Real-world ink longevity test

  • Thread starter Thread starter TJ
  • Start date Start date
Barry said:
One of the problems with "aftermarket inks" is that you can't make any
statements about them. There are so many of them, and they are so
different (from as good as (perhaps in a few cases even better than) OEM
to pure junk) that no meaningful statement applies to all of them. So
you can't really say something like "tests ... would have you believe
that aftermarket ink starts fading practically before it finishes
drying. Nothing could be further from the truth." That may be a true
statement for the particular aftermarket ink that you used, but it's
definitely not true of all aftermarket inks. And therein likes one of
the problems: You don't know what you are getting or what it's
characteristics are.
Click to expand...
Then it must be equally meaningless for a lab, even one with a
reputation like Wilhelm, to test a few aftermarket inks against a few
OEM inks and draw the conclusion that ALL aftermarket inks are inferior
to ALL OEM inks, isn't it?

It's a calculated risk. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The trick
is never to bet more than you can afford to lose. Life is full of risks.
They're part of what makes it enjoyable. A risk-free life has to be the
most boring thing I can think of.

TJ
 
Burt said:
Barry - There are some vendors who identify the manufacturer of at lease one
of the inks they sell. Two that I know of are Alotofthings
(Sensient-Formulabs ink) and Precision Color (Image Specialist ink).
Click to expand...

Burt -- who is "Precision Color?" I can't find them as an ink supplier
in Google.

????

Thanks.

Richard
 
TJ said:
Then it must be equally meaningless for a lab, even one with a
reputation like Wilhelm, to test a few aftermarket inks against a few
OEM inks and draw the conclusion that ALL aftermarket inks are
inferior to ALL OEM inks, isn't it?
Click to expand...

That is very reasonable. He got a universal sample of the garbage and
discovered that quickly.
It's a calculated risk. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Click to expand...

The winners are the biggest losers since they do not realize they are
losers to begin with.
The trick is never to bet more than you can afford to lose. Life is
full of risks. They're part of what makes it enjoyable. A risk-free
life has to be the most boring thing I can think of.
Click to expand...
One can get excitement in many other ways.
 
They do not prominently and on all pages disclose that. They sort of
imply that is what they sell until you do research anf find out that all
of the carts they sell are who knows who. I found them to be not to my
liking.
 
Richard Steinfeld said:
Burt -- who is "Precision Color?" I can't find them as an ink supplier in
Google.

????

Thanks.

Richard
Click to expand...

Richard - IS inks are being sold by a participant in the Nifty-Stuff Forum
(Measekite will have a wonderful time with this info). His name is Mikling,
and he is very knowledgeable and helpful on the Forum. He NEVER makes a
sales pitch and only has this information in his signature at the end of his
posts.

I emailed him to ask a question about IS inks presumably being sold by MIS
and Computer Friends. He told me that as a vendor you must sell IS inks
exclusively or sign an agreement with IS to not advertise that you sell IS
inks. (This certainly eliminates the possibility that you don't know what
you are getting, one of our troll's ongoing rants.)
MIS has several interesting inks for Epson printers, including B\W sets with
shades of grey instead of color inks. Of course, they come with custom
profiles. This is probably the best way to get excellent B/W prints on an
inkjet. I know that they are a customer/vendor of IS inks, so I guess that
they can't identify their products as IS because they have other sources for
some of their ink sets.

The email address for Precision Colors is http://home.eol.ca/~mikling/

If you want different quantities or have to fill in individual colors you
can email him and arrange for a different order from what is on the web
site. I haven't bought ink from him yet as I still have an adequate supply
of MIS inks. I will probably make my next order with him as he is very
helpful with people asking questions on the Forum, and his prices are very
competative.
 
measekite wrote:
I found them to be not to my liking.

------------------------------------------

Your liking??? Just what the hell does that mean? You called them? You
couldn't understand what they were saying? You couldn't read their web site?
Certainly you never ever bought any after market inks so who cares
whether or not you like "them"...whatever in the hell "them" means to you.
Are you aware of the fact that you come off as a complete and total idiot?
Did you know that?
If you haven't figured that out by not you must be completely brain dead!
Frank
 
I don't want to argue against 3rd party inks because many are fine,
however, your test is very subjective and not necessarily something to
draw a lot of conclusions from. Any print under glass will last longer,
as glass filters most of the most harmful short wave UV light spectrum.

The light level you discuss is vague at best in terms of trying to
compare it to any other.

Visual memory is not the best way to test if something has faded. A
reasonable inkset will fade about evenly with each color, so the overall
"aged" print shouldn't shift in color greatly, but that doesn't mean a
great deal of color and depth haven't been lost. To do a test, make two
copies and store one in a dark and pollution free area, and compare it
to the one that was exposed to light for 13 months, and then determine
about how much loss in density has occurred.

Accelerated light tests do not imply inks will fade rapidly. They do
rank inks based upon how the inks respond and how they would likely
respond in a longer exposure environment, as a result. Only the very
worse inks or ink and paper combos result in severe fading in weeks or
months.

Art
 
| Notre wrote:
|

| > |
| > | That is not true.
| >
| > And you know this how?
| >
| >
| hehehe...his mummy told him...lol.


Isn't she the one that spread bread crumbs on their last family outing?
 
"measekite"

| It is very obvious that you are totally misinformed. DVD, CD, and any
| other electronic media degrades over time. The dye on this media does
| degrade and every 5 to 10 years it is pudent to recopy and thing that
| has worth. Maybe you say this because nothing you have has any worth.
| I do not know. But do not post this misinformation. Do some research
| on Google and you will find these facts out.

I have a few original recordings from Edison's wax phonograph. They still
play but due to concerns for the hard cash value I have transcribed the work
product to a less expensive media.

The logevity has more to do with care and feeding than the media use to
store the data.

Some original movie film from the teens up are a bit dangerous but even
there one can still see the images.

FWIW I have some of the original Army training films. Now those will scare
you straight.
 
"measekite"
|
| But they do. They design, engineer, formulate and monitor quality of
| all ink that bears their name and they make sure it is produced to their
| specifications. They have QA people making sure of this.


Again you know this how? Have you EVER worked in a manufacturing
environment?

Many manufacturing decisions are made based on a little as 1/2 cent in out
the door cost. (Want to take any bets on which of the decisions win? )
 
NotMe said:
"measekite"

| It is very obvious that you are totally misinformed. DVD, CD, and any
| other electronic media degrades over time. The dye on this media does
| degrade and every 5 to 10 years it is pudent to recopy and thing that
| has worth. Maybe you say this because nothing you have has any worth.
| I do not know. But do not post this misinformation. Do some research
| on Google and you will find these facts out.

I have a few original recordings from Edison's wax phonograph. They still
play but due to concerns for the hard cash value I have transcribed the work
product to a less expensive media.

The logevity has more to do with care and feeding than the media use to
store the data.

Some original movie film from the teens up are a bit dangerous but even
there one can still see the images.

FWIW I have some of the original Army training films. Now those will scare
you straight.
Click to expand...

I have our resident troll (and his alter egos) $hit canned in my kill
file. What he doesn't know is that I continually backup data to the
latest medium and continually keep backing it up to current technology.
I have multiple backups on all kinds of media from tape to hard
drives. I really don't care about what I have on tape now because
EVERYTHING that I have on tape is now on CD, DVD and hard drive backups.
EVERYTHING I currently have on hard drives will be transfered to the
next great medium that comes along. If our resident troll doesn't
transfer his data to newer media as it comes to market then it is he who
is misinformed and doesn't really know the facts. But then he has shown
this to be the case time and time again.
 
Bullshit.

CD and DVD dyes may not last "forever", but they will last many decades.
Lots of attempts to estimate the lives of some of them come up with
numbers in the 150 year range. None of them, properly burned on good,
working equipment, has a life anywhere near as short as only a decade or
two. And that is for the least stable of the dye types. Just don't
expect "-R" (rewriteable) media to have decades of stability. And do
understand that some drives are defective (low power laser) and don't
burn with enough power to properly heat the media to the proper
temperature, but that is not the fault of the dye.
 
"Michael Johnson"

| I have our resident troll (and his alter egos) $hit canned in my kill
| file. What he doesn't know is that I continually backup data to the
| latest medium and continually keep backing it up to current technology.
| I have multiple backups on all kinds of media from tape to hard
| drives. I really don't care about what I have on tape now because
| EVERYTHING that I have on tape is now on CD, DVD and hard drive backups.
| EVERYTHING I currently have on hard drives will be transfered to the
| next great medium that comes along. If our resident troll doesn't
| transfer his data to newer media as it comes to market then it is he who
| is misinformed and doesn't really know the facts. But then he has shown
| this to be the case time and time again.

All the back ups in the world won't help in all cases (think Katrina). We
have a policy of backing up each studio at all the other locations. Paid
off as we have yet to find as much as the foundation of the studio outside
of New Orleans.
 
Broad comments such as yours below should come with the necessary
warnings that they lack accuracy because they simply do not properly
consider the full field.

Studies of the dyes used in -R CDs, as well as the metal coating and
lacquer coating technologies, have shown massively variable results. In
some tests, especially during the periods when manufacturers were having
difficulties maintaining enough product, just prior to recordable DVD
technology becoming commonplace, some CD-R media began failures in as
little as 6 months from use. Many of these were made in countries with
poor quality controls in their factories, and many of those products are
no longer being produced, but many can have them in their collections.

Although I have not researched this issue recently, when I last checked,
very few CD-R media had expected 150 year ranges. As of a few years
back only specific dyes and use of sputtered gold came even close to 100
plus years expectations.

At the time I did research, archivists and professional services,
including the Library of Congress, were suggesting 10-20 year cycling
for critical materials and 35-40 years for highly redundant data.

Simply put, -R recordable technologies rely on organic dyes which are
vulnerable to light damage, and with CDs, physical damage, since they
are poorly protected only on one side by polycarbonate. Detachment of
the metal layer, oxidation of the aluminum surface due to mishandling or
the lacquer coating having been poorly applied with either air bubbles
or moisture had been fairly common.

The technologies used in -RW materials is quite different, and face
other antagonists, but may ultimately be more stable than -R. DVD
writable technologies differ in that the data surfaces are sandwiched
between two layers of polycarbonate plastic. They may prove more or less
stable as a result, but are better protected against physical damage.

However, just to reiterate, 150 years is an overstatement, and yes, some
CD -R materials have degraded in months and years. They may be the
exception, but implying that CD materials are regularly safe from data
lose for over a century is probably as equal an exaggeration as to state
that all CD -R materials will fail in 5 years.

For those who are concerned about their data on CD media, I would
suggest reviewing your CD-Rs every year or two for possible loss of
data, use sputtered gold coated CD-Rs for best longevity, and recognize
that a bigger problem may be the burners and drive technologies design
changes making media difficult to read, which may also suggest that
reburning every few years may somewhat protect you from those changes if
you upgrade your burners. Loss of media reading devices is probably
even a bigger risk than the media failure, but both need to be considered.

Art
 
NotMe said:
"Michael Johnson"

| I have our resident troll (and his alter egos) $hit canned in my kill
| file. What he doesn't know is that I continually backup data to the
| latest medium and continually keep backing it up to current technology.
| I have multiple backups on all kinds of media from tape to hard
| drives. I really don't care about what I have on tape now because
| EVERYTHING that I have on tape is now on CD, DVD and hard drive backups.
| EVERYTHING I currently have on hard drives will be transfered to the
| next great medium that comes along. If our resident troll doesn't
| transfer his data to newer media as it comes to market then it is he who
| is misinformed and doesn't really know the facts. But then he has shown
| this to be the case time and time again.

All the back ups in the world won't help in all cases (think Katrina). We
have a policy of backing up each studio at all the other locations. Paid
off as we have yet to find as much as the foundation of the studio outside
of New Orleans.
Click to expand...

When I had a consulting business up and running I kept backups off-site
as well as on-site. It was easy to do with removable hard drives.
There are solutions even to events like Katrina where all you need to do
is have water tight containers. There are also fire resistant
containers. Additionally, there are on-line storage solutions that are
worth consideration. The key is to backup and do it regularly and store
the data in a secure place. It is also wise to move your data to a
medium that uses current technology and do this as required. The stuff
I have on tape is really something I can throw away but the pack rat in
me won't allow it.
 
Barry said:
Bullshit.
Click to expand...

Wheres da Beef
CD and DVD dyes may not last "forever", but they will last many
decades. Lots of attempts to estimate the lives of some of them come
up with numbers in the 150 year range. None of them, properly burned
on good, working equipment, has a life anywhere near as short as only
a decade or two. And that is for the least stable of the dye types.
Just don't expect "-R" (rewriteable) media to have decades of
stability. And do understand that some drives are defective (low
power laser) and don't burn with enough power to properly heat the
media to the proper temperature, but that is not the fault of the dye.
Click to expand...
 
Re: "some CD-R media began failures in as little as 6 months from use.
Many of these were made in countries with poor quality controls in their
factories"

Hey, I don't think anyone disagrees that there is junk media out there
and that it may not last. I don't think that you are saying anything
here that even supports your own case.

But quality media by quality manufacturers (Verbatim, Imation, and
several reputable asian manufacturers) will last a LONG time if properly
burned on properly working burners. Without saying how long a "long
time" is (by SOME estimates 150 to 300 years), I am confident that it at
least a few decades.

[And yes, some of the studies by the manufacturers do suggest that the
media will be stable for centuries, IF PROPERLY STORED AND HANDLED, but
they won't make any warranties to that effect at this time. However,
this is a matter that I have studied in some depth.]

And I have seen no studies, ever, that indicated that RW media was in
ANY way more stable than one-time media (please don't say "-R" media,
because that gets back to the +R vs. -R issue as well). But I have seen
hundreds of cases of people losing data on RW media that just
"disappeared" as the media (apparently) returned, on it's own, to a
blank state over time (months to a few years). It may well have been
"underburned" by a cheap burner with a too-low-power laser, but that
doesn't help the media owner get their data back.
 
Re: "There are solutions even to events like Katrina where all you need
to do is have water tight containers."

They have those watertight containers at Sam's Club. They say
"Hellman's" or "Miracle Whip" on the label. Just take out the original
contents, wash, and put your backup hard drive (wrapped in bubble wrap)
inside.

:-)
 
Barry said:
Re: "There are solutions even to events like Katrina where all you need
to do is have water tight containers."

They have those watertight containers at Sam's Club. They say
"Hellman's" or "Miracle Whip" on the label. Just take out the original
contents, wash, and put your backup hard drive (wrapped in bubble wrap)
inside.
Click to expand...

Low tech solutions like you pointed out are overlooked too often, IMO.
I was thinking that a zip lock freezer bag would do the same. I would
be more worried about fire than flooding. Data on a water logged hard
drive can be retrieved much easier than one burnt to a crisp.

Back when pen plotters were the rage I remember we would store the
carousel in a Folger's coffee can with a wet piece of sponge to keep the
pens from drying out between plots.
 
Barry said:
Re: "some CD-R media began failures in as little as 6 months from use.
Many of these were made in countries with poor quality controls in
their factories"

Hey, I don't think anyone disagrees that there is junk media out there
and that it may not last. I don't think that you are saying anything
here that even supports your own case.

But quality media by quality manufacturers
Click to expand...

Now some of these quality mfg make varying quality media. They used
different dyes that are of different qualty. So you need to read CD-Media
(Verbatim, Imation, and several reputable asian manufacturers) will
last a LONG time if properly burned on properly working burners.
Without saying how long a "long time" is (by SOME estimates 150 to 300
years), I am confident that it at least a few decades.

[And yes, some of the studies by the manufacturers do suggest that the
media will be stable for centuries, IF PROPERLY STORED AND HANDLED,
but they won't make any warranties to that effect at this time.
However, this is a matter that I have studied in some depth.]

And I have seen no studies, ever, that indicated that RW media was in
ANY way more stable than one-time media (please don't say "-R" media,
because that gets back to the +R vs. -R issue as well). But I have
seen hundreds of cases of people losing data on RW media that just
"disappeared" as the media (apparently) returned, on it's own, to a
blank state over time (months to a few years). It may well have been
"underburned" by a cheap burner with a too-low-power laser, but that
doesn't help the media owner get their data back.
Click to expand...
 
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