroup was a "regular"
calling me a sock puppet! I stated an opinion that I guess was a little
out of character, and was christened an imposter.

Cool! Too bad I missed that one. Paranoids with active imaginations tend to
come up with some fun stories about the monsters under their beds. <g>

.. . .

But I don't understand what you're saying here. All that "Reconstruct
Thread" does is call up previous posts. No rocket science involved.

That it also requires to actually be willing to read. (But I don't want to
over-emphasize that _too_ much, or I'll get into glass/houses stones. 8-o
Since there occur regular times where I don't read something adequately the
first time around.)

The only wrinkle I could see is if a server just didn't get a particular
post.

The Berlin server sure is great on that count. The only posts it misses are
those from the garbage dump: spam, attachments, worms.

 

[John Fitzsimons]

No, John F. is misinterpreting the question. Clicking on "Thread" in
Agent simply organizes the existing message headers in thread order,
it does not re-download missing threads. This is a feature I have
requested previously from Forte in the wish list for Agent 2.0.

One can get only the relevant posts in Agent. Show the full headers of
the first post in the thread you have. If it isn't the actual first
post then click on a previous message ID to get it. Agent will first
look for it on your system and if it doesn't succeed ask you if you
want to get it from the server. You can then get it if it is still on
there. Very handy if one accidentally deletes a post.

Regards, John.

--
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v http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/

 

[John Fitzsimons]

I'm not sure I understand your answer. If you click on Thread", that
brings up all the posts to date in that thread?

I'm not sure I understand your comment. If the first column says
"thread" then posts are already displayed in threads. No need for any
more clicking.

Of course you will only see the posts that you have downloaded and
not deleted. You can get anything deleted again by re-downloading.

Regards, John.

--
****************************************************
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/ Oz \ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
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v http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/

 

[omega]

One can get only the relevant posts in Agent. Show the full headers of
the first post in the thread you have. If it isn't the actual first
post then click on a previous message ID to get it.

[...]
The headers display is an area where Agent excels. Single keystroke to toggle
between full headers, and custom short headers (the latter can be defined
however is preferred), as part of the message. I've seen readers that were
total horror shows with regards to headers. OE for example. At least back
when I looked (a few yrs ago), that thing made the whole process really
absurd - took about five clicks to even get there, and the result had the
headers stupidly out stranded in a separate window.

 

[john p.]

john p.:

[On using Agent to retrieve all previous messages from a subject/thread,
beyond those available from the References: chain]

Assuming your news server has decent retention, you can ask Agent to
"Sample Headers From Selected Groups". You then specify the number of
headers to retrieve, or the number of past days for which you want the
headers. Agent will then get the headers, even if it has previously
marked them as read. The problem is that you get *all* headers, not
just the thread you are interested in.

[...]
Or use a different instance, and set two filters. One to keep Subject: xxx;
and one to kill *. Then import into your normal instance. Not pleasant or
pretty, either way.

I've even gone so far as to use a different instance of Agent and a
different *server*. Which brings up the deficiency in Agent being able
to use different servers to begin with. This one is *definitely* going
to be fixed in 2.0.

You mentioned, John, asking the Agent folks to include a "reconstruct thread"
feature in the next release. Any guess on the chances?

I'm very hopeful. I know they read the suggestion, because they
invited me to be a beta tester of their new news service as a result.
(Oops, I wasn't supposed to tell, but I think the beta testing is
pretty much done anyway).

 

[Nevans]

john p. wrote in

Thanks John. I've always been puzzled why people ask for messages to be
reposted. I figure...why don't they just re-download the missing thread?
While I knew OE didn't have that capability, I had assumed major news
readers like Agent would. So this clears things up. We'll just have to
repost for people who aren't using Xnews. Though I'd like to think some of
the other news readers - like Super Gravity or Dialog - have this feature.
Maybe somebody reading this will respond...

40tude Dialog has a "Reconstruct thread" function under its Online
options. I have it mapped to my "R" key and use it on a very regular
basis. I asked in xananews.support awhile back whether this feature was
available in XanaNews and the author said that he would add it to his
newsreader; I haven't looked at the latest version of XanaNews yet so
maybe it's there now.

Nevans

 

[omega]

john p.:

I'm very hopeful. I know they read the suggestion, because they
invited me to be a beta tester of their new news service as a result.

Good news you report on the improvements we should see.

(Oops, I wasn't supposed to tell, but I think the beta testing is
pretty much done anyway).

Well, John F has been posting with v2.0. I think for purposes of making some
of the rest of us jealous. <g>

 

[john p.]

One can get only the relevant posts in Agent. Show the full headers of
the first post in the thread you have. If it isn't the actual first
post then click on a previous message ID to get it.

[...]
The headers display is an area where Agent excels. Single keystroke to toggle
between full headers, and custom short headers (the latter can be defined
however is preferred), as part of the message. I've seen readers that were
total horror shows with regards to headers. OE for example. At least back
when I looked (a few yrs ago), that thing made the whole process really
absurd - took about five clicks to even get there, and the result had the
headers stupidly out stranded in a separate window.

Hey, what the heck was the original topic of *this* thread anyway? <G>

 

[jason]

The headers display is an area where Agent excels. Single keystroke to
toggle between full headers, and custom short headers (the latter can
be defined however is preferred), as part of the message.

That's how Xnews works too. Even Pimmy has a one-click toggle, though you
can't customize the headers. But that is NOTHING compared to Reconstruct
Thread!!

 

[jason]

john p. wrote in

Hey, what the heck was the original topic of *this* thread anyway? <G>

Yeah, my bad. I had a chance to mark it OT, but I thought it was an
important enough topic that EVERYONE should read. I know...selfish.

 

[jason]

I'm not sure I understand your comment. If the first column says
"thread" then posts are already displayed in threads. No need for any
more clicking.

Okay, the issue here wasn't displaying posts in a thread format...it was
displaying ALL posts in a thread...to pick up posts missed the first time
around. That happens to me all the time. I start reading in the middle
of a thread and want to pick up all the previous posts So I
"reconstruct" the thread to get the previous posts. In the example
here, I posted a Proxomitron filter, and the guy didn't catch that
original post. He entered the thread a few posts later, and so requested
a repost. If Agent supported Reconstruct Thread, he could have just
"pushed a button" so to speak, and gotten my original post.

Of course you will only see the posts that you have downloaded and
not deleted. You can get anything deleted again by re-downloading.

I think this is being confused by the issue of online vs offline
newsreaders. I was talking about downloading the missing posts from the
server. The concept of "deleting" a post is foreign to me...since they
continue to reside on the server. Again, I'm speaking from the POV as an
online newsreader user...

 

[Susan Bugher]

john p. wrote in




Yeah, my bad. I had a chance to mark it OT, but I thought it was an
important enough topic that EVERYONE should read. I know...selfish.

Well, as the OP I feel it's only fair to note that you were the *one*
person who posted a response to my question . . .

my post and your response were on-topic . . .

after that the thread took on a life of its own . . .

Susan
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PL2004 Review: http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/2004nominationsPL.php
alt.comp.freeware FAQ (short) - maintained by John F.
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html

 

[jason]

jason <[email protected]>:

I'd guess very few would go to those efforts to
retrieve a missing message. With Xnews, it's just so damn easy!

Not always easy enough.... There was a thread, back in the Spring,

[...]

???

I just looked it up. I don't have MIDs because of having saved
messages once with truncated headers - but my ref was "Special Purpose
Notepad" in early Feb 03. The poster was not reading the thread, but
going by (wrong) memory on who said what. So my only point was that
"reconstruct thread" is great - but takes also the poster willing to
use it.

Oh right. I remember that. But I'm not talking about winning petty
arguments ;-) ...which in fact, never seem petty at the time :-( ...I'm
talking about honest purposes...like retrieving an informative post
missed the first time around. People who *want* the information, and
know the capabilities of their newsreader, are likely to use the option
if they have it.

 

[omega]

john p. wrote in


Yeah, my bad. I had a chance to mark it OT, but I thought it was an
important enough topic that EVERYONE should read. I know...selfish.

It was comparing features of news readers, so not OT. Agent might be
payware - however, it was newsreader features being compared, with freeware
such as Xnews an integral part of the topic.

It did occur to me, as well, about all these posts that have nothing to do
with Simtel. But I liked that idea. That a subject header concerning Simtel
being screwed up would, at a Google glance, have appeared to caused a large
flurry of discussion. (Not that the Simtel people care, though; they seeem
to take malignant pleasure in their incompetence.)