Response from the author of 40tude Dialog

  • Thread starter Thread starter John Corliss
  • Start date Start date
ARE YOU ACCUSING ME OF USING A SOCK PUPPET ? shame on you john, i thought
you had more common sense than that.
 
it was. again, JC micro-defines the freeware definition. so far no one has
came to his defense this time.
 
You are simply missing the point. *ANY* time-limited VERSION of a
program can't be considered to be freeware because it violates the
basic definition of freeware that this group has agreed to:
Click to expand...

And you are missing the point that many people here dispute the
so-called "basic definition of freeware" that you seem to think
everyone accepts. IMO the FAQ that you keep referring to is a
convoluted monstrosity that has taken a simple concept like "free
software" and mangled to the point that it's sole purpose seems to be
its use as a rational for telling people that they are off-topic.

Add to that you insistence that anyone who disagrees with you is a
troll, sock-puppet or freeware saboteur and you have the perfect
ingredients for flame festivals.
 
2) There is no overwhelming consensus for the definition of "freeware"
contained in the faq.
Click to expand...

A consensus was arrived at when the FAQs were done.
Certainly some people agree with it, but
certainly there is also a substantial amount of disagreement as
evidenced by the amount of controversy ignited each time someone tries
to limit discussion in the NG based on the strictures contained in the
faq.
Click to expand...

Just as there is substantial disagreement, generally due to yourself
and/or sock puppets there is substantial agreement.

Everyone knows that your idea of an "invalid" vote is one that
disagrees with your opinion. So why not just give it a rest ? Your
constantly wanting to ignore the vote taken and have things your
way gets rather boring rather quickly.
 
A consensus was arrived at when the FAQs were done.


Just as there is substantial disagreement, generally due to yourself
and/or sock puppets there is substantial agreement.
Click to expand...

You saying that if you disagree with the FAQ you are either Vic Dura or a
'sock puppet'. That's a ridiculous attitude to take.
 
Marcus also says on the download page that 'The final (non-beta)
version 2.0 will not be time limited and will still be freeware.'
Click to expand...

Fine, if and when the (non-beta) non-time-limited version comes out, go
ahead and recommend it at that time. Until then, it's all speculation.
Because of that it shouldn't be a problem to recommend it in ACF.
Click to expand...

The version that exists *today* is not freeware. What someone may or may
not do in the future is irrelevant.
 
Malu' said:
Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:09:31 -0700
John Corliss ha scritto:







We were speaking about the possibility to vote or not, then I used the
adjective "taliban" as synonymous of "anti-democratic".
I thought it was obvious.
Click to expand...

No, I'm afraid it wasn't.

--
Regards from John Corliss
alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.:
http://www.ccountry.net/~jcorliss/F.A.Q./FrameSet1.html
Note that I can't see any of Andy Mabbett's troll posts
because I have him killfiled.
 
Klaatu said:
Fine, if and when the (non-beta) non-time-limited version comes out, go
ahead and recommend it at that time. Until then, it's all speculation.
The version that exists *today* is not freeware. What someone may or may
not do in the future is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Klaatu,

THANK YOU!! That was exactly what I've been trying to say.

--
Regards from John Corliss
alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.:
http://www.ccountry.net/~jcorliss/F.A.Q./FrameSet1.html
Note that I can't see any of Andy Mabbett's troll posts
because I have him killfiled.
 
The version that exists *today* is not freeware. What someone may or may
not do in the future is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

The current release is time limited freeware. The full release will be
time unlimited freeware. Notice that last word ? You should be able to
grasp the concept if you try hard.

As for it being a "beta". Many beta programs are discussed/
recommended here.
 
The current release is time limited freeware.
Click to expand...

If it's time limited, it can't be freeware.
The full release will be time unlimited freeware.
Click to expand...

So it's been said. And it's irrelevant. If Microsoft said MS Office 13
would be freeware, would that make the current version of MS Office
freeware? No, or course not.
Notice that last word ? You should be able to grasp the concept
if you try hard.
Click to expand...

Stooping a bit low, John? Try to stick to making arguments for your point
of view please, if you think your position can be defended.
 
18 Oct 2003 18:22:35 GMT
Klaatu ha scritto:
So it's been said. And it's irrelevant. If Microsoft said MS Office 13
would be freeware, would that make the current version of MS Office
freeware? No, or course not.
Click to expand...

Does MS tell you that the current version of MS Office is freeare (even if
time-limited until next version) and give you a free download?
 
If it's time limited, it can't be freeware.
Click to expand...
So it's been said. And it's irrelevant. If Microsoft said MS Office 13
would be freeware, would that make the current version of MS Office
freeware? No, or course not.
Click to expand...

The current release of MS Office isn't freeware. The current release
of Dialog is. :-)
 
Hello,


Le 18/10/2003 à 20:22:35, Klaatu écrivait :
If it's time limited, it can't be freeware.
Click to expand...

If a payware is time limited, is not it a payware ?

The problem is not what is a freeware, but what you (and some others) want
to discuss here.

I agree that the groups does not have to deviate, but if we all are
objective, it is clear that Dialog is for the time being a very usefull peace
of free sofware in beta version that will be delivered as freeware in its
final version. So, in my mind, and even if I prefer to have only *one* non
moderated group to discuss *one* software ( news.software.readers in
that case ), I see no problem to discuss here from something that is not
a pitfall in any way and not a try to trick people with hidden advertising or
addiction for a commercial software for private people.

Lows are not build for themselve but to aim a goal.
If Dialog does not follow the rule, please, change the rule or do what every
people do with bad rules: ignore it.
 
John said:
The current release of MS Office isn't freeware. The current release
of Dialog is. :-)
Click to expand...

I disagree John. The current release of 40tude Dialog is time-limited
betaware. Betaware isn't freeware and neither is *any* other type of
time-limited software.

--
Regards from John Corliss
alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.:
http://www.ccountry.net/~jcorliss/F.A.Q./FrameSet1.html
Note that I can't see any of Andy Mabbett's troll posts
because I have him killfiled.
 
Alain said:
If a payware is time limited, is not it a payware ?
Click to expand...

That's irrelevant. This group is for the discussion of freeware, not
payware.
The problem is not what is a freeware, but what you (and some others) want
to discuss here.
Click to expand...

How can you not understand that what is appropriate to discuss here is
intimately linked with what is defined as freeware and what this group
has decided is acceptable to discuss here?
I agree that the groups does not have to deviate, but if we all are
objective, it is clear that Dialog is for the time being a very usefull peace
of free sofware in beta version that will be delivered as freeware in its
final version. So, in my mind, and even if I prefer to have only *one* non
moderated group to discuss *one* software ( news.software.readers in
that case ), I see no problem to discuss here from something that is not
a pitfall in any way
Click to expand...

The "pitfall" is that it is time-limited!
and not a try to trick people with hidden advertising or
addiction for a commercial software for private people.

Lows are not build for themselve but to aim a goal.
If Dialog does not follow the rule, please, change the rule or do what every
people do with bad rules: ignore it.
Click to expand...

Callously ignore the guidelines that the majority of this group has
agreed to at your own peril.

There are no "rules" in this group because it's unmoderated. There are
only guidelines and the group is self governing. That's not going to
change. Starting threads about shareware, commercialware, warez, etc.
will always get a person flamed or at least result in the pointing out
that the post is off topic.

--
Regards from John Corliss
alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.:
http://www.ccountry.net/~jcorliss/F.A.Q./FrameSet1.html
Note that I can't see any of Andy Mabbett's troll posts
because I have him killfiled.
 
I disagree John. The current release of 40tude Dialog is
time-limited betaware. Betaware isn't freeware and neither is
*any* other type of time-limited software.
Click to expand...

There are many kinds of non-freeware (using the pure definition found
in your version of the FAQ, with which I agree) that are acceptable
to discuss here. IMO, Dialog is fine to discuss here, at least now
that Marcus has been badgered over in n.s.r into clarifying some
things.

(1) He intends to release a non-expiring non-beta freeware version
as soon as he can, and is working hard on it.

(2) The release version will have all the features of the latest
beta before the release version, not just the features of the
first beta.

(3) He does not have any plans at this time to release a commercial
version at all.

Whether or not one takes him at his word is up to the individual, but
I don't see any reason not to. And I don't see any reason to argue
with those who do. If he goes back on his word on points 1 or 2 (and
I don't think he will), he'll catch a hell of a backlash here as well
as in n.s.r at that point.

In the meantime, before a release version, I see the discussion of
Dialog in a.c.f as promoting freeware development.

Again, I don't consider these time-limited betas to be freeware, and
I think anyone recommending them here should point out the
limitation. I'd vote against them as Pricelessware, waiting for a
time-unlimited version.
 
Alain Guérin wrote:

That's irrelevant. This group is for the discussion of freeware, not
payware.
Click to expand...

You've side-steped the question. I think the point Alain is making is
that weather or not something is free is does not change when a time
limit is put on it. It may be time limited, but it's still free.
How can you not understand that what is appropriate to discuss here is
intimately linked with what is defined as freeware and what this group
has decided is acceptable to discuss here?
Click to expand...

When did this group decide this? Let me recall now. Nearly 4 years
ago. How many of those people are still here? Obviously a lot of
people are disagree on this point, judging from the posts in this
thread.
The "pitfall" is that it is time-limited!
Click to expand...

And the time-limit doesn't change the fact that it is free.
Callously ignore the guidelines that the majority of this group has
agreed to at your own peril.
Click to expand...

How about ignoring the "guidelines" because one disagrees with them
and this is an un-moderated group and thus one is not required to
agree with them. I had always considered guidelines to be optional in
that one could follow them or not. Yet you indicated that one is in
"peril" if he doesn't follow them. That doesn't sound like a
guideline. It sounds like a rule.
There are no "rules" in this group because it's unmoderated. There are
only guidelines and the group is self governing. That's not going to
change. Starting threads about shareware, commercialware, warez, etc.
will always get a person flamed or at least result in the pointing out
that the post is off topic.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree with you here.
 
John Fitzsimons wrote:
Click to expand...
I disagree John. The current release of 40tude Dialog is time-limited
betaware. Betaware isn't freeware
Click to expand...

< snip >

Then why haven't you complained about RegCleaner and numerous other
Betaware discussions here ?

Seems like you are happy to discuss them. Or do I need to quote posts
of yours where you have discussed/recommended betaware yourself ?

I wouldn't have to look too long would I ? Or are you going to say
that eg. Firebird isn't a beta release ?
and neither is *any* other type of time-limited software.
Click to expand...

Certainly is. If a beta that is free will be replaced by equally free
versions until a free unlimited version.

If you don't like Dialog then don't use it. Very simple. Leave the
rest of us to enjoy a very nice free newsreader. :-)

Your trolling about Dialog is getting a bit boring John.

Regards, John.
 
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