RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jan Panteltje
  • Start date Start date
Jan Panteltje said:
In a word: NO. Not for technical reasons, because the CPU
is more than enough and a 1080i HDTV would make a fine monitor.

The problem is psycho-social, much like what stops voice
recognition software from becoming the dominant UI. People
like public entertainment (sound, stage, TV) but like private
communications & reading. No-one likes a shoulder-surfer.

It has *2* HDMI outputs, and ANY of the 7 SPE can do
decoding.. No reason why one could not do the TV, and the
other one a normal monitor. It also has component out....
Maybe I misunderstood you?[/QUOTE]

Oh, this could work, but then you'd have to run monitor,
kbd/ctl cables between entertainment and personal workspaces.
People don't like running cables, nor dealing with the
dual-use complexity.

-- Robert
 
Oh, this could work, but then you'd have to run monitor,
kbd/ctl cables between entertainment and personal workspaces.
People don't like running cables, nor dealing with the
dual-use complexity.
Well, OK, cables.... should see this place..... But there will
*always* be some cables... power, connection to monitor... and
cables are a lot more reliable then all that wireless, I do
not like recharging batteries all the time.... But then at that
pricepoint the PS3 would have: just use two, one next to the TV
and one next to your PC... Like al these AC adapters, now how
to tell these apart.. I have labeled all of these.. to prevent
blowing up stuff, not 2 are the same... Wireless power we need :-)
 
The HDTV comparison you're looking for is 1920x1080 / 1280x720. And
even that's not right, because there's no source of 1080p, only 1080i.
Converting a 1080i source to 1080p requires no processing, only the
temporary storage of the alternate scan-lines so that the image can be
displayed all at once. So, the REAL comparision, as far as processing
power is concerned, is 1920x1080x0.5 / 1280x720, which is very close
to being the same thing.

Note that the above is a bit over-simplified, but it does correctly
illustrate that 720p is really not "easier" than 1080i (or "1080p"
derived from 1080i).
OK, apart indeed from several de-interlacing schemes, such as over more
then 2 scan lines.
Maybe you can explain to me than why it is claimed that we need a P4 3.2GHz
dual core for the 1080i, and why I can get only 3fps in ffplay on a Duron 950?
(this Duron will play 720x576 @ 25 no problem, in mpeg2dec (picture viewer
only at that resolution ist will hit lots and lots more (that prog has no
speed control, great for checking framerates).

I can only measure, and the ffmpeg H264 decoder is not perfect, has still some
artefacts, on the TPS demo, do you take into account the power needed to
update the display?
Reality check, show me how much frames you get on your system, I make some of
the stream available via ftp if you want?
 
BTW I think it is like this, if decoding time is 5x and display update time
is 2.5 x and each have similar percentage, then you will be 12.5 x slower.
Then a Duron 950 hat can do 60 fps on 720x576 @ 50 will only do 60 / 12.5 = 4.8
fps on 1920x1080 and this is what I see (actually I see 3 fps).

(Using 2.5x and 5x wild estimates).

QED
:-)
 
LOL, sees mlike Billy The Gates came ito life by buying that quick and
dirty MS DOS so IBM had an OS.

Seems to me IBM had Linux for this one in house and needs no MS.
:-)

I did realize that MS share must now head towards earth....
Because it will take him some time to port MS windows to PlayStation 3
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA WHOaaaaHAHAHAHA LOL hehehe
LOL

You laughed typing the stuff above - the spelling shows. Bill laughs
all the way to the bank - day in, day out. Which laugh is better?

NNN
 
You laughed typing the stuff above - the spelling shows. Bill laughs
all the way to the bank - day in, day out. Which laugh is better?

I have seen Bills pictures a couple of times last year, he did not look
so happy.
Maybe this is more philosophical, but money cannot buy happiness.
If Bill went to look for the true self he'd at least have a chance to
spend his life with a bit more bliss.
From the life we have (the hours we live) our efficiency in percent is
100 X (hours_happy / hours_lived).
Never mind the species, it will likely go dinos ways.
 
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:03:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje

....snip...
With those Cell SPEs running free from interrupts and task-switches, lots
of real time stuff should be possible (if you can find some IO pin :-) ).
It is like having 8 (or 7) embedded processors as assistance.

And those graphics cards are power hungry....

In my view (as electronics designer) we have seen the following trend over
the last 50 years.
Tubes
transistors
chips
LSI (more chips integrated into one)
microcomputers (plus IO integrated).

The IBM PC system with its plugin boards is reaching its physical limits.
It is nice to be able to 'plug in' but the connector of today is Ethernet
(maybe 1Gbit).
The system to plug in of today is the LAN, connected to the Internet.

So it is a 'natural' to make a box with no slots to plug in, but a simple
ethernet connector, and put and much on one chip as possible.
In the case of Cell, 9 processor cores! plus some shared memory.

The consequences will be enormous.
Not only will the whole 'PCI card' industry have to change to RJ45..., MS
Windows will be out.

It may lead to a huge drop in sales for MS, and, as that is a major export
and source of income for the US, to a major dive on the world exchanges.

We see the end of an era.

Yeah, right. And all those stupids make PCIe / AGP cards with tons of
unneeded contacts...or are they in a conspiracy to artificially drive
up the costs of cards, motherboards, etc? ;P All those stupids at AMD
inventing HyperTransport, and all those stupids at Intel trying (so
far, with no success) to beat HT with their own interconnect version?
Re-inventing the wheel? Why they didn't just use your favorite
8-contact RJ45? Or wait, maybe there still is a reason to use
interconnects other than RJ45?
And even before taking on the PC, the not even yet available PS3 will
have to fight for its life against the already hot-selling Xbox made
by the same MS you love to hate.
Just to set it straight - I don't seat on MS board ;(, I don't own
shares of MSFT (well maybe own them indirectly through some mutual
funds), I've never worked for MS, I've never met Gates, or Ballmer,
or any other MS big shot.

NNN
 
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:03:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje

...snip...

Yeah, right. And all those stupids make PCIe / AGP cards with tons of
unneeded contacts...or are they in a conspiracy to artificially drive
up the costs of cards, motherboards, etc? ;P All those stupids at AMD
inventing HyperTransport, and all those stupids at Intel trying (so
far, with no success) to beat HT with their own interconnect version?
Yep, reality can hit hard aint it ;-)

Re-inventing the wheel? Why they didn't just use your favorite
8-contact RJ45? Or wait, maybe there still is a reason to use
interconnects other than RJ45?
No, PCB connectors for these high speeds suck, too much current too,
RJ45 has DC decoupling (transformers remember), and this decoupling
is extremely important to prevent ground loops (between different boxes).
Next will be optical.
Yes some connectors will be needed, hard disks in the 'object', power
connectors.
Eventually at even higher speeds the connections between on board chips
will have to be optical.

It was already clear that there were problems with the current processors
and power and f clock, and that is why they go multiple core.
And Cell is an example of 9 cores in one chip, with good interconnect
and local memory.

Sorry to have to bring it to you ;-)

Displays are important, visualizations.. rendering....
Low power, small boxes, no need to ever open these, just connect an other
gadget to the LAN with a simple RJ45 click.... 100 meters cable length...

It is true, webcam ( I have a DCS-900 on RJ45, also works when PC is off
as webserver, watch your place from all over the world), one could of course
have a video tuner (what is 12 Mbits), most new DVD players (Kiss) will have
RJ45 Ethernet, what not?
Upgrade later? Buy a PS4 :-)



And even before taking on the PC, the not even yet available PS3 will
have to fight for its life against the already hot-selling Xbox made
by the same MS you love to hate.
xbox is way below expected sales, way way way below that in Japan,
hardly any games, they did their BEST to lock out Linux, so that already
excludes half the universe + South America... + China as potential market..
alas what a vision.

Much of the connector madness is caused by DRM, for example HDMI.
Close the analog hole? Wrong place wrong place....
Just to set it straight - I don't seat on MS board ;(, I don't own
shares of MSFT (well maybe own them indirectly through some mutual
funds),
Well, you know what wil lhappen now....
I've never worked for MS, I've never met Gates, or Ballmer,
or any other MS big shot.
I think I did not either, better for them too, would have asked him about
Linux.
hehe
 
Jan Panteltje said:
I have seen Bills pictures a couple of times last year, he did not look
so happy.
Maybe this is more philosophical, but money cannot buy happiness.
If Bill went to look for the true self he'd at least have a chance to
spend his life with a bit more bliss.
From the life we have (the hours we live) our efficiency in percent is
100 X (hours_happy / hours_lived).
Never mind the species, it will likely go dinos ways.

Money can't buy happiness, but it can eliminate many sources of worry and
unhappiness. Don't judge people by their photographs.

As for the eventual uses of the PS3 and the cell chip in it or
derivatives of it, it will be interesting to see what happens. Of course
if you have money and want a special version of your own, or a customized
system using it, I can put you in touch with some folks.....

del cecchi
 
Del said:
As for the eventual uses of the PS3 and the cell chip in it or
derivatives of it, it will be interesting to see what happens. Of course
if you have money and want a special version of your own, or a customized
system using it, I can put you in touch with some folks.....

As I think I predicted, Mercury Computer Sytems has a product

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3591350722.html

and they have serious customers with natural applications who also have
money. I hope some of those boxes wind up in academic environments.
That's a much more plausible environment for discovering what cell is
really capable of than hacking PS3. It would take a brave soul,
indeed, to jump into that market without first seeing how Mercury makes
out.

RM
 
Yes, just did a google search for 'GeForce 7300 GS H264' and
got >40000 hits ....
To the source:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/7_series_techspecs.html
Chip seems to support AGP, but board?

All the recent video chips have a native PCI-E x16 interface - the AGP is
done with a bridge chip. Whether the video card mfrs implement depends on
the market: with GeForce 6800 it was a no-brainer, then the mfrs saw that
6600 was an upgrade target too. Finally we had 6200 AGP but I'm still not
sure why, since that would not appear to be an upgrade for many folks.

As the number of PCI-E PCs rises, obviously the AGP cards will die but does
it really matter here?
They mention Linux, Nvidia always had closed source drivers for Linux...
Cannot get a list of connectors, does it have HDMI? Dunno.

I want the play station 3.... already made a decision for myself.

Think of all the things those SPE will give you, an example:
Long time ago (DR DOS) I had this IR LED on a par port pin.
It did send IR codes to start the VCR.. to make it change channels and record.
I jumped from DR DOS (and win 3.10) to Linux, but the multi task switching
caused delays in the on / off sequence of the LED and it became
unreliable.
Open sourced it, but no longer used.

With those Cell SPEs running free from interrupts and task-switches, lots
of real time stuff should be possible (if you can find some IO pin :-) ).
It is like having 8 (or 7) embedded processors as assistance.

Good luck with the parallel code - a hard nut to crack. Oh it's
happening... but slowly.
And those graphics cards are power hungry....

They get unhungry when they're on the same board as the CPU/memory?
In my view (as electronics designer) we have seen the following trend over
the last 50 years.
Tubes
transistors
chips
LSI (more chips integrated into one)
microcomputers (plus IO integrated).

The IBM PC system with its plugin boards is reaching its physical limits.
It is nice to be able to 'plug in' but the connector of today is Ethernet
(maybe 1Gbit).
The system to plug in of today is the LAN, connected to the Internet.

So it is a 'natural' to make a box with no slots to plug in, but a simple
ethernet connector, and put and much on one chip as possible.
In the case of Cell, 9 processor cores! plus some shared memory.

The consequences will be enormous.
Not only will the whole 'PCI card' industry have to change to RJ45..., MS
Windows will be out.

A single 1Gb Ethernet instead of in-the-box PCI-e? That's an awful big
leap to a narrow pipe... and people hate cables.

So who and what is going to take the place of M$ Windows?...
Sony? said:
It may lead to a huge drop in sales for MS, and, as that is a major export
and source of income for the US, to a major dive on the world exchanges.

Ah your little obsession with predicting the destruction of the U.S.
economy.:-)
 
Money can't buy happiness, but it can eliminate many sources of worry and
unhappiness. Don't judge people by their photographs.

As for the eventual uses of the PS3 and the cell chip in it or
derivatives of it, it will be interesting to see what happens. Of course
if you have money and want a special version of your own, or a customized
system using it, I can put you in touch with some folks.....

del cecchi

Oh, yes, so can I :-)
At this moment I am reading paper after paper on the Cell, you know,
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/views/power/libraryview.jsp?search_by=just+like+being+there:
and looking at code examples.
Programming threads in Linux is something I have been doing for a while,
and the way they have 'interfaced' the SPEs to the OS so you can just run
threads, and all variants there of, sure has me interested in wanting to
program for it.

The game (for me) is to get max performance for min money.
Hopefully the PS3 hardware will be here soon.

Since I wrote 30 or more GPL applications for Linux cannot wait to port these
to PS3 :-) and make these available.
How about this newsreader for example? On a PS3? hehe
Would have to be optimized.... to use SPE.. Needs mouse, maybe use joystick...
Will have to see....

Ultimately we are waiting for the (StarTrek) replicator so we can 'replicate'
our own PS3 boxes, but they will try to DRM these - perhaps by making these
boxes so big they do not fit in the replicators -

That was a JOKE OK Hollywood? A JOKE.

So, I want the real thing here on my desk... before I start the emulation
soft. Anyways it is redhat.. I am just downloading the new Suse-10.1 beta
(came out few days ago) from www.opensuse.org.... 10.0 screwed up much
of what was there from 9.3... good thing I have 2 systems... And MAYBE
after doing all other things planned I will see if I can get that Cell
developer suite running on suse-10.1 beta...... But hey do not hold your
breath... PS3 is not in the shop yet.

Vague enough.
grin
hehe
sniffle sniffle
LOL

Well I dunno, but it is fun stuff.
All of it, the world is a strange place.

Look at that HDMI interface between 'PC' and monitor.
As we go multimedia, we should say " between PC and TV display device.
So then it would make a lot of sense to put the H264 decoding + Cell in the TV,
and connect the monitor (eh TV) via RJ45 base100 Ethernet to the LAN.
And use transport stream format (as already used in satellite), advantages:
1) Encrypted possible, smartcard in TV.
2) Only 15 Mbits / second max
3) Standard RJ45 connector
4) Galvanic isolation
5) 100 meters possible
6) All sub services (teletext audio, (AC3, MP2), program guides,
access control, subtitles) ALL services are in the TS (transport stream).
7) Give the TV an IP address like for example 10.0.0.151 on the LAN.
8) So, now with TV on the LAN with only TV and router, and a possible switch
powered on, you can, if your Internet connection can do 15 Mbits / sec
(fiber?) have TV from Internet anytime without a PC.

There are more plusses, does Toshiba have TV set with Cell processor like
that?

So why the f*ck HDMI? WHY? because they are a bunch of idiots.
When HDMI was proposed (was it Intel?) it was evaluated by real cryptographers
and found completely full of holes and cracked within the hour.
Chipsets were made anyways.

I proposed a hack (after reading those crypto papers) in some related
newsgroups, and that hack involved taking a HDMI chip from an old monitor
and using that to decode...
And guess what, industry did one better and got the ORIGINAL chips?
http://www.spatz-tech.de/spatz/spatz.htm
I notice some stuff has been altered now....
Somebody must have complained?

Am I dreaming? No it is Saturday afternoon and I am awake.

Not to worry nuclear war will clean it all up.
 
All the recent video chips have a native PCI-E x16 interface - the AGP is
done with a bridge chip. Whether the video card mfrs implement depends on
the market: with GeForce 6800 it was a no-brainer, then the mfrs saw that
6600 was an upgrade target too. Finally we had 6200 AGP but I'm still not
sure why, since that would not appear to be an upgrade for many folks.
Ok, I see.
As the number of PCI-E PCs rises, obviously the AGP cards will die but does
it really matter here?

Not if I go to PS3 ;-) If I upgraded my Tyan mobo with Duron (AGP) yes..
Did you know THIS Tyan mobo even has one ISA connector ?
It has an old Philips analog TV card in it.
Good luck with the parallel code - a hard nut to crack. Oh it's
happening... but slowly. mmm



They get unhungry when they're on the same board as the CPU/memory?
As you can use the SPEs (in PS3 at 3.2 GHz IIRC) to each do part of
the decode and display process (and perhaps decrypt), then yes it could
take less power perhaps..... Would be interesting to see some numbers.

A single 1Gb Ethernet instead of in-the-box PCI-e? That's an awful big
leap to a narrow pipe... and people hate cables.

No, this is what I mean, also see my reply on HDMI in the other post.
I would (lets designs a sane system for a moment) put the H264 decoder
in the ***TV*** and give that TV an IP address on the LAN.
Then ALL services are available to that TV (like subtitles, audio too), IF
we use the (already a standard) .ts (transport stream) format (and that
can be encrypted).
Just one Ethernet cable, and .ts format in HD is only 15 M *bits* per second,
so not even gigabit Ethernet, but just base 100 is needed.
That does include 7.1 or as many channels as you like audio, some TV stations
here transmit 8 languages, some have mp2 and ac3 surround at the same time.
Sat digital radio stations can have hundreds of channels in the .ts stream.
See my other post on HDMI.

So who and what is going to take the place of M$ Windows?...


Ah your little obsession with predicting the destruction of the U.S.
economy.:-)
Ah, yes, they will do that to themselves....
Yes I make fun of it, but Billy lost more money in the last 2 days then
I ever had in my hand.

It is interesting stuff, George Soros, in his book 'The Alchemy of Finance'
wrote: 'The major crash will start in the Eastern markets, I watch Tokyo
first thing in the morning...'. It happened last week, fasten seatbelts, if
(just and only if because of this) the hedge funds get nervous, then anything
goes... It is some time ago I wrote soft for that sort of stuff.. but I
remember what Soros wrote that book.
'Alchemy' and 'human nature', human nature is what drives it all, and to
some extend predictable.
You could argue Capitalism is driven by greed... better could be 'by human
nature...'.
So my 'obsession' no... my 'prediction' based on what I understand yes.
Do I expect my 'warning' to change anything? No.
That is the power of it all, it has its own momentum.
Human nature, human behavior, neural nets, is a very interesting subject.
Regards
Jan
 
Ok, I see.


Not if I go to PS3 ;-) If I upgraded my Tyan mobo with Duron (AGP) yes..
Did you know THIS Tyan mobo even has one ISA connector ?
It has an old Philips analog TV card in it.

So you have a dated mbrd. said:
As you can use the SPEs (in PS3 at 3.2 GHz IIRC) to each do part of
the decode and display process (and perhaps decrypt), then yes it could
take less power perhaps..... Would be interesting to see some numbers.



No, this is what I mean, also see my reply on HDMI in the other post.
I would (lets designs a sane system for a moment) put the H264 decoder
in the ***TV*** and give that TV an IP address on the LAN.
Then ALL services are available to that TV (like subtitles, audio too), IF
we use the (already a standard) .ts (transport stream) format (and that
can be encrypted).
Just one Ethernet cable, and .ts format in HD is only 15 M *bits* per second,
so not even gigabit Ethernet, but just base 100 is needed.
That does include 7.1 or as many channels as you like audio, some TV stations
here transmit 8 languages, some have mp2 and ac3 surround at the same time.
Sat digital radio stations can have hundreds of channels in the .ts stream.
See my other post on HDMI.

No, you're missing the point of the PC as a general purpose box - you have
a fancy TV.
Ah, yes, they will do that to themselves....
Yes I make fun of it, but Billy lost more money in the last 2 days then
I ever had in my hand.

Oil is powerful stuff.. just like the gas you Euros got short on a coupla
weeks ago.:-)
It is interesting stuff, George Soros, in his book 'The Alchemy of Finance'
wrote: 'The major crash will start in the Eastern markets, I watch Tokyo
first thing in the morning...'. It happened last week, fasten seatbelts, if
(just and only if because of this) the hedge funds get nervous, then anything
goes... It is some time ago I wrote soft for that sort of stuff.. but I
remember what Soros wrote that book.
'Alchemy' and 'human nature', human nature is what drives it all, and to
some extend predictable.
You could argue Capitalism is driven by greed... better could be 'by human
nature...'.

And socialism isn't? It's only a different selection process for the
people at the top. The enigma is: if either of the two groups is more
malevolent...corrupt, than the other?
So my 'obsession' no... my 'prediction' based on what I understand yes.

Prophets of doom are a dime a dozen.
Do I expect my 'warning' to change anything? No.
That is the power of it all, it has its own momentum.
Human nature, human behavior, neural nets, is a very interesting subject.

No need to wallow in it. If the US "falls" the rest of the world will fall
with it - many will fall further, including Europe.
 
So you have a dated mbrd.<shrug>

The point I was making in the original post is this (so I repeat what I wrote):
'Many people in Europe use an old PC (say K6 or Duron) as video recorder for
digital satellite TV, 'VDR' is such a project, and I have done some
( http://panteltje.com/panteltje/dvd/ ) of similar stuff myself.'

There are thousands (I think) users of VDR, satellite is very popular where I
am, and in Germany, northern European countries.
So THESE OLD BOXES HAVE AN OLD MOBO, and THAT is part of the issue.
These are perfect video recorders, maybe like your TIVO but much better of
course;-)
No, you're missing the point of the PC as a general purpose box - you have
a fancy TV.

No I am not, the proposition of the PC as 'general purpose' box or rather
'multimedia box' is from people like ME.
Long before mikey soft and the '64kB is enough for everyone', 'Internet is
nothing', and 'DVD is out' remarks from Billy The Gates, always wrong...
always ... now saying PC is the 'multimedia center' so far behind the FACTS
that that is exactly what we are moving away from at this moment.

The first sign is the many digital videos sold with editing features.
Yes the PC will stay in use as editing suite for audio and video for a while.
But that same PC as power hungry 200 to 300 Watt electricity eater has no
future.
Notebooks will replace it, no more PCI plugin cards, interface: RJ45.
The LAN wil operate autonomous.
Home automation, it is all working here, you can see the temps here:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/view_sensors.php
controls heaters.... can be controlled from all over the world.
Small specialized plugins to the LAN, like for example the HP thin clients
perhaps.
Only power what you need when you need it.
Linux runs on a FPGA board or micro controller.

It will all be about power -solar PC?- 12 V operating, alternative energy,

Energy will be VERY expensive when Iran asks gold for the oil.
Their financial withdrawal from the US markets will and does hit.
Oil is powerful stuff.. just like the gas you Euros got short on a coupla
weeks ago.:-)
Exactly, I see we agree, and now a cold wave is here...
And socialism isn't? It's only a different selection process for the
people at the top. The enigma is: if either of the two groups is more
malevolent...corrupt, than the other?

Yes same thing, probably any 'ism' can also be called a system, and, as
we humans change, so must systems adapt.
If they don't then these systems will collapse, be it by revolution or just
abandoned for some other 'ism'.


Prophets of doom are a dime a dozen.
Well ultimately it is probably safe to predict humanity wil go dinos way.
Not that I will be there to see that.....
Lets call it a 'design fault' same way as the dinos were too big and heavy.
hehe
Oh well :-)
No need to wallow in it. If the US "falls" the rest of the world will fall
with it - many will fall further, including Europe.
US has a big deficit, Europe exports a lot to it, so depends on it.
But Europe also exports tech to China.
If production is cheaper in China, the US can only export knowledge.
But China had 40x more students graduate last year I have read somewhere then
the US.
So I dunno.. China has a big internal market it can produce for, we (Europe)
do also export tech to China.
US will have lost the last tech advantage in 20 years or so at this speed.
So with US turning into a low wages place, [a] world balance will sort of
happen.

But US will try war to prevent all this.. But what if China has better weapons.
History shows the Roman empire, how big and mighty it may have been, is no
longer.
The world is still here, but the times and places change.
No, before it goes dinos way, many 'centers of power' will have been,
civilizations will have happened perhaps.
Regards
Jan
 
The point I was making in the original post is this (so I repeat what I wrote):
'Many people in Europe use an old PC (say K6 or Duron) as video recorder for
digital satellite TV, 'VDR' is such a project, and I have done some
( http://panteltje.com/panteltje/dvd/ ) of similar stuff myself.'

I wish you'd focus on the issue and quit jumping around to make your point:
one minute you're talking of the latest codecs, the next you're talking
about dumb VDRs.
There are thousands (I think) users of VDR, satellite is very popular where I
am, and in Germany, northern European countries.
So THESE OLD BOXES HAVE AN OLD MOBO, and THAT is part of the issue.
These are perfect video recorders, maybe like your TIVO but much better of
course;-)

In that case, there's more to it than AGP: newer AGP 3.0 cards will not
work on old AGP 1.x mbrds. As for K6s, be prepared to lose them. I have
two broken K6 mbrds in the office - one I suspect a VR and the other
electrolytic cap failure. Nothing's forever... everything gets "old"...
move on.

If there's a market for 7000 series AGP upgrades for the Durons and older
Athlons, Celerons & P4s it will happen... just as it has for the GeForce
6000 series.
No I am not, the proposition of the PC as 'general purpose' box or rather
'multimedia box' is from people like ME.
Long before mikey soft and the '64kB is enough for everyone', 'Internet is
nothing', and 'DVD is out' remarks from Billy The Gates, always wrong...
always ... now saying PC is the 'multimedia center' so far behind the FACTS
that that is exactly what we are moving away from at this moment.

I'll be sure to watch for your name on the humanitarian awards, next to
BG's, when you become filthy rich.:-)
The first sign is the many digital videos sold with editing features.
Yes the PC will stay in use as editing suite for audio and video for a while.
But that same PC as power hungry 200 to 300 Watt electricity eater has no
future.

What the hell are you on about? Christ there's nothing hungry about 300W -
a coupla light bulbs worth! Compared with staying warm it's a minor blip.
Notebooks will replace it, no more PCI plugin cards, interface: RJ45.
The LAN wil operate autonomous.
Home automation, it is all working here, you can see the temps here:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/view_sensors.php
controls heaters.... can be controlled from all over the world.
Small specialized plugins to the LAN, like for example the HP thin clients
perhaps.
Only power what you need when you need it.
Linux runs on a FPGA board or micro controller.

Sorry I just don't see it - replacing one centralized box with a buncha
multiple failure points. I also don't need or want to control my household
appliances from a LAN. It would be nice to stick a DVD in the computer
drive and watch the video downstairs on TV but *not* with wires and Wi-Fi
is not quite there yet. Then there's DRM which err, complicates all this.
It will all be about power -solar PC?- 12 V operating, alternative energy,

I'm sorry but solar and wind just don't cut it - a blind alley. You have
no conception of how far out of whack your "alternative energy" sources are
in relation to the scale of energy production and use. It's all laid out
in front of you but you refuse to take it in: just look... at the
"dirtiest" energy consumer nations in Europe. There are lessons to learn
here.
Energy will be VERY expensive when Iran asks gold for the oil.
Their financial withdrawal from the US markets will and does hit.

Iran is playing games... with its own peoples' comfort and well-being.
They're going to hurt themselves more than anybody else.
Exactly, I see we agree, and now a cold wave is here...

And one wonders what the "greens" have to say... curiously silent as they
face the prospect of shivering to death as the infrastructure they so
despise reveals how dependent they are.
Yes same thing, probably any 'ism' can also be called a system, and, as
we humans change, so must systems adapt.
If they don't then these systems will collapse, be it by revolution or just
abandoned for some other 'ism'.

Point: the bottom line is that some form of (regulated) capitalism is the
only "system" which has shown itself to work in the long term.
Prophets of doom are a dime a dozen.
Well ultimately it is probably safe to predict humanity wil go dinos way.
Not that I will be there to see that.....
Lets call it a 'design fault' same way as the dinos were too big and heavy.
hehe
Oh well :-)
No need to wallow in it. If the US "falls" the rest of the world will fall
with it - many will fall further, including Europe.
US has a big deficit, Europe exports a lot to it, so depends on it.
But Europe also exports tech to China.
If production is cheaper in China, the US can only export knowledge.
But China had 40x more students graduate last year I have read somewhere then
the US.
So I dunno.. China has a big internal market it can produce for, we (Europe)
do also export tech to China.
US will have lost the last tech advantage in 20 years or so at this speed.
So with US turning into a low wages place, [a] world balance will sort of
happen.

Absurd extrapolations are no help here. China is an adolescent
socio-political basket case.
But US will try war to prevent all this.. But what if China has better weapons.
History shows the Roman empire, how big and mighty it may have been, is no
longer.
The world is still here, but the times and places change.
No, before it goes dinos way, many 'centers of power' will have been,
civilizations will have happened perhaps.

WTF are you smoking?
 
On a sunny day (Tue, 24 Jan 2006 04:10:07 -0500) it happened George Macdonald
<[email protected]>:

Hi, I see my post upset you a bit perhaps.
I will address a few points to see if I can 'fix' that :-)
I wish you'd focus on the issue and quit jumping around to make your point:
one minute you're talking of the latest codecs, the next you're talking
about dumb VDRs.
The issue is; I will explain, as you (as Amercian ;-) ) clearly have no idea
what happens here in Free Europe.

What happens here is that a new TV standard has come about.
Some stations are already transmitting in that standard now.

If you click here:
http://www.kingofsat.net/nl/
and then on the red HD logo on the right, you will see some of these stations
listed.
The NEW standard is called DVB-S2, transmits with FEC 9/10, and PCI cards
(old style PCI) will be available any moment, click here, then on that card
for specs:
http://www.knc1.com/

The new standard implies ALSO H264 encoding.
All this results in 30% (I think) less bandwidth use per channel, so more
channels, while higher resolution (1920x1080 @50fps interlaced).

Already TODAY some of these stations (TPS) transmit in H264 in HR but still
using the old DVB-S standard.
VDR boxes can record this no problem (K6 Duron, old pentium, what not).
And will be able to record all of this NO PROBLEM (only 15 Mbits / second
per channel), I can record a whole transponder on a Duron 950.
*BUT* such a system cannot display the H264 in real time because of time
needed to decode and update display.
Then one can move to a power hungry (more later) P4 3.2GHz dual core with
high end power guzzling FX1800 video cards, sure.

But that would be a really daft solution.
You'd only need that video card to interface with HDMI HDCP to the TV.
Wrong point (again) this is the WRONG place to cut the system in pieces,
and also the wrong way to do it, as that does NOT stop a 10 year old
from buying a HDCP -> component no loss whatsoever converter box to record
stuff (but even the 10 year old knows enough not to go that way).

In one possible RIGHT way to 'cut up into boxes', the H264 decoder goes into
the TV.
Now you can make a receiver box with RJ45 (15Mbits /s), a recorder box,
crypto is taken care of (smart card in TV), so is TV over Internet.

Then the only question to be answered how does your keyboard with build in
super computer interface to the LAN?
Well, (from your point of view) *put the H264 ENCODER in the PC* (or
in the PS3, or in the keyboard with supercomputer.
So, and maybe by setting parameters in that ENCODER we can have good display
of the PC screen (desktop) on that big TV too (I have tried some, it seems
to work).
So all LAN.

AS to 300W is nothing, old K6 Philips (nothing to do with processors, K6
was Philips early tube color TV chassis) was also 250W or so...
Bad room heating in summer, add some power (the same or double) for
the airco to cool the place to livable temps again.... YES POWER CONSUMPTION
IS IMPORTANT,
No I am the Netherlands we have our own natural gas so I am not worried
about Russia cutting or blowing up pipes to Europe.

[And] we have windmills too, 2 HUGE ones up the road here, and this is a windy
place on the coast, these windmills (these are actually all over the place
here, many farmers have these here) DO pay themselves back.
And we have some nuclear power.
But STILL you pay $$$$$$$$$$$ for electricity, and you pay $$$$$$$$$ again
in a warm climate for the airco to get rid of the excess heat again.

Maybe one day we have fusion power, but that has been coming for 30 years
and may well be 30 years into the future 30 years from now...

Things will get smaller.
The LAN, well I see it this way:
*(And you can scream and argue all you want against this idea, it WILL happen
regardless of that):
In every house there is a power outlet in every room.
(Even) in America many rooms have water....
In the same way every room in the future will have one or more of those RJ45
connectors in each room.
You just plug in the notebook upstairs, and downstairs you can select it.
The TV sat receiver can be under the attic, and plugged in there, you
control it from any other place in the house.
Man I did not buy those hundreds of meters of screened solid Ethernets cable
cause I do not believe this,, IT WORKS HERE.
Plus in the webcam in the living room, one in the hall to see through the
glass in the front door who is there if the bell rings.... Access to your
central music player from ANY room by ANYONE.... Just an other process running.

Hell people may have objected to electricity outlets, but Ethernets in
every room was what we installed (the company I worked for) in the 80ties in
every self respecting office building *when it was build!!!
No new idea.
And none of this wireless shit source of interference, just the thought I can
walk with a little transmitter into any place and kill all their systems and
RFID tags, no: *SCREENED Ethernet cable*.
(Not even mentioning eavesdroppers, competition downloading your customer
base).

So, for what it is worth.

Capitalism, I have heard many in the US cannot even read and write, do
not have medical insurance, you really must be pissed at Castro.
America collapses and the rest of the world with it?
Probably the other way around, you could not afford a DVD player if it
needed to be manufactured in the US, THAT is why Ford has to cut
30000 jobs.
Where will these people go?

America my foot.

Russia first: Sputnik
Europe first: CD
Germany first: V1 V2

Only way US could win from Germany in WW2 was because US could build ships
faster.
Think about China, think about China, be happy they are not so aggressive,
but you ARE exporting capitalism YOUR capitalism to these, so.

I am not worried, I like Chinese food.
French is very nice too.
And Italian, they were FIRST with pizza.

:-)
 
Jan Panteltje said:
The issue is; I will explain, as you (as Amercian ;-) )
clearly have no idea what happens here in Free Europe.

TV standards have always differed between US & EU. NTSC vs
PAL. Many people have no interest in content from outside
their own region. Oddly, EU seems to be interested in
American content?!? :)
So, for what it is worth.

Yes. You'd like to use K6 boxen for H264. As George says,
you might still have tem around, but their caps are drying up.
Electronics have finite lifetimes. Please also remember
Einstein's "power of compound interest".
Capitalism, I have heard many in the US cannot even read
and write, do not have medical insurance, you really must be
pissed at Castro. America collapses and the rest of the world
with it? Probably the other way around, you could not afford
a DVD player if it needed to be manufactured in the US, THAT
is why Ford has to cut 30000 jobs. Where will these people go?

I find it very revealing when people criticise others.
Most often it is to proclaim superiority, and not to assist
with problems. Such people need to tear down others to build
themselves up. Very negative and disempowered. Sad people.
Sometimes whole societies.

-- Robert
 
TV standards have always differed between US & EU. NTSC vs
PAL. Many people have no interest in content from outside
their own region. Oddly, EU seems to be interested in
American content?!? :)


Yes. You'd like to use K6 boxen for H264. As George says,
you might still have tem around, but their caps are drying up.
Electronics have finite lifetimes. Please also remember
Einstein's "power of compound interest".


I find it very revealing when people criticise others.
Most often it is to proclaim superiority, and not to assist
with problems. Such people need to tear down others to build
themselves up. Very negative and disempowered. Sad people.
Sometimes whole societies.

Na, it is the ever deafening sound of the US media (they buy European
TV stations too, and for example Murdoch a 'true republican has Sky TV)
here that makes that annoying 'US is right rest of the world is wrong' sound.

The poster I replied too suggested that a 'fall' for the US would result
in the fall of the rest of the world.
I say: Get your head fixed, rest of the world got along fine before Columbus
stumbled across America.


*Y O U* must learn to see things for what they are, not only the US view.
Who is a terrorist and who not? Is Christianity superior so it is justified
to kill all Muslims or treat these as animals? You play nice guy and
have your prisoners tortured elsewhere where mammy cannot see it?

Not that I recommend going around dropping bombs on innocent people, that fart
that you voted for as president seems to be so good at.

So, and on the technical level you can learn a lot from Europe, we had DTV
before you (you have hardly started) and GSM and what not.

As for the 'compound interest' yes your capitalism requires destruction of
property that does not age a lot asap, so new ones can be sold.
I can replace electrolytic caps on the other hand.
And have not seen ONE defective electrolytic cap in old mobos so far, but then
these were made in China (not the US).

How much you would like to stop any criticism of you, your system, your leaders,
your illusions.

Not in a free world.
It ain't happening.

You know, I had a TV shop, and made a good living replacing 'electrolytic caps'
for many years (and other components too).
I say you are nuts if you throw away a PC because of a defective cap.
But: You are free to do so, you are free to learn from my 39 years of
electronics experience.
And you are also free to ignore it.

It is your money and what you do with it you will have to live with.

So, as to the subject, PS3 will make a nice PC replacement, one PPC 8
SPE cores, add the H264 encoder take one get the PCB out and put it in
the TV what not.
I can think of a lot of fun that is not feasable with the current PCI
plugin box.

Before you wine learn electronics first, that is what this is about.
Then you can play, else listen to the experts.

The rest is only stupid sales pitches I hear again and again.
 
Jan Panteltje said:
*Y O U* must learn to see things for what they are, not only
the US view. Who is a terrorist and who not? Is Christianity
superior so it is justified to kill all Muslims or treat
these as animals? You play nice guy and have your prisoners
tortured elsewhere where mammy cannot see it?
Not that I recommend going around dropping bombs on innocent
people, that fart that you voted for as president seems to
be so good at.
So, and on the technical level you can learn a lot from
Europe, we had DTV before you (you have hardly started)
and GSM and what not.

Thank you for proving my point [above].
You know, I had a TV shop, and made a good living replacing
'electrolytic caps' for many years (and other components
too). I say you are nuts if you throw away a PC because
of a defective cap.

This is a purely economic decision. Finding & repairing the cap
costs money. And another may soon fail. Often better to replace
the unit, particularly if it was scheduled for upgrading soon.
Fixing bad caps makes sense if mobos are 400E. Probably not if
they are 100E. Unless you value your time very cheaply.

I'm sorry. I don't like the Throw-away Society any more
than you apparently do. But how do you _prove_ it's wrong?
Black swans?
So, as to the subject, PS3 will make a nice PC replacement,
one PPC 8 SPE cores, add the H264 encoder take one get the
PCB out and put it in the TV what not. I can think of a lot
of fun that is not feasable with the current PCI plugin box.

I've answered side-threat that although this is technically very
feasible, it is unlikely to occur for social/support reasons.
Before you wine learn electronics first, that is what this
is about. Then you can play, else listen to the experts.

You only destroy your own credibility by making statements
that other know are untrue and about things you cannot know.
The rest is only stupid sales pitches I hear again and again.

So? You may not like them. I may not like them. But they are
effective. Somebody likes them. And that mass of money keeps
them moving. And gives me economies of scale. I do not complain.

-- Robert
 
Back
Top