A
Arthur Entlich
Doesn't look like a bathtub to me ;-)
Art
Art
T
TJ
I see a lot of property damage, but I don't see any compressed bathtubs,NotMe said:
either. I do know about the physics of a straw driven into a wood pole
or tree by the wind, though, and I know it does happen.
No one questions the level of destruction in the Katrina-affected area.
But the fact remains that things were made worse in New Orleans because
it was built below sea level, just as things were made worse for Pompeii
because it was built on the side of Vesuvius. But build in places like
those people will, time after time.
Disasters of one sort or another occur everywhere. Floods, hurricanes,
wildfires, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, blizzards, acts of war,
terrorist attacks, asteroid collisions, global warming/cooling (choose
your faith) - the list goes on and on. Nowhere is completely safe. Data
backup is a great idea. A remote backup of critical data is an even
better idea. Multiple backups in multiple remote locations may border on
overkill, but it depends on the nature of your business. It's only
prudent, but thinking you can protect yourself against anything that
could happen is living in a dream world.
TJ
R
Richard Steinfeld
Michael Johnson wrote:
Michael, this person cannot be bothered to communicate with other
people. He's speaking in riddles (bathtubs, yeah, right) and answering
in other riddles. I give a person one shot at making himself clear
before canning him. He's living in his head and jerking off at us. Don't
bother trying to reason with him; probably just measher...
Michael, move on. This is just a waste of electrons, which is his game.
Richard
Michael, this person cannot be bothered to communicate with other
people. He's speaking in riddles (bathtubs, yeah, right) and answering
in other riddles. I give a person one shot at making himself clear
before canning him. He's living in his head and jerking off at us. Don't
bother trying to reason with him; probably just measher...
Michael, move on. This is just a waste of electrons, which is his game.
Richard
R
Richard Steinfeld
Arthur Entlich wrote:
Arthur, this guy is trolling. Plonk him.
Richard
Arthur, this guy is trolling. Plonk him.
Richard
R
Richard Steinfeld
Arthur said:
Having worked in audio for a long time, the trustworthiness of media is
somthing that has mattered to me. I used to trust Maxell and TDK
implicitely: their recording tape was the best. Those days are gone. I
do use software that reveals the disk manufacturer. It's not that rare.
For example, the free program "Exact Audio Copy" will show you. I have
Fuji disks made by four different companies, none of them Fuji. My Sony
experience duplicates yours, except that the country was Taiwan; I
forgot the manufacturer, and my cheap CD-alarm clock and my car stereo
both give audible read errors with these disks, because _the disks are
not round!_ Plonk Sony. I'm certain that TDK video cassettes have ruined
my two best VCRs; I heard the friction in the shells in disbelief.
Ironically, the prices of cheap disks have gone up of late. I use them
for short-term stuff, although I avoid the really cheap junk.
The only CDRs I'm using for anything that I want to keep these days are
made by Taiyo Yuden, in Japan. I have some premium Maxells that are made
by TY, but why pay the premium price when I can get the same disks under
the manufacturer's imprint for a lot less in bulk? God only knows who
Memorex is this month -- last I looked, they were located in Hong Kong,
with legal HQ in the Cayman Islands, and their CEO was getting busted
for fraud. Check it out. Many consumer brands are just empty marketing
shells that are licensed out. RCA, GE (consumer electronics), Memorex,
IBM, Timex, HP (paper, CDRs) lease out their trademarks to others in
unrelated businesses; RCA merchandise at Radio Shack is just ordinary
Radio Shack stuff. RCA (and that part of GE)is a trademark of Thomson, a
French company manufacturing in China, and farming out their brand, too.
These name-brand media companies have changed into marketing shysters
trading on their old image: they disgust me.
Richard
M
Michael Johnson
Richard said:
What can I say, it's been a slow week.
A
Arthur Entlich
Many of your experiences mirror my own, and that is why I was suggesting
that "brand name" means little these days when electronics are
concerned, and moreso with consumables.
Art
that "brand name" means little these days when electronics are
concerned, and moreso with consumables.
Art
M
measekite
Arthur said:
Brand name means quite a bit. You usually get better service and the
product usually has less trouble. There is also better consistency.
N
NotMe
"TJ"
| > | > | >> http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24331220.jpg
| > | > | > What the hell kind of a non-communicative answer is this
supposed to be?
| > | > | >
| > | > | > Jesus X, another one for the kill file.
| > | > |
| > | > | I didn't see one compressed bathtub in that picture.
| > | >
| > | > You must work for FEMA as you clearly miss the obvious.
| > |
| > | I think the obvious thing here is that you tend to exaggerate.
| >
| > Ok then completely ignore what I have said about back ups. You'll learn
early or late but learn you will.
| >
| >
| I see a lot of property damage, but I don't see any compressed bathtubs,
| either. I do know about the physics of a straw driven into a wood pole
| or tree by the wind, though, and I know it does happen.
|
| No one questions the level of destruction in the Katrina-affected area.
| But the fact remains that things were made worse in New Orleans because
| it was built below sea level, just as things were made worse for Pompeii
| because it was built on the side of Vesuvius. But build in places like
| those people will, time after time.
|
| Disasters of one sort or another occur everywhere. Floods, hurricanes,
| wildfires, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, blizzards, acts of war,
| terrorist attacks, asteroid collisions, global warming/cooling (choose
| your faith) - the list goes on and on. Nowhere is completely safe. Data
| backup is a great idea. A remote backup of critical data is an even
| better idea. Multiple backups in multiple remote locations may border on
| overkill, but it depends on the nature of your business. It's only
| prudent, but thinking you can protect yourself against anything that
| could happen is living in a dream world.
|
Multiple back ups in more than one location are cheap.
This is OT but the problems in NOLA were predicted and the technology to
prevent the deviation was available (Much of Holland is likewise below sea
level and based on a storm flood event many years ago has been hardened to
the inevitable.)
FWIW the corps of engineers made a cost/benefit analysis that assumed NOLA
would never see a Cat 5 storm. Only problem there were previous CAT 5
storms in the past 30 to 50 years. In one levee there were engineering
reports reflecting the weakness that were ignored for up to 20 years.
Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the levee failures occurred AFTER the
storm had abated to a CAT 1 or 2 level.
As to the power of the storm and compressed bath tubs. Tubs are usually
large and white. Every house has one often more. Did you see any complete,
undamaged tubs in the rubble? Might consider that a white elephant of a tub
should be quite evident but a bent metal ball not so evident.
Perhaps I should mention that I've lived through hurricanes for over 50
years and this one was the first were I observed crushed metal bath tubs.
It is also the first time I have observed a total failure of our national
govenment to respond effectively.
| > | > | >> http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24331220.jpg
| > | > | > What the hell kind of a non-communicative answer is this
supposed to be?
| > | > | >
| > | > | > Jesus X, another one for the kill file.
| > | > |
| > | > | I didn't see one compressed bathtub in that picture.
| > | >
| > | > You must work for FEMA as you clearly miss the obvious.
| > |
| > | I think the obvious thing here is that you tend to exaggerate.
| >
| > Ok then completely ignore what I have said about back ups. You'll learn
early or late but learn you will.
| >
| >
| I see a lot of property damage, but I don't see any compressed bathtubs,
| either. I do know about the physics of a straw driven into a wood pole
| or tree by the wind, though, and I know it does happen.
|
| No one questions the level of destruction in the Katrina-affected area.
| But the fact remains that things were made worse in New Orleans because
| it was built below sea level, just as things were made worse for Pompeii
| because it was built on the side of Vesuvius. But build in places like
| those people will, time after time.
|
| Disasters of one sort or another occur everywhere. Floods, hurricanes,
| wildfires, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, blizzards, acts of war,
| terrorist attacks, asteroid collisions, global warming/cooling (choose
| your faith) - the list goes on and on. Nowhere is completely safe. Data
| backup is a great idea. A remote backup of critical data is an even
| better idea. Multiple backups in multiple remote locations may border on
| overkill, but it depends on the nature of your business. It's only
| prudent, but thinking you can protect yourself against anything that
| could happen is living in a dream world.
|
Multiple back ups in more than one location are cheap.
This is OT but the problems in NOLA were predicted and the technology to
prevent the deviation was available (Much of Holland is likewise below sea
level and based on a storm flood event many years ago has been hardened to
the inevitable.)
FWIW the corps of engineers made a cost/benefit analysis that assumed NOLA
would never see a Cat 5 storm. Only problem there were previous CAT 5
storms in the past 30 to 50 years. In one levee there were engineering
reports reflecting the weakness that were ignored for up to 20 years.
Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the levee failures occurred AFTER the
storm had abated to a CAT 1 or 2 level.
As to the power of the storm and compressed bath tubs. Tubs are usually
large and white. Every house has one often more. Did you see any complete,
undamaged tubs in the rubble? Might consider that a white elephant of a tub
should be quite evident but a bent metal ball not so evident.
Perhaps I should mention that I've lived through hurricanes for over 50
years and this one was the first were I observed crushed metal bath tubs.
It is also the first time I have observed a total failure of our national
govenment to respond effectively.
M
Michael Johnson
NotMe said:
One other issue with New Orleans is that it is sinking. What might have
been adequate 30 years ago may not be today because the whole area is
lower, including the levies. The sober fact is that New Orleans should
not be rebuilt. Why should the rest of the country pay to rebuild a
city that is going to flood again someday? It doesn't make sense to me.
For what this is costing we could build a new city ABOVE SEA LEVEL and
be ahead financially. Then let the destroyed areas of New Orleans be
what God intended, a wetland salt marsh.
From what I have read the levies weren't over topped by the storm but
failed for structural reasons. Had they been sound then the flooding
would have been minimal. One thing I read that totally blew my mind was
the pumping stations did not have backup electrical generators in case
there was a power failure. WTF were they thinking!?!? If this was the
case not only was the CoE negligent but so was the City of NO. Had the
pump houses been water proofed and operable with backup generators the
damage would have been much less severe.
The resolution of that photograph isn't good enough to see a tub,
uncompressed or otherwise. Are you saying every tub was compressed into
one foot diameter balls?
What about the total failure of state and local governments to respond
and evacuate the affected areas? Then consider the responsibility of
every citizen to be responsible for themselves and not rely solely on
government (all levels) for your safety. Don't just lay this at the
feet of FEMA and the Federal Government. There is plenty of blame to go
around.
Then after his colossal screw ups they re-elect Ray Nagin as mayor of
New Orleans! The Federal Government is not intended to be the first
responders in disasters. that is the job of local and state disaster
entities. Much of FEMA's problems were amplified by the TOTAL breakdown
of the local and state emergency response systems. All you need to do
is look at how Florida handles these situations to see just how
unprepared local and state governments were in the effected areas of New
Orleans, Louisiana and Mississippi.
The fact is that New Orleans has become just another battleground
between the Republicans and Democrats. Once that happens forget about
finding out the truth of the situation. The sad thing is the only ones
who get hurt from this disaster becoming a political pissing match are
the people who really need help the most. BTW, what political party
runs New Orleans and the State of Louisiana? Maybe they are quick to
blame President Bush and FEMA so the spotlight won't be on their
extremely poor performance before, during and after the crisis? Like I
said, there is plenty of blame to go around.
T
TJ
A remark attributed to one of the Gemini or Apollo astronauts comes toNotMe said:
mind. According to the story, just before launch he turned to his
companions and brought up the fact that they were trusting their lives
to something built by the lowest bidder on a government contract. The
same is true of NOLA, as well as many other communities across the
country, like the folks in Minneapolis that drove across that bridge day
after day.
Yes, the levees were inadequate, and they'd received inadequate
maintenance. But that's not just the fault of the federal government.
NOLA must accept responsibility, too. But even if they designed and
built the levees to withstand a category 5 hurricane, sooner or later
one that would be a category 6 (were there such a category) would come
along. If the people of NOLA want to make it completely safe from
hurricanes, they'll need to move it to Minnesota. Of course, then there
would be tornadoes and blizzards to worry about...
I see a lot of white blotches that are more or less rectangular. Some
are larger and could be cars, but others are smaller. They could be
bathtubs, doors that blew off, small roof sections, pieces of wall, any
number of things.
Must be you expected the national government to swoop in and usurp the
responsibilities of local government. I really don't think that's what
you want. The problem came while the various "leaders" flopped about
deciding who was in charge of what. Had they simply cooperated with each
other, or if one effective leader had been there, much could have been
different. It wouldn't have mattered much which party the leader had
been from, either. Unfortunately, though, even good leadership can't
turn away a hurricane.
TJ
T
TJ
Bunk. "Brand name" means much less these days than it used to.measekite said:
I bought an Elgin electric watch once. Early in the twentieth century
Elgin had one of the foremost reputations among watchmakers, but things
were different by the 1970s. The watch broke down after a year or so,
and I took it to a jeweler to be repaired. He told me that Elgins just
weren't what they used to be, that it wasn't worth repairing because it
would just break down again within the year. He called most Elgin
watches junk.
I've heard the same about other name brands over the years, names with
old, seemingly solid reputations that get sold or taken over, only to
have the new owners ruin that reputation with shoddy quality. I now have
little trust in brands when I have no personal experience with them.
TJ
N
NotMe
"Michael Johnson"
| > | I see a lot of property damage, but I don't see any compressed
bathtubs, either. I do know about the physics of a straw driven into a wood
pole or tree by the wind, though, and I know it does happen.
| > |
| > | No one questions the level of destruction in the Katrina-affected
area. But the fact remains that things were made worse in New Orleans
because it was built below sea level, just as things were made worse for
Pompeii because it was built on the side of Vesuvius. But build in places
like those people will, time after time.
| > |
| > | Disasters of one sort or another occur everywhere. Floods, hurricanes,
| > | wildfires, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, blizzards, acts of war,
| > | terrorist attacks, asteroid collisions, global warming/cooling (choose
| > | your faith) - the list goes on and on. Nowhere is completely safe.
Data backup is a great idea. A remote backup of critical data is an even
| > | better idea. Multiple backups in multiple remote locations may border
on overkill, but it depends on the nature of your business. It's only
| > | prudent, but thinking you can protect yourself against anything that
| > | could happen is living in a dream world.
| > |
| >
| > This is OT but the problems in NOLA were predicted and the technology to
| > prevent the deviation was available (Much of Holland is likewise below
sea level and based on a storm flood event many years ago has been hardened
to the inevitable.)
| >
| > FWIW the corps of engineers made a cost/benefit analysis that assumed
NOLA would never see a Cat 5 storm. Only problem there were previous CAT 5
storms in the past 30 to 50 years. In one levee there were engineering
reports reflecting the weakness that were ignored for up to 20 years.
|
| One other issue with New Orleans is that it is sinking. What might have
| been adequate 30 years ago may not be today because the whole area is
| lower, including the levies. The sober fact is that New Orleans should
| not be rebuilt. Why should the rest of the country pay to rebuild a
| city that is going to flood again someday? It doesn't make sense to me.
| For what this is costing we could build a new city ABOVE SEA LEVEL and
| be ahead financially. Then let the destroyed areas of New Orleans be
| what God intended, a wetland salt marsh.
Two bits of information. All of NOLA is NOT below sea level. The original
site selected in the 1700's has never flooded even in the case of Katrina.
Second only part of the city is sinking and that area was cheaply (read
poorly) built up though land fill/dredge pumping.
There are well known engineering techniques to address those issue. As a
case example the oil companies employed best engineering practices in the
foundations and levees of the refineries and other facilities. These were
not subject to sinking or flooding.
Regardless there are other areas of the world that are likewise below sea
level. Those that have taken the proper precautions to prevent flooding
have not been subject to much damage from flooding.
At one time the pumps (14 ft diameter screw pumps) that drain NOLA had the
motors that drove the pumps mounted above any possible surge/flood level.
Bean counters got involved and to save the cost of the elevated foundations
put the motors at the same level as the pumps i.e. below the NOAA identified
flood levels.
| > Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the levee failures occurred AFTER
the storm had abated to a CAT 1 or 2 level.
|
| From what I have read the levies weren't over topped by the storm but
| failed for structural reasons. Had they been sound then the flooding
| would have been minimal. One thing I read that totally blew my mind was
| the pumping stations did not have backup electrical generators in case
| there was a power failure. WTF were they thinking!?!? If this was the
| case not only was the CoE negligent but so was the City of NO. Had the
| pump houses been water proofed and operable with backup generators the
| damage would have been much less severe.
You are quite correct in the fact that there were structural failures.
These were problems that were identified and reported 20+ years ago. The
feds, through the CoE, refused to fund the needed upgrades justifying that
failure with a cost benefit analysis. (Understand you need CoE approval and
permits to do anything near much less to the levees)
If this type of failure occurred in civilian projects the engineers involved
would at the very least lose their licenses and perhaps faced jail time.
But since the design work was done under the color of employment with the
government no one is accountable.
In another instance the firm doing the work identified problems with the sub
soil but since the project was bid and funded the CoE 'declined' to approve
the additional work required to make the site secure.
| > As to the power of the storm and compressed bath tubs. Tubs are usually
| > large and white. Every house has one often more. Did you see any
complete, undamaged tubs in the rubble? Might consider that a white elephant
of a tub should be quite evident but a bent metal ball not so evident.
| The resolution of that photograph isn't good enough to see a tub,
| uncompressed or otherwise. Are you saying every tub was compressed into
| one foot diameter balls?
An aside and a small matter: If the resolution isn't good enough to see a
full size tub why did someone claim that my report was in error because the
viewer could not find a compressed tub?
It may be that I'm very familiar with the area but I can identity objects
the size of a bath tub from those photos and used that data to identify the
flow of 'stuff' from the storm surge. It was only after that lack was
mentioned that I looked for evidence of bath tubs, finding none.
All tubs that I saw on the ground in the area were compressed as were riding
lawn mowers, heavy equipment and other items that one would normally
consider unlikely candidates for 'compression' including 12 inch structural
steel I beams.
Oddly enough refrigerators are scattered far and wide. We found one, that
we could identity, 9 miles inland. And while trashed were unique in that the
majority did not suffer much damage.
Perhaps because these tend to float?
| > Perhaps I should mention that I've lived through hurricanes for over 50
| > years and this one was the first were I observed crushed metal bath
tubs. It is also the first time I have observed a total failure of our
national government to respond effectively.
|
| What about the total failure of state and local governments to respond
| and evacuate the affected areas? Then consider the responsibility of
| every citizen to be responsible for themselves and not rely solely on
| government (all levels) for your safety. Don't just lay this at the
| feet of FEMA and the Federal Government. There is plenty of blame to go
| around.
The vast majority of those that could get out did got out and quickly. Many
of those that did not, did not have the physical ability, transport or the
money for gas if they did. (Banks were closed and ATMs were drained
regardless, pay day was three days off)
Much was made of Nagin not using school busses to evacuate those without
transport. The problem with that
was that the bus drivers had evacuated.
You can hammer Nagin for a lot of things (I do as a matter of course as we
still have property there but that's another story) but no one seems to
understand that the DOME was NOT constructed to be used as a shelter and was
specifically ruled out as a place of safety in the planning. At the last
second Nagin opened the DOME as a shelter of last option. If he had not the
death toll would have been much higher.
What most don't understand if you were on the east side of NOLA and your
home on the west side it was not practical to go home, then evacuate. As a
result we had extend family scattered from Texas to the Carolinas up to I40.
| Then after his colossal screw ups they re-elect Ray Nagin as mayor of
| New Orleans! The Federal Government is not intended to be the first
| responders in disasters. that is the job of local and state disaster
| entities. Much of FEMA's problems were amplified by the TOTAL breakdown
| of the local and state emergency response systems. All you need to do
| is look at how Florida handles these situations to see just how
| unprepared local and state governments were in the effected areas of New
| Orleans, Louisiana and Mississippi.
|
| The fact is that New Orleans has become just another battleground
| between the Republicans and Democrats. Once that happens forget about
| finding out the truth of the situation. The sad thing is the only ones
| who get hurt from this disaster becoming a political pissing match are
| the people who really need help the most. BTW, what political party
| runs New Orleans and the State of Louisiana? Maybe they are quick to
| blame President Bush and FEMA so the spotlight won't be on their
| extremely poor performance before, during and after the crisis? Like I
| said, there is plenty of blame to go around.
Feds are not the first responders, a that task typically falls to the NG.
(obviously not an option as they were deployed elsewhere) but the feds are
expected to and have historically responded within 24 hours.
Lets see: Before the current LA governor (Dem) there were several governors
that were Republican. Nagin is likewise Republican. In the most recent
city election (recall Nagin was reelected) the majority of those available
to vote were well to do Republicans. (many I know personally as we went to
school together). As to the opposing candidate might consider that many
considered the alternative much less appealing.
Power structure in Jefferson Parish (just up river from NOLA) is likewise
Republican as are more than a few of the other delta parishes.
The claim by FEMA is that they could not get relief supplies into the city
due to flooding.
FEMA claims not to know about the problem for three days. As Ted Kopple
asked: Did FEMA not watch TV or read the emails from the on site staff?
Lets see: The news media were going in and out with out much problem. I
know of two companies that sent 80,000 gallons of fresh water to New Orleans
by tanker truck (think milk trucks) as soon as the information was out about
the water shortage. FEMA turned them around on the roadway along the east
bank docks/wharves (BTW this area is ABOVE sea level and did not flood) less
than 5 miles from the DOME. (Before you ask the route was the River Road on
the west bank of the Mississippi via the Huey Long Bridge in Jefferson
Parish then along the River Road to uptown New Orleans and then along the
river docks to the convention center and Super Dome. BTW the route is not
new as it was used by the pirate Jean Lafitte and by the Indians before the
white man came to the area.
Several river barge companies offered to send tanker barges (think a volume
of water the size of a foot ball field 10 foot deep and that in one barge).
Down stream trip time is less than 24 hours from Baton Rough harbor to the
NOLA convention center. There was likewise offers to haul relief supplies
the same way. Big tow boats regularly carry more than 600 box car loads in
a single tow. While I doubt that 600 box car volume would have been
practical more than an adequate volume of relief supplies should be able to
be transported by containers or even trailers strapped to the deck.
The US military had relief supplies into Alaska within < 24 hours after the
earth quake decades ago using WWII cargo aircraft, (incidentally the
supplies were sent from Bell Chase NAS, south of NOLA.
We can air drop emergency food from Germany into Afghanistan in less than 24
hours but can't get aircraft from anywhere in the centennial USA to the Gulf
Coast in less than a week?
Wall-Mart had truck loads (notice the 's') in the area in less than 36 hours
but FEMA won't let them enter NOLA.
Airboats and other small water craft DESIGNED to work in swamps and back
waters are as common as golf carts in a retirement community. Those were
available to help in the rescue work and can operate safely in a few inches
of water. Opps permission denied.
A Baptist's Men's group in USA routinely send water purification equipment
world wide in < 24 hours. FEMA refused them access to NOLA.
The US responded to the tsunami with vessels, equipment and supplies on site
within 24 hours. A hospital ship and other capital ships from the NE were
not dispatched to Katrina for a more than a week.
Out of state volunteer physicians at New Orleans airport (under federal
control at the time) were threatened with arrest because they were not
licensed to practice in Louisiana.
No transport for those stranded at the superdome but someone did find busses
to evacuate all the guest and their luggage from the big money hotels.
US Coast Guard was hampered by the lack of fuel for the choppers but there
was ample fuel to run AF-One. Regardless one of the largest refineries in
the country (EXXON Baton Rough) had ample supplies of fuel used in the turbo
engines of the CG choppers and standing offers from the barge companies to
ship to the area. Loading and transport time < 24 hours likely better.
Nothing much happened with regard to a proper response until Lt. Gen Honoree
(spl?) was sent into the area. I suspect his impact was more due to his
knowledge of the nature of hurricanes and what was required as a response.
That alone speaks to the gross incompetence of those in change at the
federal level (Recall 'you're doing a great job Brownie' only qualification
was a failed (he was fired) run at managing a racing horse association.)
As to politics being a factor: Recall before the last national election
Florida was hammered. Within less than 24 hours the state was covered up
with all sorts of Federal aid.
| > | I see a lot of property damage, but I don't see any compressed
bathtubs, either. I do know about the physics of a straw driven into a wood
pole or tree by the wind, though, and I know it does happen.
| > |
| > | No one questions the level of destruction in the Katrina-affected
area. But the fact remains that things were made worse in New Orleans
because it was built below sea level, just as things were made worse for
Pompeii because it was built on the side of Vesuvius. But build in places
like those people will, time after time.
| > |
| > | Disasters of one sort or another occur everywhere. Floods, hurricanes,
| > | wildfires, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, blizzards, acts of war,
| > | terrorist attacks, asteroid collisions, global warming/cooling (choose
| > | your faith) - the list goes on and on. Nowhere is completely safe.
Data backup is a great idea. A remote backup of critical data is an even
| > | better idea. Multiple backups in multiple remote locations may border
on overkill, but it depends on the nature of your business. It's only
| > | prudent, but thinking you can protect yourself against anything that
| > | could happen is living in a dream world.
| > |
| >
| > This is OT but the problems in NOLA were predicted and the technology to
| > prevent the deviation was available (Much of Holland is likewise below
sea level and based on a storm flood event many years ago has been hardened
to the inevitable.)
| >
| > FWIW the corps of engineers made a cost/benefit analysis that assumed
NOLA would never see a Cat 5 storm. Only problem there were previous CAT 5
storms in the past 30 to 50 years. In one levee there were engineering
reports reflecting the weakness that were ignored for up to 20 years.
|
| One other issue with New Orleans is that it is sinking. What might have
| been adequate 30 years ago may not be today because the whole area is
| lower, including the levies. The sober fact is that New Orleans should
| not be rebuilt. Why should the rest of the country pay to rebuild a
| city that is going to flood again someday? It doesn't make sense to me.
| For what this is costing we could build a new city ABOVE SEA LEVEL and
| be ahead financially. Then let the destroyed areas of New Orleans be
| what God intended, a wetland salt marsh.
Two bits of information. All of NOLA is NOT below sea level. The original
site selected in the 1700's has never flooded even in the case of Katrina.
Second only part of the city is sinking and that area was cheaply (read
poorly) built up though land fill/dredge pumping.
There are well known engineering techniques to address those issue. As a
case example the oil companies employed best engineering practices in the
foundations and levees of the refineries and other facilities. These were
not subject to sinking or flooding.
Regardless there are other areas of the world that are likewise below sea
level. Those that have taken the proper precautions to prevent flooding
have not been subject to much damage from flooding.
At one time the pumps (14 ft diameter screw pumps) that drain NOLA had the
motors that drove the pumps mounted above any possible surge/flood level.
Bean counters got involved and to save the cost of the elevated foundations
put the motors at the same level as the pumps i.e. below the NOAA identified
flood levels.
| > Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the levee failures occurred AFTER
the storm had abated to a CAT 1 or 2 level.
|
| From what I have read the levies weren't over topped by the storm but
| failed for structural reasons. Had they been sound then the flooding
| would have been minimal. One thing I read that totally blew my mind was
| the pumping stations did not have backup electrical generators in case
| there was a power failure. WTF were they thinking!?!? If this was the
| case not only was the CoE negligent but so was the City of NO. Had the
| pump houses been water proofed and operable with backup generators the
| damage would have been much less severe.
You are quite correct in the fact that there were structural failures.
These were problems that were identified and reported 20+ years ago. The
feds, through the CoE, refused to fund the needed upgrades justifying that
failure with a cost benefit analysis. (Understand you need CoE approval and
permits to do anything near much less to the levees)
If this type of failure occurred in civilian projects the engineers involved
would at the very least lose their licenses and perhaps faced jail time.
But since the design work was done under the color of employment with the
government no one is accountable.
In another instance the firm doing the work identified problems with the sub
soil but since the project was bid and funded the CoE 'declined' to approve
the additional work required to make the site secure.
| > As to the power of the storm and compressed bath tubs. Tubs are usually
| > large and white. Every house has one often more. Did you see any
complete, undamaged tubs in the rubble? Might consider that a white elephant
of a tub should be quite evident but a bent metal ball not so evident.
| The resolution of that photograph isn't good enough to see a tub,
| uncompressed or otherwise. Are you saying every tub was compressed into
| one foot diameter balls?
An aside and a small matter: If the resolution isn't good enough to see a
full size tub why did someone claim that my report was in error because the
viewer could not find a compressed tub?
It may be that I'm very familiar with the area but I can identity objects
the size of a bath tub from those photos and used that data to identify the
flow of 'stuff' from the storm surge. It was only after that lack was
mentioned that I looked for evidence of bath tubs, finding none.
All tubs that I saw on the ground in the area were compressed as were riding
lawn mowers, heavy equipment and other items that one would normally
consider unlikely candidates for 'compression' including 12 inch structural
steel I beams.
Oddly enough refrigerators are scattered far and wide. We found one, that
we could identity, 9 miles inland. And while trashed were unique in that the
majority did not suffer much damage.
Perhaps because these tend to float?
| > Perhaps I should mention that I've lived through hurricanes for over 50
| > years and this one was the first were I observed crushed metal bath
tubs. It is also the first time I have observed a total failure of our
national government to respond effectively.
|
| What about the total failure of state and local governments to respond
| and evacuate the affected areas? Then consider the responsibility of
| every citizen to be responsible for themselves and not rely solely on
| government (all levels) for your safety. Don't just lay this at the
| feet of FEMA and the Federal Government. There is plenty of blame to go
| around.
The vast majority of those that could get out did got out and quickly. Many
of those that did not, did not have the physical ability, transport or the
money for gas if they did. (Banks were closed and ATMs were drained
regardless, pay day was three days off)
Much was made of Nagin not using school busses to evacuate those without
transport. The problem with that
was that the bus drivers had evacuated.
You can hammer Nagin for a lot of things (I do as a matter of course as we
still have property there but that's another story) but no one seems to
understand that the DOME was NOT constructed to be used as a shelter and was
specifically ruled out as a place of safety in the planning. At the last
second Nagin opened the DOME as a shelter of last option. If he had not the
death toll would have been much higher.
What most don't understand if you were on the east side of NOLA and your
home on the west side it was not practical to go home, then evacuate. As a
result we had extend family scattered from Texas to the Carolinas up to I40.
| Then after his colossal screw ups they re-elect Ray Nagin as mayor of
| New Orleans! The Federal Government is not intended to be the first
| responders in disasters. that is the job of local and state disaster
| entities. Much of FEMA's problems were amplified by the TOTAL breakdown
| of the local and state emergency response systems. All you need to do
| is look at how Florida handles these situations to see just how
| unprepared local and state governments were in the effected areas of New
| Orleans, Louisiana and Mississippi.
|
| The fact is that New Orleans has become just another battleground
| between the Republicans and Democrats. Once that happens forget about
| finding out the truth of the situation. The sad thing is the only ones
| who get hurt from this disaster becoming a political pissing match are
| the people who really need help the most. BTW, what political party
| runs New Orleans and the State of Louisiana? Maybe they are quick to
| blame President Bush and FEMA so the spotlight won't be on their
| extremely poor performance before, during and after the crisis? Like I
| said, there is plenty of blame to go around.
Feds are not the first responders, a that task typically falls to the NG.
(obviously not an option as they were deployed elsewhere) but the feds are
expected to and have historically responded within 24 hours.
Lets see: Before the current LA governor (Dem) there were several governors
that were Republican. Nagin is likewise Republican. In the most recent
city election (recall Nagin was reelected) the majority of those available
to vote were well to do Republicans. (many I know personally as we went to
school together). As to the opposing candidate might consider that many
considered the alternative much less appealing.
Power structure in Jefferson Parish (just up river from NOLA) is likewise
Republican as are more than a few of the other delta parishes.
The claim by FEMA is that they could not get relief supplies into the city
due to flooding.
FEMA claims not to know about the problem for three days. As Ted Kopple
asked: Did FEMA not watch TV or read the emails from the on site staff?
Lets see: The news media were going in and out with out much problem. I
know of two companies that sent 80,000 gallons of fresh water to New Orleans
by tanker truck (think milk trucks) as soon as the information was out about
the water shortage. FEMA turned them around on the roadway along the east
bank docks/wharves (BTW this area is ABOVE sea level and did not flood) less
than 5 miles from the DOME. (Before you ask the route was the River Road on
the west bank of the Mississippi via the Huey Long Bridge in Jefferson
Parish then along the River Road to uptown New Orleans and then along the
river docks to the convention center and Super Dome. BTW the route is not
new as it was used by the pirate Jean Lafitte and by the Indians before the
white man came to the area.
Several river barge companies offered to send tanker barges (think a volume
of water the size of a foot ball field 10 foot deep and that in one barge).
Down stream trip time is less than 24 hours from Baton Rough harbor to the
NOLA convention center. There was likewise offers to haul relief supplies
the same way. Big tow boats regularly carry more than 600 box car loads in
a single tow. While I doubt that 600 box car volume would have been
practical more than an adequate volume of relief supplies should be able to
be transported by containers or even trailers strapped to the deck.
The US military had relief supplies into Alaska within < 24 hours after the
earth quake decades ago using WWII cargo aircraft, (incidentally the
supplies were sent from Bell Chase NAS, south of NOLA.
We can air drop emergency food from Germany into Afghanistan in less than 24
hours but can't get aircraft from anywhere in the centennial USA to the Gulf
Coast in less than a week?
Wall-Mart had truck loads (notice the 's') in the area in less than 36 hours
but FEMA won't let them enter NOLA.
Airboats and other small water craft DESIGNED to work in swamps and back
waters are as common as golf carts in a retirement community. Those were
available to help in the rescue work and can operate safely in a few inches
of water. Opps permission denied.
A Baptist's Men's group in USA routinely send water purification equipment
world wide in < 24 hours. FEMA refused them access to NOLA.
The US responded to the tsunami with vessels, equipment and supplies on site
within 24 hours. A hospital ship and other capital ships from the NE were
not dispatched to Katrina for a more than a week.
Out of state volunteer physicians at New Orleans airport (under federal
control at the time) were threatened with arrest because they were not
licensed to practice in Louisiana.
No transport for those stranded at the superdome but someone did find busses
to evacuate all the guest and their luggage from the big money hotels.
US Coast Guard was hampered by the lack of fuel for the choppers but there
was ample fuel to run AF-One. Regardless one of the largest refineries in
the country (EXXON Baton Rough) had ample supplies of fuel used in the turbo
engines of the CG choppers and standing offers from the barge companies to
ship to the area. Loading and transport time < 24 hours likely better.
Nothing much happened with regard to a proper response until Lt. Gen Honoree
(spl?) was sent into the area. I suspect his impact was more due to his
knowledge of the nature of hurricanes and what was required as a response.
That alone speaks to the gross incompetence of those in change at the
federal level (Recall 'you're doing a great job Brownie' only qualification
was a failed (he was fired) run at managing a racing horse association.)
As to politics being a factor: Recall before the last national election
Florida was hammered. Within less than 24 hours the state was covered up
with all sorts of Federal aid.
J
Jerry1111
Michael said:
Also don't forget a disaster recovery plan (and check if it works).
I know a company which was out of business for 2 weeks because they've
got problems with setting IT up after a fire.