[OT] What are the thoughts of the community?

[Cor]

Hi Herfried,

LOL. Armin and I are always friendly, there are other people like
Fergus Cooney who insult other people in the public groups.

What is the meaning of this?

Cor

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

Well I didn't want to get involved but this is representative of one major
problem with public newsgroups. Herfried... you're commandering the thread.
It had a subject and you plainly want it to be about some squabble you have
with Fergus Cooney (whoever he might be.) People who can't read English are
"disabled from learning" if we simply carry your point to the extreme.

I am not good in English too, nevertheless I try to give my best. There
are language-specific groups available too.

It is more of a hospital than you are willing to concede. It is a therapy
session to many (I'll guess "most") who participate...

ACK. But some of them will never get cured.

According to the contract we signed or you decided that anybody who inhabits
the Earth just has to believe this? Take an introspective moment... ask
yourself why you personally think you have this all "right" and others have
it all "wrong."

You know what "usenet" means?

But let's pursue that train of thought... "all people come first" okay... so
that means uhh? You call them on the phone? You spend 14 hours trying to
formulate a meaningful reply? You... uh... how does our behavior change
since "everybody" comes first? We have a scientific term for this it is
called "impossible."

I try to do that. And sometimes sticking to a netikette can help a lot.

Ah... a snappy rhetort. Insulting = "bad" clever response = "good" now
at least we know the rules.


Well I'll refrain from comment on this.

That's Fergus Cooney. He doesn't have any friends.

Herfried... in all seriousness I'll bet you know a heck of alot about .Net
and your heart is in the right place but you really do come off as something
of a dork. Every newsgroup has a "Herfried Wagner" and you're this
newsgroup's "Herfried Wagner."

If you have been assigned here by Microsoft I'd like to know that. If
you've decided on your own by virtue of posting the first message or the
most replies that you are in charge I wouldn't mind knowing that either.

I help whenever I have time to do that. I have a lot of time. And I
enjoy working in the groups by _helping all_ people in the groups.
There are other people like Armin, Cor, Jay, and Tom wo enjoy helping
too.

And there are people who enjoy insulting other people.

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

What is the meaning of this?

Didn't you read the posts in which Fergus calls me "Popmous Little
Shit"? I never insulted him, I only tried to make him aware of
something he could improve so everybody can benefit from his posts.
He _fighted_ back. I don't understand that. He _doesn't want_ to be
helpful.

 

[Cor]

Herfried,

Maybe I did read it wrong (I am not so glad with the conclussion from
Slocombe because that does in my eyes not cover the replies but gives his
own opinion) but beside that you know I don't like this.

Again, please stop with it, Fergus did try that more times than you.

And like you has Fergus a lot of friends in this newsgroup minimum one.

Cor

 

[Cor]

Hi Herfried,

It was about this, this did include me too.
But EOT

I saw I misunderstood it.

Cor

 

[Slonocode]

I hope you use the wrong word, rebellious means that they are in command of
this newsgroup.

I hope that you not have that idea?

Cor

Hello Cor,

I understand that they are not in command of this group. But I also see
that it would be easy to believe that to be the case, especially for
newcomers.

As a relative newcomer myself I am only trying to convey what my initial
impressions were. I did for a short time believe that they were the leaders
of this group.

My hope in starting this thread was that the opposing parties might see
input from more members of the community about how they are perceived. And
that this would ultimately lead to some compromises.

--Slonocode

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

It was about this, this did include me too.

Sorry, I forgot to mention your name. You are _very friendly_ too.

But EOT

EOT

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

I understand that they are not in command of this group. But I also see
that it would be easy to believe that to be the case, especially for
newcomers.

As a relative newcomer myself I am only trying to convey what my initial
impressions were. I did for a short time believe that they were the leaders
of this group.

My hope in starting this thread was that the opposing parties might see
input from more members of the community about how they are perceived. And
that this would ultimately lead to some compromises.

Although this thread is OT I think it's very important that you have
started it.

When reading all the replies some people mentioned that they _have_
problems accessing certain messages and wold like people to post
messages which stick to the netikette.

I hope the guys who now create non-standard posts will read that and
will improve their posting style so everybody here will benefit.

 

[Cor]

Hi Sonocode,

I am glad with this message, because I thought you did make a total covering
conclussion, which it was not in my eyes (And I cannot make it either).

I did try to stop this several times, it is endless and will not lead to
results.

Like in normal live it are two kind of people "the alphas" and the "betas"
and they will never agree to each other. (I am an alpha)

Strange is, that VB.net is more a language for the "alphas" but the "betas"
are the ones who defend it the most.

A pity is that especialy Herfried and Fergus did go on in full harmony till
about 7 days ago. (Fergus did not like the way Armin did behave as a
policeman in past, but Armin did change that in a very positive way in my
eyes). The ones who did play policeman on a brute way did almost all
disapear from this newsgroup.

Please don't pay attention in what I did write in messages about your
opinion before this one, maybe I was to fast in giving that, sorry for that?



Cor

 

[Slonocode]

There are several tools available which make life easier, for example
<http://flash.to/oe-quotefix/>.

Thank you I will try it out.

Herfried, I do not have much more to say on this subject but I want to point
out something here.

LOL. Armin and I are always friendly, there are other people like
Fergus Cooney who insult other people in the public groups.

By saying that you are always friendly you completely ignore the fact that
several people(and not just Fergus) have tried to convey to you that
sometimes you don't come across that way.
By not acknowledging that you further reinforce that perception.

When reading all the replies some people mentioned that they _have_
problems accessing certain messages and wold like people to post
messages which stick to the netikette.

I hope the guys who now create non-standard posts will read that and
will improve their posting style so everybody here will benefit.

Here again you fail to acknowledge that there has been criticism of you
also.
By failing to acknowledge this fact your message loses some credibility.


--Slonocode

 

[Armin Zingler]

I would also encourage Herfried and Armin to calm down a little and
try to understand how they are being perceived by the rest of the
community. Try and understand how the wording and tone of their
posts are being perceived by the rest of the community.

First, I'd like to say that there is still a big difference between Herfried
and me! (sorry Herfried ;-)

Second, I've really no idea why I should calm down. I'm not upset at all.
Could you please show me an example where I chose the wrong tone?

Third, please also turn to those people (I hope this is not interpreted as a
command because it's just a friendly request) that behave like they are
alone in this group. Neither *I* post attachments, nor *I* make fullquotes,
nor *I* abuse this group for OT discussions (apart from those we are
currently talking about) because there are seperate groups for them. Could
you please also tell those people that they also shouldn't direct me how I
have to behave? They are those that start endless discussions (that I try
to avoid now), I only try to react. Before they started writing to
this group, nobody told me what I have to say and how I have to do
it. I also don't understand why *I* am blamed for starting discussions
just because I'm patient in trying to explain why some things make
sense and why they have proven to be sensible in the past years.
If even objective statements are ignored, why don't you criticize those that
ignore them?

Fourth, it's the right of everyone to point people to this and that, so
everybody or better nobody should be called "policeman". Nobody ever claimed
for any exclusive rights, so please (again, it's only a friendly request
(I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't know how else I can be as
friendly as possible)) don't limit your critisism only to me and
Herfried. Maybe you just didn't catch who started the discussions so you are
mixing up the cause and the reaction (that's no problem because you said
you are new to this group).



I thought we always should show consideration for other people reading this
group. If most people think that the attitude

"I do post attachments because I
don't care about those that didn't ask for them. There is a better way that
helps everybody, but I don't care. I keep making fullquotes because I don't
care about the bandwith of other people and about the same quotes being
stored and transmitted several times. I also start discussions although
there are seperate groups. I don't care that, once started, this might lead
to more and more OT discussions."

is to be supported, then I really think something is going wrong. I don't
understand it, but it's not a problem because I don't
have to read this group and nobody really needs my help, but I am
surprised that there is such a big difference to the German groups concerning
respect, being open-minded for new suggestions and in dealing with each other.

 

[Cor]

Armin,

It seems I am making the long thread today, sorry, but I want that we have
that good newsgroup what it was till a week ago again.

I promish you that when Fergus calls you a policeman, I will reply him. It
is absolute not true anymore.

And I even believe that Fergus is not talking about Herfried or you as
policeman anymore, now you both are just telling people that there are
better groups for there problems. And you even corrrect Herfried when he
makes mistakes in that.



Cor

 

[Mick Doherty]

Good Afternoon. Have you guys been up all night?

In that last OT thread, I'll agree, I did just that. However, in a previous
thread I was jumped upon and dictated to. Maybe that was not their
intention, but that's how I perceived it.
I will continue to post messages in the form in which I prefer to receive
them. Anyone who does not like that, has the choice not to download them. If
they choose to do so, then they should accept that that is their choice. If
that opinion makes me Ignorant then, I'm sorry but, I'm not about to change.

by the way, did you notice that you included the entire thread in this
message. That is a serious misconduct that simply won't be tolerated in this
group, and the reason for my first OT discussion. ;-)

No hard feelings. I still love everyone in the group and hope they continue
to give the quality support they have in the past (even if it's not in my
preferred format).

 

[steve]

;^)


oh crap! i did it again! lol

steve


| Good Afternoon. Have you guys been up all night?
|
| In that last OT thread, I'll agree, I did just that. However, in a
previous
| thread I was jumped upon and dictated to. Maybe that was not their
| intention, but that's how I perceived it.
| I will continue to post messages in the form in which I prefer to receive
| them. Anyone who does not like that, has the choice not to download them.
If
| they choose to do so, then they should accept that that is their choice.
If
| that opinion makes me Ignorant then, I'm sorry but, I'm not about to
change.
|
| by the way, did you notice that you included the entire thread in this
| message. That is a serious misconduct that simply won't be tolerated in
this
| group, and the reason for my first OT discussion. ;-)
|
| No hard feelings. I still love everyone in the group and hope they
continue
| to give the quality support they have in the past (even if it's not in my
| preferred format).
|
| | > mick...i don't know why you're complaining here...you threw the first
| > stone...and the fun just continued.
| >
| > ;^)
| >
| >
| > | > | You're right it is becoming Tiresome.
| > | I've been involved Today and have been defending my right to reply as
I
| > see
| > | fit. I reply to messages in the way that I like to recieve them. I
don't
| > | care how anyone else responds, that is their choice. Nobody has to
read
| my
| > | replies.
| > |
| > | | > | > I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like
| > | quoting,
| > | > formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather
| tiresome
| > | and
| > | > it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the
| arguments.
| > | The
| > | > parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the
| > | community
| > | > as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen
| much
| > | if
| > | > any support from the community for one side or the other.
| > | >
| > | > So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues
raised
| in
| > | the
| > | > arguments?
| > | >
| > | > My views are as follows:
| > | >
| > | > On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less.
I
| > find
| > | > the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain
text
| > | using
| > | > OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that
| > | formats
| > | > the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem
| using
| > | it.
| > | > If the majority of the community does not format the messages then
it
| > | really
| > | > doesn't matter what characters are used.
| > | >
| > | > On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I
| > actually
| > | > prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a
response.
| > Or
| > | > at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back
| and
| > | > forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the
| context
| > | of
| > | > a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the
| > size
| > | of
| > | > responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the
| > responses
| > | > impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see
| > value
| > | in
| > | > keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a
very
| > | small
| > | > portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I
would
| > | > categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no
| idea
| > | > whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying
| to
| > be
| > | > enforced.
| > | >
| > | > Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to
| get
| > | > under the skin.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the
majority
| > of
| > | > the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work
| > towards
| > | > making that happen.
| > | >
| > | > --Slonocode
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Mick Doherty]

LOL

EOT

;^)


oh crap! i did it again! lol

steve


| Good Afternoon. Have you guys been up all night?
|
| In that last OT thread, I'll agree, I did just that. However, in a
previous
| thread I was jumped upon and dictated to. Maybe that was not their
| intention, but that's how I perceived it.
| I will continue to post messages in the form in which I prefer to receive
| them. Anyone who does not like that, has the choice not to download them.
If
| they choose to do so, then they should accept that that is their choice.
If
| that opinion makes me Ignorant then, I'm sorry but, I'm not about to
change.
|
| by the way, did you notice that you included the entire thread in this
| message. That is a serious misconduct that simply won't be tolerated in
this
| group, and the reason for my first OT discussion. ;-)
|
| No hard feelings. I still love everyone in the group and hope they
continue
| to give the quality support they have in the past (even if it's not in my
| preferred format).
|
| | > mick...i don't know why you're complaining here...you threw the first
| > stone...and the fun just continued.
| >
| > ;^)
| >
| >
| > | > | You're right it is becoming Tiresome.
| > | I've been involved Today and have been defending my right to reply as
I
| > see
| > | fit. I reply to messages in the way that I like to recieve them. I
don't
| > | care how anyone else responds, that is their choice. Nobody has to
read
| my
| > | replies.
| > |
| > | | > | > I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like
| > | quoting,
| > | > formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather
| tiresome
| > | and
| > | > it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the
| arguments.
| > | The
| > | > parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the
| > | community
| > | > as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen
| much
| > | if
| > | > any support from the community for one side or the other.
| > | >
| > | > So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues
raised
| in
| > | the
| > | > arguments?
| > | >
| > | > My views are as follows:
| > | >
| > | > On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less.
I
| > find
| > | > the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain
text
| > | using
| > | > OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that
| > | formats
| > | > the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem
| using
| > | it.
| > | > If the majority of the community does not format the messages then
it
| > | really
| > | > doesn't matter what characters are used.
| > | >
| > | > On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I
| > actually
| > | > prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a
response.
| > Or
| > | > at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back
| and
| > | > forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the
| context
| > | of
| > | > a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the
| > size
| > | of
| > | > responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the
| > responses
| > | > impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see
| > value
| > | in
| > | > keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a
very
| > | small
| > | > portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I
would
| > | > categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no
| idea
| > | > whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying
| to
| > be
| > | > enforced.
| > | >
| > | > Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to
| get
| > | > under the skin.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the
majority
| > of
| > | > the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work
| > towards
| > | > making that happen.
| > | >
| > | > --Slonocode
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

Armin, Cor,

It seems I am making the long thread today, sorry, but I want that we have
that good newsgroup what it was till a week ago again.

I promish you that when Fergus calls you a policeman, I will reply him. It
is absolute not true anymore.

And I even believe that Fergus is not talking about Herfried or you as
policeman anymore, now you both are just telling people that there are
better groups for there problems. And you even corrrect Herfried when he
makes mistakes in that.

Full ACK!

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

Herfried, I do not have much more to say on this subject but I want to point
out something here.


By saying that you are always friendly you completely ignore the fact that
several people(and not just Fergus) have tried to convey to you that
sometimes you don't come across that way.
By not acknowledging that you further reinforce that perception.

I am not a native English speaker. I learned German at school and I am
speaking German in Austria. At school we learned that saying "please"
and "thanks" is _friendly_. We didn't learn that calling sombody
"Pompous Little Shit" (like Fergus Cooney does) is frienly.

Here again you fail to acknowledge that there has been criticism of you
also.

I think the paragraph above explains the reasons.

By failing to acknowledge this fact your message loses some credibility.

See my comment above.

 

[Fergus Cooney]

I learned the basics in school too. Like all children I was taught most
concepts in a simplified form. As adults we are a long way beyond kindergarten
and have discovered, therefore, many new angles on things that were once very
simple.

The most friendly words can be used as the sharpest barbs. 'Please' and
'thanks' can be used in an authoritative manner. And a phrase like 'Pompous
Little Shit' can be said in a friendly way - it just depends, as Cor pointed
out before, on the facial expression (and other body language) and on the tone
of voice.

It is a shame that these aspects of communication are lost when
transferred to black and white for they can and do lead to all sorts of
misunderstandings.

Fergus

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

The most friendly words can be used as the sharpest barbs. 'Please' and
'thanks' can be used in an authoritative manner. And a phrase like 'Pompous

I never used them in this manner. It depends on your interpreation.

Little Shit' can be said in a friendly way

Did you say it in a friendly way?

- it just depends, as Cor pointed
out before, on the facial expression (and other body language) and on the tone
of voice.

I didn't see your face when calling me "Pompous Little Shit". That's
why I interpreted it as an insult. Without the facial expression
"Please" and "Thanks" are "friendly", "Pompous Little Shit" is very
unfriendly.

It is a shame that these aspects of communication are lost when
transferred to black and white for they can and do lead to all sorts of
misunderstandings.

ACK. That's the main problem of eletronic text-based communication.
IMO one reason why it doesn't make much sense to write words which are
only understood in the right way with the corresponding facial
expression.

--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>

Improve your quoting style:
<http://learn.to/quote>
<http://www.plig.net/nnq/nquote.html>

 

[Fergus Cooney]

Hello Herfried,

|| > The most friendly words can be used as the sharpest barbs.
|| > 'Please' and 'thanks' can be used in an authoritative manner.
||
|| I never used them in this manner.

You may not have <intended> to.

|| It depends on your [the listener's] interpreation.

Exactly! Say it one way - it's taken another. <Intentions> exist in the
mind of the person transmitting. Similarly, <interpretations> exist in the
receiver. The transmission protocol, being human, is an extraordinarily
inexact protocol.

An effective communicator is one who has learned how certain styles of
message will be received by different types of people - regardless of the
intentions.

Knowing the varieties of people within the audience is key. A good
communicator will augment the message to <raise the probability> of a good
reception by the widest audience. A poor communicator will blame the audience
for misunderstanding. Failing to take that responsibility is to discard
opportunities to learn because useful evidence will be rejected without fair
evaluation.

|| > It is a shame that these aspects of communication are lost
|| > when transferred to black and white for they can and do
|| > lead to all sorts of misunderstandings.
||
|| ACK. That's the main problem of eletronic text-based
|| communication.
||
|| IMO one reason why it doesn't make much sense to write
|| words which are only understood in the right way with the
|| corresponding facial expression.

Thank you Herfried, that is the <main point> in my argument against terse
redirections!

The more words are used to qualify a message, the more chance there is of
accurate communication. More words make up for loss of voice tone and body
language. An old phrase reversed - 'a thousand words are worth a single
picture'.

|| Without the facial expression "Please" and "Thanks" are "friendly"

Your <own points> stated and expanded on above should tell you that
"'please' and 'thanks <are> friendly"
is an <intention> rather than a statement of fact. These words, like all
others, have to be interpreted within a context. The truth is that they <may>
be taken as friendly, and, of course, they may be taken as <unfriendly>.

It's down to interpretation again. And wishing that it's taken the right
way is useless. For many people, 'please', within a command, adds a mere
veneer of friendliness to the command. For other people it's different. Reach
all or reach a few? Make <them> responsible for reading your mind, or accept
the responsibility of choosing words well?

Fergus