Shameful CPU Pricing

[Robert Myers]

Chairman Mao proposed a similar theory as you're expressing here.
Chairman Mao believed that essentially 95% of the people were
"good", meaning inherently altruistic, and 5% of the people were
inherently "bad", meaning greedy and thus incompatible with the
ideals of communism. Chairman Mao believed that you just had to
kill the 5% of the "bad" people, and the rest of the "good" people
can form an ideal communist system.

Unfortunately, Chairman Mao's theories were put into practice,
and millions of people were killed.

But not all theories that sound crazy are crazy

http://www.jsonline.com/alive/news/apr04/223117.asp

A friend of mine and I actually talked about processor development
in terms of the capitalist/communist system.

In terms of a communist system, the central planning commision
dictated that this year, Intel's fabs will produce 70 million 80386
processors, and AMD will produce 30 million 80386 processors.
There is no need to produce faster processors, GUI's or GPU's.
Playing games is not productive to the greater glory of the state.

The price of each processor has been set at $40. Next year, the
production quota will be increased by 5%, and costs will be reduced
by 10%. Finally, the engineer that designed the faulty multiplier in
the 80387 MathCo has been determined to be an enemy of the state,
and he will be shot as a warning to all sabateurs.

Of course, your correspondent here has to be very young even to have
made such comments. Did any of us who paid for (or authorized payment
for) time on an IBM 360 ever expect computing to be so ubiquitous or so
inexpensive? Never mind the CPU. Did anyone who struggled to fill a
frame buffer, which itself cost a fortune, ever expect commodity
graphics cards to pump out high-resolution frames in real time?

No, a computer hardware list is not the place to be probing the
weaknesses of capitalism.

RM

 

[Alan Walpool]

Ed> Just history repeating itself,Ed> 06/30/1997 Intel Pentium Pro® processor 200Mhz-512k $1055.00
Ed> Intel Pentium® ll processor 266/512k (Box) $865.00

Ed> Their now $8.00 with free S&H. ;p

Wow! Talk about a price drop ;-)). From $1,000.00 to $8.00. Anyway
wait long enough and you probably can get what you want for free ;-)).
At least with CPU's.

Later,

Alan

 

[Tony Hill]

Part Number: MB-EPIA-800
Regular price: $109.00
On Sale: $105.00

Are these US dollars?!?

ASRock and Asus (to name a few) sell Socket-A MicroATX motherboards with
integrated graphics.

e.g. http://www.asrockamerica.com/Products/K7S41.htm

Pair such a board with a Sempron 2200.

ASRock K7S41 = 38 EUR
Sempron 2200 = 42 EUR

AFAICT, this system will murder the C3-based system, and it's cheaper.

The original poster wanted a system that was made by a non-American
company. As such, with only 4 companies producing x86 CPUs and three
of them being in the US, I thought he might prefer the underperforming
VIA solution!

You are quite correct though, the Sempron/ASRock solution would be
significantly faster than the VIA solution. On the flip side, the VIA
board is a nifty little Mini-ITX design, about 1/4 the size of the
ASRock board.

 

[HMS Beagle]

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80829&ps=ho3

Is this suppose to make sense to customers? Nearly a grand for a single
processor? Is this some sort of joke?

No its not a joke at all. The CPU you pointed out there has the
following features not seen in regular CPUs:

1. It has 2 MBs of cache right on the chip. (a cheap celeron might
have 512K, but probably has 256K, or even less)

2. It can run on motherboards that have more than one CPU. (a cheap
celeron cannot)

3. 3.8 GHz is unheard of. Only the cream of cut circuits can run
stable at this speed. This CPUs physical circuitry is nearly perfect
in terms manufacturing flaws.

On the other hand, the 800Mhz FSB seems slow to me. If I'm going to
pay a grand for a CPU im going to get one that can run with a 2.0 GHz
front side bus. And yes, they have those now.

 

[aether]

The industry is price gouging. That processor
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819116203) should
be priced at $500, tops. This is done, as I said, explicitly for profit
-- and it's worsening. It'd be a wonderful day, if such people as are
responsible for this (see: international bankers, wall street tycoons,
scumbag shareholders, prick CEO's and CFO's such as Kozlowski and Mark
Swartz, etc..) were rounded up and hanged.

 

[Grumble]

You are quite correct though, the Sempron/ASRock solution would be
significantly faster than the VIA solution. On the flip side, the VIA
board is a nifty little Mini-ITX design, about 1/4 the size of the
ASRock board.

K7S41 = 9.6" x 7.8" = 483 cm^2
EPIA-800 = 17 x 17 = 289 cm^2

Actually, the K7S41 is "only" 70% bigger than the EPIA-800 ;-)

 

[GSV Three Minds in a Can]

The industry is price gouging. That processor
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819116203) should
be priced at $500, tops. This is done, as I said, explicitly for profit

Welcome to planet Earth. This is not unique to the CPU industry -
stupid consumers who insist on having 'the best X ever made', whether
it's a car, watch, jacket, or meal at a restaurant =ALWAYS= get gouged
on price. Or did you think a Maserati was really worth 100x more than a
Fiat, and that $10k bottles of wine actually taste that good???

Get over it already, and buy what you need, instead of the most
expensive you can find on paper (which is probably not actually
available anyway).

-- and it's worsening. It'd be a wonderful day, if such people as are
responsible for this (see: international bankers, wall street tycoons,
scumbag shareholders, prick CEO's and CFO's such as Kozlowski and Mark
Swartz, etc..) were rounded up and hanged.

Then nobody could afford to buy $1000+ CPUs and Maseratis I guess? So
that's your solution to the problem then is it?? Personally I'd suggest
you leave planet Earth for somewhere you'll be less disappointed. Triton
is nice, this time of year..

 

[David Wang]

But not all theories that sound crazy are crazy

http://www.jsonline.com/alive/news/apr04/223117.asp

I believe that you may have missed the point entirely.

It matters little whether or not Chairman Mao's theory,
or any such social theory is crazy.

Chairman Mao may well be right, and upon elmination of the
"bad" people, society would be much better. The problem is,
as always, in the implementation of the social theory.

The implementation of any such social theory require the
deployment of state terror to selectively eliminate those
deemed to be "bad" or "undesirable".

While Chairman Mao's immediate focus may be the "greedy"
folks, the next batch of people could well be "the perverse",
all pornographers, sexual deviants, homosexuals, etc.

While we're doing the cleanup, let us eliminate the need for
jails altogether. A society without crime can be well
achievable when all criminals are immediately disposed of.

After that, perhaps we can work to elminate SPAM. I can assure
you that General Abacha's son will soon stop sending you
solicitations to help him move that $30M out of Nigeria,
and you'll never have to read about the wonders of Cia|is
(unless you explicitely choose to).

Soon, the ideal society can be reached, provided that enough
people have been eliminated along the way.

Of course, your correspondent here has to be very young even to have
made such comments. Did any of us who paid for (or authorized payment
for) time on an IBM 360 ever expect computing to be so ubiquitous or so
inexpensive? Never mind the CPU. Did anyone who struggled to fill a
frame buffer, which itself cost a fortune, ever expect commodity
graphics cards to pump out high-resolution frames in real time?

No, a computer hardware list is not the place to be probing the
weaknesses of capitalism.

Fortunately "my correspondent" does not realize that there's a
more authoritative indicator of Intel's greed.

http://www.intel.com/intel/finance/pricelist/

3.33 GHz Xeon with 8 MB L3 sells for $3,692, and a piddly
1.6 GHz Itanium with 9 MB of L3 sells for $4,227.

IIRC, AMD is no better in that regard. It apparently wants ~$3000
for the top-of-the-line Opteron.

Nevermind IBM. imagine how much IBM would want just for one POWER5
processor, or a G6 processor module.




Chairman Wang is tired of this thread. Chairman Wang has dictated
that anyone that complains about the exhorbant prices of high end
processors to be shot immediately. Chairman Wang believes that no
further time will be wasted on this non-issue once the undesirable
agitator is elminated.

 

[Grumble]

Personally I'd suggest you leave planet Earth for somewhere you'll be
less disappointed. Triton is nice, this time of year..

I hear it's rather chilly this time of year

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/triton.htm

 

[Grumble]

Fortunately "my correspondent" does not realize that there's a
more authoritative indicator of Intel's greed.

http://www.intel.com/intel/finance/pricelist/

3.33 GHz Xeon with 8 MB L3 sells for $3,692, and a piddly
1.6 GHz Itanium with 9 MB of L3 sells for $4,227.

IIRC, AMD is no better in that regard. It apparently wants ~$3000
for the top-of-the-line Opteron.

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_609,00.html

Dual-Core Model 875 $2,649

I didn't know Intel had a similar price list, thanks!

Do you know where one can purchase an Itanium 2 CPU?

 

[Robert Myers]

I believe that you may have missed the point entirely.

It matters little whether or not Chairman Mao's theory,
or any such social theory is crazy.

I think it matters. Even the drastic measures taken failed manifestly
failed to eliminate greed from the society.

One might conclude from the failed Twentieth Century experiments in
socialism and communism that greed is immutable. The baboon troop
story is an example of changing what might seem to be immutable
behavior by changing the composition of the group. If one were
optimistic, one might hope that some step other than liquidation of the
aggressive males could achieve the same effect.

Chairman Mao may well be right, and upon elmination of the
"bad" people, society would be much better. The problem is,
as always, in the implementation of the social theory.

But it wasn't the only problem. "The measures taken" (title of a
militantly-Communist play by Brecht) didn't achieve the desired effect.

We don't really know in what ways it is possible to arrange human
societies. It may be possible to arrange a society that doesn't run on
greed.

RM

 

[Del Cecchi]

I think it matters. Even the drastic measures taken failed manifestly
failed to eliminate greed from the society.

One might conclude from the failed Twentieth Century experiments in
socialism and communism that greed is immutable. The baboon troop
story is an example of changing what might seem to be immutable
behavior by changing the composition of the group. If one were
optimistic, one might hope that some step other than liquidation of the
aggressive males could achieve the same effect.



But it wasn't the only problem. "The measures taken" (title of a
militantly-Communist play by Brecht) didn't achieve the desired effect.

We don't really know in what ways it is possible to arrange human
societies. It may be possible to arrange a society that doesn't run on
greed.

RM

Been done many times, although in smaller groups. The aboriginal folk
of the Pacific NW in North America are said to have achieved status by
gift giving and the custom of Potlatch.

A number of religious communities such as the shakers, Hutterites, and
probably to some degree the Amish minimize greed as a motivation.

del cecchi

 

[GSV Three Minds in a Can]

I hear it's rather chilly this time of year

Cr&p .. how am I going to fill my quota of deep-frozen Trolls if you go
round giving them hints. 8>.

 

[Carlos Moreno]

Cr&p .. how am I going to fill my quota of deep-frozen Trolls if you go
round giving them hints. 8>.

Well, you were too obvious... You should have recommended the red-sand
beaches near the polar cap in Mars... It would have been more credible
;-)

Carlos
--

 

[David Wang]

David Wang wrote:

Dual-Core Model 875 $2,649

I didn't know Intel had a similar price list, thanks!

Do you know where one can purchase an Itanium 2 CPU?

For the entire line of Itanium 2's?

I do not. Best bet is to call Intel and ask where you can source
one or two single Itanium 2's.

There are however, some companies that do carry one or two grey
market units.

Something like this.

http://www.store.yahoo.com/glob2000/1init26mbl34.html

 

[Alexander Grigoriev]

Societies where 'greed' is banned won't sell processors for $1000. In fact,
they won't have processors (nor cars, nor TVs) at all.
'Greed' is just another side of "want of better life", this is what drives
competition. No 'greed', no competition, and you then have Soviet Union,
where the party could tell engineers to build ballistic missiles, but was
not able to get good cars and TVs produced, don't even mention
80286-compatible CPU. I've lived there until its demise. BTW, the military
electronics was crappy, as well.

 

[aether]

Greed, as we've come to know it, must eventually be annihilated. One
way or another, it must be destroyed. It will be destroyed. Now, when I
speak of greed, it's the aforementioned individuals who are
multi-million and billionaires. You can have a 'free' society without
such individuals.

 

[Robert Myers]

Societies where 'greed' is banned won't sell processors for $1000. In fact,
they won't have processors (nor cars, nor TVs) at all.

That's the sort of emphatic arrogance that produced the failed
experiments in totalitarian Communism. We simply don't know what's
possible. There is no justification for turning empirical experience
with the success of free markets into an article of faith.

'Greed' is just another side of "want of better life", this is what drives
competition. No 'greed', no competition, and [then] you then have Soviet Union,

The "and [then]" doesn't follow. There have been examples of societies
that do not run on competition. None so far has been technologically
advanced, but that does not mean there could never be such a society.

where the party could tell engineers to build ballistic missiles, but was
not able to get good cars and TVs produced, don't even mention
80286-compatible CPU. I've lived there until its demise. BTW, the military
electronics was crappy, as well.

Uh-huh. And your experience with one kind of zealotry has turned you
into a different kind of zealot. The failed nuttiness of Communism is
no justification for imposing the law of the jungle on the future of
all societies.

RM

 

[David Wang]

Greed, as we've come to know it, must eventually be annihilated.
One way or another, it must be destroyed. It will be destroyed.
Now, when I speak of greed, it's the aforementioned individuals who are
multi-million and billionaires. You can have a 'free' society without
such individuals.

Unfortunately no.

Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness.

You're seeking to deprive some individuals of the first item. I
would suggest that it's a fairly important item.

How can you have a "free" society when you go around killing
people you deem to be "undesirable" for the random reason you
choose? What is there to stop you from killing off all of the
rest of the people for the other sins? There are six more
after greed.

Greed, Gluttony, Envy, Sloth, Pride, Lust, Wrath.**

I think this means that if you're envious of those with fast
processors, you'll have to eliminate yourself right after the
overweight people are eliminated.

** Yes, I enjoyed the movie.

 

[David Wang]

Alexander Grigoriev wrote:

That's the sort of emphatic arrogance that produced the failed
experiments in totalitarian Communism. We simply don't know what's
possible. There is no justification for turning empirical experience
with the success of free markets into an article of faith.

Unfortunately, the imposition of any "new" or "ideal" social system
require modification of human behaviour. Therein lies the catch 22.
How do you modify human behaviour without the deployment of state
terror to kill/torture/jail those that do not agree with your ideal
social system? If you "reward" rather than terrorize, are you not
appealing to the base element of greed that you're attempting to
elminate?

FWIW, "free market" is also not "the best" or optimal solution,
as far as the creation of a "better society". The modified and
controlled "sort of free" market that we have now just happens
to be the least bad system that humankind knows about.

'Greed' is just another side of "want of better life", this is what drives
competition. No 'greed', no competition, and [then] you then have Soviet Union,

The "and [then]" doesn't follow. There have been examples of societies
that do not run on competition. None so far has been technologically
advanced, but that does not mean there could never be such a society.

where the party could tell engineers to build ballistic missiles, but was
not able to get good cars and TVs produced, don't even mention
80286-compatible CPU. I've lived there until its demise. BTW, the military
electronics was crappy, as well.

Uh-huh. And your experience with one kind of zealotry has turned you
into a different kind of zealot. The failed nuttiness of Communism is
no justification for imposing the law of the jungle on the future of
all societies.

Except we do not have "law of the jungle" anywhere.

By evolutionary measures, the society as a whole has chosen to impose
a whole host of restrictions on what we believe to be "fair".
The powers of regulation and taxation exist to restrict or limit the
damage of unrestricted free market system. As we've seen the damage
that kind of system can bring, we've continuously fine tuned the
system to better harness the good (competitiveness), and limit the
bad.

FWIW, there's no reason why uniform values must be imposed on
"all societies". As you yourself have cited, there have been societies
that does not live by the same set of values as the one that we
currently follow. Such societies can exist within existing framework.
All you need are likeminded individuals that can pool their collective
resources, and form their own commune or some such thing, and conduct
their own social experiments. Show the rest of the world why such a
social system is "better". Let the people judge for themselves, and
freely choose to adjust their own values accordingly without the
imposition of state terror that dictate the elimination of some
percentage of the population.