[PL] 2004 Discussion: SYSTEM UTILITIES

  • Thread starter Thread starter Susan Bugher
  • Start date Start date
Jason, I remember you were suffering a mysterious pattern of explorer
crashes, earlier this year. Did you resolve it, or does the riddle
continue?
Click to expand...

The Explorer errors have mostly gone away now that I've reduced the size of
Program Files. But I'm also relying a lot more on a file manager. The
true test would be to go back to using Explorer exclusively.
 
<Snipped>

Thanks for the detailed explanation re: vcache. Now that I know what it's
about, I don't think it'll work for me. I'm in a low-RAM situation and my
problem was Explorer crashes, not slowdowns. It also explains why Cacheman
didn't work for me. I tried it for only a short period of time though, so
can't give any details. As for the swap file, I don't have any weird
entries there, so I guess I'm okay on that front. :)
 
Sorry about butting in on this thread, but I was suffering from a major
problem with Explorer recently that I've now tracked down and fixed.

Basically, I was using a piece of freeware that allowed me to change the
modification date on files. Very simple. But Explorer (not IE, but the file
explorer - who knows these days if they are not the same thing?) would
randomly crash. It was driving me nuts, but after uninstalling this freeware
the problem seems to have gone. I will not say which program it was because
it may not have been that (it could have been my ATI drivers).

But if you are suffering from random Explorer crashes, try and uninstall any
programs that are shell extensions and see if that fixes the problem.

Thanks,
Mick
 
But if you are suffering from random Explorer crashes, try and
uninstall any programs that are shell extensions and see if that fixes
the problem.
Click to expand...

Thanks Michael. I rely on several shell extensions, so that's something to
keep in mind.

When I had Win95 (I have Win98 now), I'd get random Explorer crashes when
my Start menu was too full! I found that out through trial and error.
There seem to be a lot of undocumented problems in Windows. :(

But the crashes I experience now aren't random. They occur right after
deleting files in Explorer. And omega's slowdowns occur right after
deleting files. Very weird.
 
jason said:
Could you describe what you did? I *mostly* solved a similar problem by
reducing the number of files and folders under Program Files. I'm thinking
Program Files is one of those "system" folders that have limits but that
you never hear about...My Documents being the main one you hear about.
Click to expand...

I keep that "my documents" thing off within a general tmp directory, only
ever has max ~30 files, so that was never the cause of the problem for me.
Although yes, have heard about its limits being the area of cause and
solution, for a number of cases. Program Files, I don't happen to remember
anything about that. But there again, it would not have been possible in
my case for it to be a cause, as I keep fairly little in that system path.
Anyway, I'd be curious what changes you made to the VCACHE settings.
Click to expand...

I just roughed it in, kind of always have with VCACHE. I have 192mb RAM,
but didn't consult one of those "recommended formulas." Instead, I turned
up my max, in increments, until the performance problem seemed to be gone.
Settings I have currently:

[vcache]
MinFileCache=8192
MaxFileCache=65536
ChunkSize=512

Btw, something I haven't go around to checking is how smart Cacheman is
about writing the values (?)

It worked out to do it myself, since I did the adjusting during a period
when I was doing enough intensive file move & deletion activity to watch
for slowdown, and bump up values accordingly.
Click to expand...

I'm curious about each of your Win/IE versions. In discussions between
MVPs on this subject, their claim was:
------------------
However, this large file delete hang issue only has something to do when IE6
is installed to W98. I've never seen it happen in any other circumstance, yet.

"PA Bear" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:OxVEKxWyBHA.2380@tkmsftngp04...
Click to expand...
This came with your upgrade to IE6, believe it or not. No fixes.
If it truly bugs you, revert to your previous IE version. Search this
NG and its archives for "freeze/freezing" and/or "hang/hanging" and read
earlier posts/complaints.
Click to expand...
-------------------------

In my case, Win98SE with IE6 SP1. I just installed my old HD as a
removable drive. I deleted everything in three fairly equal groups.
Utilities, Program Files and Windows directories. Each was 100's of
megs and each deleted, without using the recycle bin, in literally
seconds.

I have no data under vcache, sytem.ini.

BoB
For the duration of Swen, my address is inoperative.
 
BoB said:
[vcache]
MaxFileCache=65536

It worked out to do it myself, since I did the adjusting during a period
when I was doing enough intensive file move & deletion activity to watch
for slowdown, and bump up values accordingly.
Click to expand...

I'm curious about each of your Win/IE versions. In discussions between
MVPs on this subject, their claim was:
Click to expand...
: However, this large file delete hang issue only has something to do when IE6
: is installed to W98. I've never seen it happen in any other circumstance, yet.

:Rick
Click to expand...
: This came with your upgrade to IE6, believe it or not. No fixes.
: If it truly bugs you, revert to your previous IE version. Search this
: NG and its archives for "freeze/freezing" and/or "hang/hanging" and read
: earlier posts/complaints.
Click to expand...

Greetings, BoB. I run W98SE + MSIE 5.5.

Thus either the MVPs were on the wrong track, or my case was merely
not helpful to analyzing the cause of the pattern they were seeing,
had an independent cause (my low max setting for vcaching).

Since you have this solid sample of people coming forth and saying,
"The only change I made to my system was upgrade to MSIE 6, and then
the problem started," that's something which it's hard to get around,
when diagnosing. Nevertheless, it makes no intuitive sense at all for
me that MSIE 6 upgrade could be the cause. Files it specifically updates
are known and readable...

Approaching that it's something to do with w98's disk caching system has
greater appeal, at least on the instinctive level. (Even if apparently
failing towards reconciling users' reports). I note too that with
the vcache.vxd, there is some precedent with mskb talking about issues
with it, and having to provide a replacement driver.

One of those, Q220473, "Windows Runs Slowly Performing Large Backup
Operation," it's pretty specific: large number (2-3k+) files being compared
during a tape drive backup. The other, Q238548 (now gone), "Windows 98
Performance Degradation After Intensive File Activity," it was for w98
FE only. Nevertheless I still consider it significant that weakness of
the caching manager has been documented in the past to cause symptoms of
this type.
In my case, Win98SE with IE6 SP1. I just installed my old HD as a
removable drive. I deleted everything in three fairly equal groups.
Utilities, Program Files and Windows directories. Each was 100's of
megs and each deleted, without using the recycle bin, in literally
seconds.
Click to expand...

Have the MVPs found any way to reconcile their "only on MSIE 6" pattern,
against the fact that it's not a problem on all such systems?
I have no data under vcache, sytem.ini.
Click to expand...

I wonder if they should make a point of interrogating those who do see the
problem, whether they have a MaxFileCache entry in their system.ini's? Had
I no such entry to start, I suspect I'd not have experienced the problem.

(Of course, I won't be hopeful that it could be simple. This is a pretty hard
area to really get identified - and mskb hasn't acknowledged it, for w98SE.
Stubbornly remains a mystery. We might even all be on a different OS sooner
than it could ever get solved.)
 
I was experiencing a pattern of explorer crashes for a while, occurring on
shutdown at close of last open explorer window. The cause was one of my
shell extensiosn, which loaded early in startup, had a shfolder.dll in its
own folder.
Thanks Michael. I rely on several shell extensions, so that's something to
keep in mind.
Click to expand...

I'm curious now, about an experiment I might conduct. Getting a loaded
modules list (from msconfig or Faber Toys or some similar) as shown when
no explorer windows have been opened, and only a third-party file manager.
Then comparing it against the list when using the windows explorer interface.
I thought that all the same modules would be loaded in either case, but am
interested in checking.
When I had Win95 (I have Win98 now), I'd get random Explorer crashes when
my Start menu was too full! I found that out through trial and error.
Click to expand...

If you ever run Regmon (sysinternals.com), it's informative to take a look
at where Windows gets all frenzied in reading things out. For the startmenu,
Windows shuffles wildly through ever last little entry in the list, reading
sorting data, doing rollcalls, etc.
There seem to be a lot of undocumented problems in Windows. :(

But the crashes I experience now aren't random. They occur right after
deleting files in Explorer. And omega's slowdowns occur right after
deleting files. Very weird.
Click to expand...

Yeah, weird. And my tools to diagnose things, it's limited to just what
files are being accessed, and what registry reads are involved. Something
that involves lower level, file system, as in this situation of deleting
being a problem, it gets pretty obscure...
 
Starting rough. Grouping the entries on the System Utilities page by
type. Gives the following as the registy tools group....


-----------------------------------REGISTRY-----------------------------------

REGISTRY: EDITOR
RegEditX
Registrar Lite
RegMagik

REGISTRY: STARTUP CONTROL
Start-Up Monitor
Startup Control Panel

REGISTRY: CLEANER
OleClean
RegCleaner
Add/Remove Pro

REGISTRY: CLEANER SUITE *
EasyCleaner
jv16 Powertools
RegSeeker

REGISTRY: BACKUP
erunt, Emergency Recovery Utility

REGISTRY: MONITOR
RegMon
RegShot

REGISTRY: INSTALL/UNINSTALL
Total Uninstall



See also: REGISTRY TWEAKERS
http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/PL2004PROGRAMMING.htm#SystemTweaker

-----------------------------------REGISTRY-----------------------------------




* REGISTRY: CLEANER SUITE

EasyCleaner
jv16 Powertools
RegSeeker

Each of these foremost, answers the question, "What should I use to clean my
registry?" It is also to be noted ath the members of this group include
additional features, such as GUI access to some special registry keys -- as
well as functions to work with files, eg duplicates searches. If the added
features of these programs, beyond registry cleaning functions, is not well
represented by the term "registry cleaner suite," then perhaps "system suite"
would be better. In any case I still see them as foremost as part of the
registry group.
 
omega said:
Starting rough. Grouping the entries on the System Utilities page by
type. Gives the following as the registy tools group....

-----------------------------------REGISTRY-----------------------------------
Click to expand...
[snip]

Here's some misc stuff, roughly clumped together by functions. (Not clear
best next step on the guys below)


MSIE FILES CLEANUP

Empty Temp Folders (3 Cleaner)
Spider (3 Cleaner)
IEradicator (3 Cleaner)


SYSTEM FILES: BACKUP

DLL Archive (5 Backup DLLs)
WinDriversBackup Personal Edition (5 Backup Drivers)


FILE UTILITIES: BACKUP

PolderBackup (5 Backup Files)
XXCopy (5 Backup Files)
BASK (5 Backup Files)
Cobian Backup (5 Backup Files)
Karen's Replicator (5 Backup Files)
My Own Backup (MOB) (5 Backup Files)


CD & FLOPPY:

Burn to the Brim (5 CD Tool)
Burnatonce (5 CD Tool)
DAEMON Tools (5 CD Tool)
SuperFormat (5 Format Diskettes)


PARTITION UTILIITIES

Savepart (5 Partition Tool)
Ranish Partition Manager (5 Boot Manager; Partitioner)
XOSL (5 Boot Manager)


OS

Debian (6 Operating System)
FreeBSD (6 Operating System)
Cygwin (6 Os: Unix For Windows)
 
omega said:
omega said:
Starting rough. Grouping the entries on the System Utilities page by
type. Gives the following as the registy tools group....

-----------------------------------REGISTRY-----------------------------------
Click to expand...
[snip]

Here's some misc stuff, roughly clumped together by functions. (Not clear
best next step on the guys below)
Click to expand...
[snip]


Here's the last of the members of the System Utilities page.


HARDWARE TOOLS

Rain, Cpu Cooler
Memtest86, RAM Tester
MotherBoard Monitor


SYSTEM MONITORS: processes, resources, ram

Another Task Manager (ATM) (2 Process Monitor)
PRCView (2 Process Monitor)
Process Explorer (2 Process Monitor)
Quick Resource (2 Process Monitor: Resources)
MemLoad (2 Process Monitor: RAM)
RAMpage (2 Process Monitor: RAM)

???
Filemon (2 Process Monitor) [*1]

SYSTEM TWEAKER: MEMORY [*2]
Cacheman (4 RAM Manager)


.. . . .

[*1] Filemon is not fitted well into the group of process monitors. It's used
in an entirely different way. A process monitor you launch to see all the
running processes on your system, get info about them, and then optionally
manage them, usually by selecting from the list, which to termintate. Totally
independent use with Filemon. The use basically is to watch what files a
particular program is accessing, or trying to access. On my personal drive,
I keep it next to the registry monitors, because purpose is often the same:
tracking what an executable wants. Doesn't solve the problem of where to put
it here. Btw, elsewhere it might be called a "progammer's tool."

[*2] Not sure where to fit in Cacheman...
 
omega said:
Here's the last of the members of the System Utilities page.
Click to expand...
[snip]

One Orphan...

<quote>
WinPatrol (2 Process Monitor)
WinPatrol with Scotty the Windows Watch Dog will sniff out Worms, Adware,
Spyware, Cookies, Trojan horses and other virus type, malicious, nasty
programs that may attack your computer. WinPatrol puts you back in control of
your computer with no need for constant updates. WinPatrol's goal is to help
you better understand what programs are running on your computer, and alert
you to any new programs added without your permission. Scotty lets you
confirm any new programs set up to run on your computer
</quote>


I haven't used this program, but wouldn't it belong with anti-spyware\
anti-malware progs, as found within a different cat than this one. ?
 
omega said:
REGISTRY: EDITOR
RegEditX
Registrar Lite
RegMagik
Agreed

REGISTRY: STARTUP CONTROL
Start-Up Monitor
Startup Control Panel
Click to expand...
I'd make startup utilities a separate category.
REGISTRY: CLEANER
OleClean
RegCleaner
Add/Remove Pro
Click to expand...
I'd move Add/Remove Pro to the install/uninstall utilities. I know it
deals only with the registry, but people use it in connection with
uninstalling programs.
REGISTRY: CLEANER SUITE *
EasyCleaner
jv16 Powertools
RegSeeker
Agreed

REGISTRY: BACKUP
erunt, Emergency Recovery Utility
Agreed

REGISTRY: MONITOR
RegMon
RegShot
Agreed

REGISTRY: INSTALL/UNINSTALL
Total Uninstall
Click to expand...
I'd recommend a separate category for install/uninstall utilities.
See also: REGISTRY TWEAKERS
http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/PL2004PROGRAMMING.htm#SystemTweaker
Click to expand...
My first instinct is to put system tweakers in the System Utilities
section.
 
omega said:
Here's the last of the members of the System Utilities page.


HARDWARE TOOLS

Rain, Cpu Cooler
Memtest86, RAM Tester
MotherBoard Monitor
Click to expand...
Interesting category...I'm leaning toward it. :)
SYSTEM MONITORS: processes, resources, ram

Another Task Manager (ATM) (2 Process Monitor)
PRCView (2 Process Monitor)
Process Explorer (2 Process Monitor)
Quick Resource (2 Process Monitor: Resources)
MemLoad (2 Process Monitor: RAM)
RAMpage (2 Process Monitor: RAM)

???
Filemon (2 Process Monitor) [*1]
Click to expand...

System Monitors is too broad IMO. People frequently want (and
specifically ask for) process monitors and memory monitors, so I'd
separate those two out as separate categories. Resource monitoring is a
niche thing, but I don't know where else to put it except in it's own
category.

Can't help you on Filemon or Cacheman. :)
SYSTEM TWEAKER: MEMORY [*2]
Cacheman (4 RAM Manager)
Click to expand...


See, this is why categories are tough! Hard to get agreement on
anything. Three people have taken a crack...you, Susan and myself...and
we all have different opinions!
 
Thank you! FYI - I tried to group apps that monitor running processes,
backup apps etc. -

IOW I grouped by the type of operation they perform - I think you are
grouping by what part of the system they effect . . .

you might want to skim through the program descriptions - I think some
apps capabilities *overlap* with adjacent apps in the groupings I have
now . . .

Have just glanced at your posts - will start trying to digest them now.

Worksheet - a list of the system apps as they are shown now:


Cpu Cooler Rain
RAM Tester Memtest86
Motherboard Monitor MotherBoard Monitor (MBM)
Process Monitor Another Task Manager (ATM)
Process Monitor Filemon
Process Monitor PRCView
Process Monitor Process Explorer
Process Monitor WinPatrol
Process Monitor: RAM MemLoad
Process Monitor: RAM RAMpage
Process Monitor: Registry RegMon
Process Monitor: Resources Quick Resource
Process Monitor: Start-Up Start-Up Monitor
Cleaner EasyCleaner
Cleaner Empty Temp Folders
Cleaner IEradicator
Cleaner jv16 Powertools
Cleaner OleClean
Cleaner RegCleaner
Cleaner Spider
Registry Editor RegEditX
Registry Editor Registrar Lite
Registry Editor RegMagik
Registry Editor RegSeeker
Install-Uninstall Tool Add/Remove Pro
Install-Uninstall Tool RegShot
Install-Uninstall Tool Total Uninstall
RAM Manager Cacheman
Start-Up Tool Startup Control Panel
Backup Emergency Recovery Utility NT (ERUNT)
Backup DLLs DLL Archive
Backup Drivers WinDriversBackup Personal Edition
Backup Files BASK
Backup Files Cobian Backup
Backup Files Karen's Replicator
Backup Files My Own Backup (MOB)
Backup Files PolderBackup
Backup Files XXCopy
Boot Manager XOSL
Boot Manager; Partitioner Ranish Partition Manager
CD Tool Burn to the Brim
CD Tool Burnatonce
CD Tool DAEMON Tools
Format Diskettes SuperFormat
Partition Tool Savepart
Operating System Debian
Operating System FreeBSD
Os: Unix For Windows Cygwin


Susan
--
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org
PL2003: http://www.pricelessware.org/2003/about2003PL.htm
PL2004 Review: http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/2004nominationsPL.php
alt.comp.freeware FAQ (short) - maintained by John F.
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html
 
omega said:
<quote>
WinPatrol (2 Process Monitor)
WinPatrol with Scotty the Windows Watch Dog will sniff out Worms,
Adware, Spyware, Cookies, Trojan horses and other virus type,
malicious, nasty programs that may attack your computer. WinPatrol
puts you back in control of your computer with no need for constant
updates. WinPatrol's goal is to help you better understand what
programs are running on your computer, and alert you to any new
programs added without your permission. Scotty lets you confirm any
new programs set up to run on your computer </quote>


I haven't used this program, but wouldn't it belong with anti-spyware\
anti-malware progs, as found within a different cat than this one. ?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I haven't used it either, but it sounds like it belongs under
SECURITY...under anti-spyware/anti-malware.
 
Susan said:
Worksheet - a list of the system apps as they are shown now:
Click to expand...

That looked pretty ugly - try two:

Rain (Cpu Cooler)
Memtest86 (RAM Tester)
MotherBoard Monitor (MBM) (Motherboard Monitor)
Another Task Manager (ATM) (Process Monitor)
Filemon (Process Monitor)
PRCView (Process Monitor)
Process Explorer (Process Monitor)
WinPatrol (Process Monitor)
MemLoad (Process Monitor: RAM)
RAMpage (Process Monitor: RAM)
RegMon (Process Monitor: Registry)
Quick Resource (Process Monitor: Resources)
Start-Up Monitor (Process Monitor: Start-Up)
EasyCleaner (Cleaner)
Empty Temp Folders (Cleaner)
IEradicator (Cleaner)
jv16 Powertools (Cleaner)
OleClean (Cleaner)
RegCleaner (Cleaner)
Spider (Cleaner)
RegEditX (Registry Editor)
Registrar Lite (Registry Editor)
RegMagik (Registry Editor)
RegSeeker (Registry Editor)
Add/Remove Pro (Install-Uninstall Tool)
RegShot (Install-Uninstall Tool)
Total Uninstall (Install-Uninstall Tool)
Cacheman (RAM Manager)
Startup Control Panel (Start-Up Tool)
Emergency Recovery Utility NT (ERUNT) (Backup)
DLL Archive (Backup DLLs)
WinDriversBackup Personal Edition (Backup Drivers)
BASK (Backup Files)
Cobian Backup (Backup Files)
Karen's Replicator (Backup Files)
My Own Backup (MOB) (Backup Files)
PolderBackup (Backup Files)
XXCopy (Backup Files)
XOSL (Boot Manager)
Ranish Partition Manager (Boot Manager; Partitioner)
Burn to the Brim (CD Tool)
Burnatonce (CD Tool)
DAEMON Tools (CD Tool)
SuperFormat (Format Diskettes)
Savepart (Partition Tool)
Debian (Operating System)
FreeBSD (Operating System)
Cygwin (Os: Unix For Windows)



Susan
--
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org
PL2003: http://www.pricelessware.org/2003/about2003PL.htm
PL2004 Review: http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/2004nominationsPL.php
alt.comp.freeware FAQ (short) - maintained by John F.
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html
 
jason said:
System Monitors is too broad IMO.
Click to expand...

IMO, they just need to be all clumped adjacent to each other. Not saying
they're all members of an identical category, at all. How's it look with
spacing?
People frequently want (and specifically ask for) process monitors and
memory monitors, so I'd separate those two out as separate categories.
Resource monitoring is a niche thing, but I don't know where else to put
it except in it's own category.
Click to expand...

I'd say that ram monitoring can coincide very close to resource montioring.
Where, process monitors are often requested only for the purpose of process
killing. Yet they are used for other functions, too, of course. Such as
seeing what a program is doing, a time when you might also use a ram monitor
specifically to measure its appetites.

I really want the three things clumped together. You'll notice on the misc
page, following this one, billions of small categories go sprawling out.
So any consolidation is attractive to me...
 
omega wrote"
Here's some misc stuff, roughly clumped together by functions. (Not
clear best next step on the guys below)
Click to expand...

I'm just looking for the logic...not for how they fit in the overall
scheme....and they all look good...but I had a question about the File
Utilities-Backup...
MSIE FILES CLEANUP

Empty Temp Folders (3 Cleaner)
Spider (3 Cleaner)
IEradicator (3 Cleaner)
Click to expand...
Sounds good.
SYSTEM FILES: BACKUP

DLL Archive (5 Backup DLLs)
WinDriversBackup Personal Edition (5 Backup Drivers)
Click to expand...
Sounds good.
FILE UTILITIES: BACKUP

PolderBackup (5 Backup Files)
XXCopy (5 Backup Files)
BASK (5 Backup Files)
Cobian Backup (5 Backup Files)
Karen's Replicator (5 Backup Files)
My Own Backup (MOB) (5 Backup Files)
Click to expand...
Are you saying this should be under SYSTEM UTILITIES, but called File
Utilities-Backup? Wouldn't it belong under FILE UTILITIES???
CD & FLOPPY:

Burn to the Brim (5 CD Tool)
Burnatonce (5 CD Tool)
DAEMON Tools (5 CD Tool)
SuperFormat (5 Format Diskettes)
Click to expand...
Sounds good.
PARTITION UTILIITIES

Savepart (5 Partition Tool)
Ranish Partition Manager (5 Boot Manager; Partitioner)
XOSL (5 Boot Manager)
Click to expand...
Sounds good.
OS

Debian (6 Operating System)
FreeBSD (6 Operating System)
Cygwin (6 Os: Unix For Windows)
Click to expand...
Sounds good.
 
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