OT -- objections to .NET

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mark Warner
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Mr. F says "Hi said:
I've been a scathing critic of Microsh!t attitudes, policies, products for
years. Then I discovered and learned .NET - and I think it's wonderful. Not
perfect, of course, but at last something that, from this developer's POV at
least, is highly praiseworthy. I even liked it enough to volunteer on the
Microsoft vb.net newsgroup for long hours.
Such a complete turnabout feels very strange but one that I'm glad has
happened. I understand, however, how many see .NET as a threat, another
encroachment ... or whatever. The scope of .NET is vast, the amount to be
learned is vast, the ambitions of Microsoft for this technology ... well,
you get the picture - and that will be seen as a threat too. But there's
much to be gained as well.

:-)
Click to expand...

That may be so, but I'll not play along with uncle Billy's goal of
renting software rather than allowing it to be permanently installed
on one's computer. And *that* IS the ultimate agenda behind getting
everybody to install and use dotnet. It's also the reason they're
pushing XML so hard. If you don't believe me, look here:

http://www.microsoft.com/net/basics/

Software as "services" indeed. No thanks.

--
Regards from John Corliss
No adware, cdware, commercial software, crippleware, demoware,
nagware, shareware, spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses
or warez please.

Because Andy Mabbett is stalking me in this group, I have him killfiled.
 
Mark said:
The recent discussions about the NASA program as well as my research
into some of the Gmail poppers has brought up the subject of dot NET. Up
'til now I've avoided downloading it, but frankly, I can't remember why.
I recall it being viewed by some as another insidious M$ attempt to
introduce yet another proprietary format; I believe there were also
other concerns relating to DRM.

I'm not a raving Microsoft-phobe. On the other hand, I would prefer not
to give Gates & Co. any more control over my computer than absolutely
necessary. Hence my preference for freeware wherever practical (though
I'm not yet ready to make the move to Linux; it'll happen eventually).

Are the objections to dot NET another Chicken Little scenario, or are
there legitimate concerns that those of us who tend to be distrustful of
(but not overly paranoid about) Microsoft should be aware of?
Click to expand...

The Microsoft website that "provides specifics" about dotnet:

http://www.microsoft.com/net/basics/

is nebulous in the extreme (as usual). Microsoft has developed it's
own language for appearing to provide information without that being
the case. Whenever they do that, alarm warnings go off in my mind.
Other examples of this kind of behaviour:

The "Trused Computing" platform
Longhorn in general.

--
Regards from John Corliss
No adware, cdware, commercial software, crippleware, demoware,
nagware, shareware, spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses
or warez please.

Because Andy Mabbett is stalking me in this group, I have him killfiled.
 
John Corliss <[email protected]#> wrote:
Click to expand...
That may be so, but I'll not play along with uncle Billy's goal of
renting software rather than allowing it to be permanently installed
on one's computer. And *that* IS the ultimate agenda behind getting
everybody to install and use dotnet. It's also the reason they're
pushing XML so hard. If you don't believe me, look here:

Software as "services" indeed. No thanks.
Click to expand...

I'm leery also of anything MS does.

In this case, the services mentioned are primarily for business
applications that need connectivity. The .NET environment makes it
very easy for a company to setup a database server, commercial or
freeware, and write applications that allow different segments of the
company to update dynamic data and to receive access only to data the
segment needs to access.

It's pretty much like the ill-fated SAP program for dynamic and
centralized information technology for companies with branches spread
about, except that it works.
 
John said:
That may be so, but I'll not play along with uncle Billy's goal of
renting software rather than allowing it to be permanently installed on
one's computer.
Click to expand...

.... and we'll be permanently locked into it, too. Pretty soon, he'll
have a monopoly on the whole of computing, not just operating systems.

It'll be proprietory, bloated, and an alround mess.

Ideally, what we need is a free, nonproprietorial infrastructure. I
can't see that happening in the forseeable future, though.
 
Mark Carter <[email protected]> wrote:
Click to expand...
... and we'll be permanently locked into it, too. Pretty soon, he'll
have a monopoly on the whole of computing, not just operating systems.
Click to expand...
It'll be proprietory, bloated, and an alround mess.
Click to expand...
Ideally, what we need is a free, nonproprietorial infrastructure. I
can't see that happening in the forseeable future, though.
Click to expand...

Nonproprietorial, non-commercial, or non-MS?

*nix?
 
Linux - it's not there yet. It has still to crack desktops.
http://www.dotgnu.org/
Click to expand...

I'm wondering how much commercial software is written on top of LGPL.
Having to provide object files is something of a burden. Most of my
company's clients couldn't turn on a computer, let alone compile software.

And my next question (rhetorically) is: does it work? I mean, /really/ work?

Apologies if I sound cynical.
 
That may be so, but I'll not play along with uncle Billy's goal of
renting software rather than allowing it to be permanently installed
Click to expand...

John,

I certainly understand your concerns, but I have complete faith in computer
users. They will NEVER rent software. I think all but a scant few will
reject it out of hand.

Meanwhile, I have used dot net for a long while, and noticed nothing
objectionable going on. I also like the dot net apps I am using.

I only use Windows OS and 1 or 2 other MS programs, and maybe that's why I'm
not worried.

-- Bob
 
Linux - it's not there yet. It has still to crack desktops.
Click to expand...

The desktop is very solid. There is a learning curve. But, if someone
were trained on a linux machine they would have a similar curve in
trying Windows.

Open Office is just like Word, Excel, etc. The file managers do the
same things. Most programs for MS have clones in linux, or at least
very similar applications, most of which are free.

My problem is that modem manufacturers bow to MS and do not make
information available required to build good drivers for linux.

The source code is available, so anyone could potentially make it do
whatever they desired to do with it.
I'm wondering how much commercial software is written on top of LGPL.
Having to provide object files is something of a burden. Most of my
company's clients couldn't turn on a computer, let alone compile software.
Click to expand...
And my next question (rhetorically) is: does it work? I mean, /really/ work?
Click to expand...

It would be great if it does work as well as MS.NET!!!!
 
REM said:
The desktop is very solid. There is a learning curve. But, if someone
were trained on a linux machine they would have a similar curve in
trying Windows.
Click to expand...

Once it's set up, Linux is really good to use. I would expect an average
user to get used to it fairly quickly. The real rub is the installation
process. I tried a few of the so-called user-freindly distributions not
all that long ago, and I must say that I was disappointed. Suse, for
example, chewed up my XP partition. Thanks a lot, that's really
friendly! Mandrake seemed to be a bit arsey on installing stuff from CD
once it had been set up. Fedora had some wierdy problem, too. I found
that there was something to dislike in all three of these distributions.

Personally, I prefer Slackware, and have it set up on my machine at
home. I have the advantage of having an external router/modem. So for
me, setting up an internet connection was a doddle. It was even easier
than XP, because Slackware detected my ethernet card automatically,
whereas I had to install the drivers to get it run under XP.

The problem is, though, that many many people don't have an external
modem. They'll be stuck with nastey PCI or USB modems. Good luck trying
to get those set up!

The only way I see Linux gaining real acceptance is through big
companies. If big companies decided to make the switch to Linux for
their ordinary employees, then we might see a real switch towards Linux
in the home. I don't see any other way that it's going to happen.
My problem is that modem manufacturers bow to MS and do not make
information available required to build good drivers for linux.
Click to expand...

Indeed.
 
necessary. Hence my preference for freeware wherever practical (though
You may be interested in knowing that there's an effort to replicate
Windows NT for free:
www.reactos.com

Don't hold you breath, though. I think there's some way to go, to put it
mildly.

The project is an interesting idea. No more driver issues; ReactOs will
work wherever NT works.

I'm wondering to what extent it's on Bill's radar.
 
Bob said:
John,
I certainly understand your concerns, but I have complete faith in computer
users. They will NEVER rent software. I think all but a scant few will
reject it out of hand.
Meanwhile, I have used dot net for a long while, and noticed nothing
objectionable going on. I also like the dot net apps I am using.
I only use Windows OS and 1 or 2 other MS programs, and maybe that's why I'm
not worried.
Click to expand...

Well, to be fair I actually installed .NET on my system once and
noticed no problems. However, I uninstalled it because I couldn't see
any benefits. Maybe that situation has changed. I had to be dragged
screaming and kicking to download VB6 runtimes. 80)>

My concern about MS's not-so-hidden agenda mostly stems from
experiences with a version of their office suite continually prompting
me to put in the installation CD and install some componant or other
that SHOULD have been installed already IMO. My speculation is that
this is MS's way of getting users aclimated to continually downloading
modules in order to accomplish some task or another. Hell, generally
even if you want a graphic, you have to download it from MS's servers
because they don't include much on the CDs.

By comparison, I have never noticed OpenOffice.org engaging in such
idiotic behavior.

Unfortunately, give a company (MS) enough rope. I actually don't want
Microsoft to go out of business, just want them to start acting
decently and stop their predatory bullshit. They're alienating so many
people that in the end, they'll only hurt themselves.

--
Regards from John Corliss
No adware, cdware, commercial software, crippleware, demoware,
nagware, shareware, spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses
or warez please.

Because Andy Mabbett is stalking me in this group, I have him killfiled.
 
Mark said:
You may be interested in knowing that there's an effort to replicate
Windows NT for free:
www.reactos.com

Don't hold you breath, though. I think there's some way to go, to put it
mildly.

The project is an interesting idea. No more driver issues; ReactOs will
work wherever NT works.

I'm wondering to what extent it's on Bill's radar.
Click to expand...

Ain't a hell of a lot Bill can do as long as there's no reverse
engineering going on. Only thing that may apply is MS's recent spate
of patent acquisitions.

--
Regards from John Corliss
No adware, cdware, commercial software, crippleware, demoware,
nagware, shareware, spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses
or warez please.

Because Andy Mabbett is stalking me in this group, I have him killfiled.
 
John Corliss said:
My speculation is that this is MS's way of getting users aclimated
to continually downloading modules
Click to expand...

Yesterday, my mouse suddenly phoned home to those people.

http://www.redshift.com/~omega/clips/var/intellimouse.png
in order to accomplish some task or another.
Click to expand...

My mouse accomplishes all the tasks it's designed for, as it has for the
several years that it, and its drivers/sw pack, have been in use on this
machine. However...those people are evidently quite threatened by the
idea that one might wish to leave well enough alone. :)
 
omega said:
Yesterday, my mouse suddenly phoned home to those people.

http://www.redshift.com/~omega/clips/var/intellimouse.png


My mouse accomplishes all the tasks it's designed for, as it has for the
several years that it, and its drivers/sw pack, have been in use on this
machine. However...those people are evidently quite threatened by the
idea that one might wish to leave well enough alone. :)
Click to expand...

Yep, my MS mouse did exactly the same thing but right off the bat. I
simply made a Kerio rule to block such activity for all time until
hell freezes over. Hope you did the same.

--
Regards from John Corliss
No adware, cdware, commercial software, crippleware, demoware,
nagware, shareware, spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses
or warez please.

Because Andy Mabbett is stalking me in this group, I have him killfiled.
 
Unfortunately, give a company (MS) enough rope. I actually don't want
Microsoft to go out of business, just want them to start acting
decently and stop their predatory bullshit. They're alienating so many
people that in the end, they'll only hurt themselves.
Click to expand...

Well, I do agree MS is predatory and tries to manipulate the entire market.

Except for OS, they are getting REAL competition for the rest of their
products. When they quit virtually giving away their software to gain market
share, people will jump to other programs in droves. The smart ones see it
coming and have already jumped.

I'm still pragmatic about .NET. No harm, no foul. However, the first time it
crosses me, it's outta here. :)

-- Bob
 
John Corliss said:
Yep, my MS mouse did exactly the same thing but right off the bat. I
simply made a Kerio rule to block such activity for all time until
hell freezes over. Hope you did the same.
Click to expand...

You betcha, the rules are now set to deny.

It was my first time for that message...

Not too proud about it, but to confess: I only took up use of a firewall
a bit over a year ago. And it took some time before I became consistent
about executing it upon each of my dialups. (Initially I was primarily
most motivated to launch the firewall app only after certain activities,
such as usenet posting, made my IP public, those situations where there
follows a rampant increase in entries in Kerio's inbound
block log.)

So, due to my late arrival on firewall habits, my mouse would have been
conducting the secret conversations with origin2.microsoft.com for a
couple of years. As, to what they were talking about, who knows. :)

I'm not sure at what frequency MS hardware is designed to call home.
I am looking at one registry key for this Intellimouse (4x) just now.
One that gets a lot of activity. I'm only guessing, but it seems that
this key might be to do with the calling home.

[HKCU\Control Panel\Microsoft Input Devices\Mouse\AutoUpdate]
"AutoUpdateCurrentCount"="22"
"AutoUpdateEnabled"="1"
"AutoUpdateFirstCheck"="15"
"AutoUpdateInterval"="30"
"AutoUpdateCycleCount"="288"

Looks to me that my mouse has been conducting quite a number of secret
conversations with those people. I'm going to try changing the Enabled
value to "0." And of course swear to keep Kerio consistently enabled.
So it can protect me from any more of this krappp.

Silly me: I'd thought I only bought hardware. (I use msft keyboards, as
well as their mice.)
 
John Corliss said:
My concern about MS's not-so-hidden agenda mostly stems from
experiences with a version of their office suite continually prompting
me to put in the installation CD and install some componant or other
that SHOULD have been installed already IMO.
Click to expand...
[...]
MSO 2000 onward became horribly corrupt, with its nasty, hardwired
integration of MSI for seizing control. I've been considering going
back, and doing an install of MS Office 97. It might be a bit inferior
in html-related needs, and whatever else. But at least it has enough
minimal respect to behave as a normal, installed application. It's not
all fixated with controlling my every move. MSI that is integrated
into later Office, it furiously tracks each move you make, each Office
component used, and how many times, into its massive private database
that it stores in your registy.
 
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