Response from the author of 40tude Dialog

[Gord McFee]

< snip >

Then why haven't you complained about RegCleaner and numerous other
Betaware discussions here ?

Seems like you are happy to discuss them. Or do I need to quote posts
of yours where you have discussed/recommended betaware yourself ?

I wouldn't have to look too long would I ? Or are you going to say
that eg. Firebird isn't a beta release ?

I wonder if people aren't being overly complex in defining terms. To me,
it should be this simple:

- freeware is any software that doesn't cost money to use
- betaware is any software that is in its pre-release stage
- payware is any software that requires payment in order to use all its
features.

That would seem to mean that freeware can be either beta or final version,
and betaware can be either payware or freeware.

That means that right now, Dialog is betaware freeware.

If the freeware ever changes, i.e. if the author decides to charge for it,
that means it is no longer freeware, but doesn't change the fact that it
was freeware before the author charged for it.

Just MHO.

 

[Blinky the Shark]

I wonder if people aren't being overly complex in defining terms. To me,

I think not, Gord.

it should be this simple:

- freeware is any software that doesn't cost money to use
- betaware is any software that is in its pre-release stage
- payware is any software that requires payment in order to use all its
features.

I know it's not your intent, but by so obviously oversimplifying,
you include cracks as freeware, since they "[don't] cost money to use".

I repeat, I know you're not proposing this -- I'm only pointing out what
oversimplification leads to. And that's why we're more specific.

 

[Gord McFee]

I wonder if people aren't being overly complex in defining terms. To me,

I think not, Gord.

it should be this simple:

- freeware is any software that doesn't cost money to use
- betaware is any software that is in its pre-release stage
- payware is any software that requires payment in order to use all its
features.

I know it's not your intent, but by so obviously oversimplifying,
you include cracks as freeware, since they "[don't] cost money to use".

I hadn't even thought of that.

I repeat, I know you're not proposing this -- I'm only pointing out what
oversimplification leads to. And that's why we're more specific.

Understood. I'll ponder some more.

 

[Alain =?iso-8859-15?Q?Gu=E9rin?=]

Hello,


Le 20/10/2003 à 08:10:51, Gord McFee écrivait :

- freeware is any software that doesn't cost money to use
- betaware is any software that is in its pre-release stage
- payware is any software that requires payment in order to use all its
features.

I know it's not your intent, but by so obviously oversimplifying,
you include cracks as freeware, since they "[don't] cost money to use".

Understood. I'll ponder some more.

While ? Don't let non rational people lead you to non rational position.

Crackware and copies are freeware.
And they are even not illegal in some countries.
As Internet is international, crackware that has no time limitation is OK
here, following the present definition given by some people here.

They cannot understand that there is no way to have a definition that is
100% perfect and, if we have good lawyers, it will be possible to force
them to do what they don't want. It very easy, for the community to see if
something is eligible here. The rules are not the law, only guide lines. And
when these guide lines are not clear enough, a discussion has to be
conducted here, like the one with Dialog.

And when the major argument against it (to know if it will stay freeware or
not in the final version) is destruct, the discussion is finished, event if Troll
men want to discuss the rules, the law and while we don't know what is
the sex of angels.

The question another time is not following the rules but have a group that
does not deviate.

I can tell you that the laws in the world are so different that we can have
very strange freeware with sexual, politic and criminal aim that are far
from what this group is build for. They are legal, not time limited and free
!

Be seing you.

 

[Vic Dura]

I wonder if people aren't being overly complex in defining terms. To me,

I think not, Gord.

it should be this simple:

- freeware is any software that doesn't cost money to use
- betaware is any software that is in its pre-release stage
- payware is any software that requires payment in order to use all its
features.

I know it's not your intent, but by so obviously oversimplifying,
you include cracks as freeware, since they "[don't] cost money to use".

I think that is just a specious argument to justify the complicated
self-serving definition that you prefer.

Since this is not a warez group, it's a reasonable presumption that no
one is talking about stolen/pirated. In the rest of the world (or at
least the world I inhabit), when one talks about something being
"free" it is presumed not to include "stolen"; particularly since
"free" is the condition set by the source i.e. the legal owner, and
not by the recipient.

Why is it that in this forum you think that people would tend to
confuse "free" with "stolen" ? Are those the kind of people that you
think we have here? Do you have trouble differentiating between free
and stolen? I certainly don't think the folks in this NG are likely
to confuse them.

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

I know it's not your intent, but by so obviously oversimplifying,
you include cracks as freeware, since they "[don't] cost money to
use".

I think that is just a specious argument to justify the
complicated self-serving definition that you prefer.

Hardly specious. It was concise and made it clear that there was a
problem with the oversimple definition.

Since this is not a warez group, it's a reasonable presumption
that no one is talking about stolen/pirated. In the rest of the
world (or at least the world I inhabit), when one talks about
something being "free" it is presumed not to include "stolen";
particularly since "free" is the condition set by the source i.e.
the legal owner, and not by the recipient.

In the past, many have argued that if you don't have to pay money for
it, it is freeware. I'm glad you agree that it is more complicated
than that, which is only agreeing with the Shark's allegedly specious
argument. Watch out your don't end up serving his evil agenda.

Why is it that in this forum you think that people would tend to
confuse "free" with "stolen" ? Are those the kind of people that
you think we have here? Do you have trouble differentiating
between free and stolen? I certainly don't think the folks in
this NG are likely to confuse them.

Apparently you are not getting the thread about Kazaa Lite. Contact
your NSP.

 

[Gord McFee]

Hello,


Le 20/10/2003 à 08:10:51, Gord McFee écrivait :

- freeware is any software that doesn't cost money to use
- betaware is any software that is in its pre-release stage
- payware is any software that requires payment in order to use all its
features.

I know it's not your intent, but by so obviously oversimplifying,
you include cracks as freeware, since they "[don't] cost money to use".

Understood. I'll ponder some more.

While ? Don't let non rational people lead you to non rational position.

Don't worry, I'll come up with my irrational positions on my own.

Crackware and copies are freeware.
And they are even not illegal in some countries.
As Internet is international, crackware that has no time limitation is OK
here, following the present definition given by some people here.

Understood. But I have been using software for a long time, and have paid
for some very good software - especially shareware - and I do not think
cracks are appropriate (if by crack, you mean a program that has had its
registration code broken so a person doesn't have to pay for it). That may
be legal in some places, but it is not appropriate IMHO.

I agree with several people here, you included, that at the end of the day,
it comes down to a definitional issue and not an easy one to define. But
I still maintain that Dialog is freeware with time limit *for now*. In my
view, the time limit doesn't change the fact that it costs nothing.

I know there are some personal animosities in this newsgroup and that is a
pity; I try to stay out of it, but when you express any opinion, there will
always be someone who isn't going to agree.

 

[Gord McFee]

Hello,

Le 20/10/2003 à 08:10:51, Gord McFee écrivait :

- freeware is any software that doesn't cost money to use
- betaware is any software that is in its pre-release stage
- payware is any software that requires payment in order to use all its
features.

I know it's not your intent, but by so obviously oversimplifying,
you include cracks as freeware, since they "[don't] cost money to use".

Understood. I'll ponder some more.

While ? Don't let non rational people lead you to non rational position.

Don't worry, I'll come up with my irrational positions on my own.

Crackware and copies are freeware.
And they are even not illegal in some countries.
As Internet is international, crackware that has no time limitation is OK
here, following the present definition given by some people here.

Understood. But I have been using software for a long time, and have paid
for some very good software - especially shareware - and I do not think
cracks are appropriate (if by crack, you mean a program that has had its
registration code broken so a person doesn't have to pay for it). That may
be legal in some places, but it is not appropriate IMHO.

I agree with several people here, you included, that at the end of the day,
it comes down to a definitional issue and not an easy one to define. But
I still maintain that Dialog is freeware with time limit *for now*. In my
view, the time limit doesn't change the fact that it costs nothing.

I know there are some personal animosities in this newsgroup and that is a
pity; I try to stay out of it, but when you express any opinion, there will
always be someone who isn't going to agree.

 

[Blinky the Shark]

On 20 Oct 2003 01:26:37 GMT, in
<Blinky the Shark
wrote:

Gord McFee wrote:

I wonder if people aren't being overly complex in defining terms.
To me,

I think not, Gord.

it should be this simple:
- freeware is any software that doesn't cost money to use - betaware
is any software that is in its pre-release stage - payware is any
software that requires payment in order to use all its features.

I know it's not your intent, but by so obviously oversimplifying, you
include cracks as freeware, since they "[don't] cost money to use".

I hadn't even thought of that.

The group has. For years.

Understood. I'll ponder some more.

There's no way to make it as simple as you'd like. The group didn't
group set out to make this complex. It's the nature of the issue,
because all of the ways the authors and distributers have found to taint
what could otherwise be freeware have made it complex.

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

when you express any opinion, there will always be someone who
isn't going to agree.

You are wrong.



<g>

 

[Blinky the Shark]

Le 20/10/2003 à 08:10:51, Gord McFee écrivait :

On 20 Oct 2003 01:26:37 GMT, in

- freeware is any software that doesn't cost money to use
- betaware is any software that is in its pre-release stage
- payware is any software that requires payment in order to use all its
features.
I know it's not your intent, but by so obviously oversimplifying,
you include cracks as freeware, since they "[don't] cost money to use".

Understood. I'll ponder some more.

While ? Don't let non rational people lead you to non rational position.

Like you're about to?

Crackware and copies are freeware.

Not in this group. And it's this group's definition that matters in
this group. All that's free is not freeware. Here. That's rational.

 

[Blinky the Shark]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:50:02 +0200, in

Hello,
Le 20/10/2003 à 08:10:51, Gord McFee écrivait :

On 20 Oct 2003 01:26:37 GMT, in
- freeware is any software that doesn't cost money to use
- betaware is any software that is in its pre-release stage
- payware is any software that requires payment in order to use all its
features.
I know it's not your intent, but by so obviously oversimplifying,
you include cracks as freeware, since they "[don't] cost money to use".
Understood. I'll ponder some more.

While ? Don't let non rational people lead you to non rational position.

Don't worry, I'll come up with my irrational positions on my own.

Understood. But I have been using software for a long time, and have paid

He simply confuses free with freeware, and this group differentiates
between the two. Don't fall for it.

 

[DC]

The group didn't group set out to make this complex.

Your sentence structure makes it complex.

}:OP

 

[John Corliss]

< snip >

Then why haven't you complained about RegCleaner and numerous other
Betaware discussions here ?

Have I EVER said that betaware was totally off topic in this group?
No, I haven't. Unless it was before the group decided that it was okay
for discussion sometimes and I wrote that consensus into my version of
the F.A.Q. on the definitions page.
You, like most everybody else seem to confuse my wanting the
definition of freeware to remain undiluted with my opinions about what
I think (IMO) is appropriate for discussion in this group. The two are
separate and *very* distinct. And after all the times I've clarified
this point, why are you still confused?

Seems like you are happy to discuss them. Or do I need to quote posts
of yours where you have discussed/recommended betaware yourself ?
I wouldn't have to look too long would I ? Or are you going to say
that eg. Firebird isn't a beta release ?

Go ahead and waste your time doing so if you like. Again, I never said
that I think betaware is always off topic in this group. I only said
that it *isn't freeware.*

Certainly is.

No it is not. Freeware is not time-limited. Period. This doesn't mean
that there won't be a version of 40tude Dialog that IS freeware, it's
just that the currrent version ISN'T.

If a beta that is free will be replaced by equally free
versions until a free unlimited version.

You're basing it's being freeware on the author's intentions, which
though they are probably on the level, are still just that....
intentions. The 40tude Dialog issue opens the door for anybody to have
this group test their software for free, then at the last minute
change their mind and issue the final release as payware.

Why does this salient point elude you?

If you don't like Dialog then don't use it. Very simple. Leave the
rest of us to enjoy a very nice free newsreader.

You, John, rarely back off or hold back in expressing YOUR opinions,
why should I have to be any different?

Your trolling about Dialog is getting a bit boring John.

I think that you are perfectly aware that my intention in objecting to
40tude Dialog is not to provoke an emotional response in this group,
but rather to state my opinion. You just dropped this conversation
level to a new low. I thought that we had gotten past the name calling
stage by now.

Guess I was wrong.

--
John Corliss
alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.:
http://www.ccountry.net/~jcorliss/F.A.Q./FrameSet1.html
Note that I can't see any of Andy Mabbett's troll posts
because I have him killfiled.

 

[Blinky the Shark]

Your sentence structure makes it complex.

I believe believe you're right!

 

[Alastair Smeaton]

You're basing it's being freeware on the author's intentions, which
though they are probably on the level, are still just that....
intentions. The 40tude Dialog issue opens the door for anybody to have
this group test their software for free, then at the last minute
change their mind and issue the final release as payware.

Why does this salient point elude you?

I find this interesting. Having avoided taking sides here, I would
make one point.

The author of dialogue has now put a warning on his web page stating
the timeout and why he has written it that way.

Yes, we have to trust him that he will produce another "freely
available" beta version, and that he will issue a final "freeware"
release (am I being careful enough here

But - at least he is (now) up front about this. What about Innoculate
It ? Was freeware (pricelessware if I remember correctly) yet turned
out to be a ply to have us beta test their payware software.

But - because it did not time out, it was regarded as freeware.

The point I am trying to make is that in the definition of freeware,
and what we should talk about in this group, maybe there is an element
of trust involved. Almost all software can become payware (JV16
powertools ?)

I personally think that the time limit is not a problem - if I trust
him - and I do. This is very different from time limited demos of
shareware and payware products, the likes of which used to appear on
magazine discs.

Maybe the main point is this trust issue - you either trust
fortitude, or you don't - you don't pay your money and you take your
choice

 

[Vic Dura]

Apparently you are not getting the thread about Kazaa Lite. Contact
your NSP.

I saw the thread about Kazaa Lite but didn't follow it since I don't
know what Kazaa is. Some sort of file or music "share" software?

 

[SINNER]

* Blinky the Shark Wrote in alt.comp.freeware, on 20 Oct 2003 19:21:55 GMT:

Gord McFee wrote:

(e-mail address removed)>, Alain Guérin wrote:

[...]

Understood. But I have been using software for a long time, and have paid

He simply confuses free with freeware, and this group differentiates
between the two. Don't fall for it.

Plenty of stuff over at Souceforge falls under the FREEWARE license AND
is considered Beta. saying Betaware IS NOT freeware is simply not true,
now if you want to qualify it with Time Limited Betaware isnt Freeware
that would seem easier to swallow although again, not entirely true,
especially when the author of said software already stated that when the
beta is over there will indeed be a freeware version.

But simply saying ALL Betaware IS NOT freeware is an over
generalization and MAY or MAYNOT be true depending on the license.

--
David | AGM Favorite Games - http://tinyurl.com/loec
Listen, you big, stupid space-creature. Nobody, but nobody, eats the
Simpsons!

-- Homer Simpson
Treehouse of Horror

 

[Harvey Van Sickle]

Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:09:31 -0700
John Corliss ha scritto:
<snip>
We were speaking about the possibility to vote or not, then I
used the adjective "taliban" as synonymous of "anti-democratic".
I thought it was obvious.

[/QUOTE]

No, I'm afraid it wasn't.

FWIW, it was obvious to this lurking reader of the thread.

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

I saw the thread about Kazaa Lite but didn't follow it since I don't
know what Kazaa is. Some sort of file or music "share" software?

Yeah, it is P2P file-transferring software, a cracked version of the
ad/spyware Kazaa Media Desktop, of which there is also an ad-free
payware version. There are quite a few posts in that thread about what
freeware is or is not.