J
Jan Panteltje
Is that so? Did not know... How about XFree? (what I run).NOT X Windows.
It is X Window (singular).
Is that so? Did not know... How about XFree? (what I run).NOT X Windows.
It is X Window (singular).
You mean you cowboys learned it from the injuns?WTF are you on about now? Maybe you Europeons haven't invented fire yet?
I will have to look at that, local connects work fine for all users...Yes, and I frequently see X screens just populated with
a series of xterms. Personally, I prefer using SVGATextMode
and running Linux virtual consoles at 160x73 chars.
Yes, and gpm does the cut'n'paste in CLI
Nope. Didn't work for me.
I've heard people describe Windows menuing interface as intuitive - what
utter tripe!... consistent *can* be its strength if programmers don't
wander too far. While I think we're all aware of the strengths of a CLI,
any suggestion of going without a GUI would be absurd - Jan's GUI avoidance
is err, perverted.
George Macdonald said:Hmm, I have to say I've found grep et.al. umm, also easy to
forget - I've invested the "time" 3 or 4 times over many years
with each new brush with Unix *and* had to endure the (x)sh
du jour and even had to mess with two different flavors at the
same time at one point... which I found extremely frustrating.
I've heard people describe Windows menuing interface as intuitive
- what utter tripe!...
consistent *can* be its strength if programmers don't wander
too far. While I think we're all aware of the strengths of a
CLI, any suggestion of going without a GUI would be absurd -
Jan's GUI avoidance is err, perverted.
The little lost angel said:Hmm interesting! I didn't know the shells can do filename
completion nowadays! That might make things a lot easier. Every
year or so, I make one attempt at setting up a *nix box and it
always end up as too much of a tedium to use
Even MS-WinNT cmd.exe has filename completion (but not command
completion). You many need to adjust registry settings under
HKLM\sw\MS\Command Processor , but I believe XP has reasonable
defaults [TAB].
I've heard people describe Windows menuing interface as intuitive - what
utter tripe!... consistent *can* be its strength if programmers don't
wander too far. While I think we're all aware of the strengths of a CLI,
any suggestion of going without a GUI would be absurd - Jan's GUI avoidance
is err, perverted.
You mean you cowboys learned it from the injuns?
Yes make fun of it, I put some desktop shots here, as ftp seems to have been
censored in the US ;-)
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/d/
The strange thing is GUIs are aplenty on his screenshots....
For me, it's the other 'way around. Any suggestion of going
without a CLI is absurd in the long term. I can suffer for a
short while if I don't have admin to do. But it is painfully
slow and inflexible. With ssh, I can work across the 'net on
my home computer _exactly_ as if I were at the console. My mail
goes into the same folders, my usenet .newsrc is current and my
web favorites and cache are all there. I can easily & temporarily
run `putty` on most unlocked MS-Windows machines.
Graphics are only rarely important, like when I want to watch
traffic maps, weather or hurricane tracks. Perhaps I should
look into SVGAlib so I don't need to load X. I can navigate
most websites (except my bank's) with `links`.
Then I'm even worse. I load X less than once per day.
(I've been MS-free for 5+ years except at work). I can see
GUIs have some use. Just not much for me. I would have to
give up too much.
George Macdonald said:But it sounds to me like Jan is trying to "sell" a vertical
solution to end users - most people can't cope with anything
more than a browser.
I don't think I could go "back" to something like `links`
- sounds like wearing a hair shirt to me.
On the subject of M$ dependency, I came across this last night:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/12/AR2006021200942.html
$22Billion and this is what they came up with! I can't
see any mention of what the actual dependency is -- ActiveX
maybe? -- but it's odd that they only mention Mac users as
those who are excluded.
George Macdonald said:Censored? I don't think so - you just don't know how to do
it apparently.
If you were expecting people to run an FTP to download *your*
files, which could be infections for all we know, and then
run them through a viewer program you're as daft as a brush.
As for the content, I still don't know what you're trying to
present here: so you have a few graphical interface progs
which run under X. So bloody what? You think we've never
seen an X application before?
On the subject of M$ dependency, I came across this last night:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/12/AR2006021200942.html
$22Billion and this is what they came up with! I can't see any mention of
what the actual dependency is -- ActiveX maybe? -- but it's odd that they
only mention Mac users as those who are excluded.
I agree Jan's ftpd looked very misconfigured. I tried it
from three different machines, one in Europe.
I disagree. I fully expect something as simple as a viewer
to be free of exploits, if not entirely bug-free. I won't
blame data for malevolence. Users have responsibilities too.
Agreed. I wasn't sure what the point was, other than it seemed
Jan had a borderless shell running, and X apps pasted overtop
(perhaps without stealing focus?).
I agree Jan's ftpd looked very misconfigured. I tried it
from three different machines, one in Europe.
I disagree. I fully expect something as simple as a viewer
to be free of exploits, if not entirely bug-free. I won't
blame data for malevolence. Users have responsibilities too.
Agreed. I believe that people should choose their own tools.
Only they know enough to decide for themselves. But I also
believe that all alternatives should be presented.
Of course there's no disputing taste. But I have my choice
of browsers, and I almost always prefer `links` (I migrated
from lynx a few years ago). Pages load quicker, without
distracting backgrounds, fonts, photographs/ads.
There's a correction on the top of the page, that's 22
_million_ devcost. Still, your point is well taken.
It's at least a 220 jobyear effort.
They probably don't have data for Linux. It could be ActiveX
or some binary applet that gets dropped. It might be a simple IE
dependancy. I think MS-IE for Mac has been on-again, off-again.
In any case, I think it's appalling. That project spec should
have had target platforms that would include the Mac, Suns
and non-IE browsers. Especially since AFAIK the NIST still
considers MS-IE insecure and recommends alternatives be used.
George Macdonald said:I've been surprised/stunned by the uptake of the graphical
browser as a sort of universal interface to just about any
application you want. Corps love it: low training/edu cost;
IT takes back control, of computing resource *and* data... and
over WAN, not just local.
Based on my comments above on potential browser ubiquity,
this situation needs to be fixed *badly* and *quickly* -
mean the mechanisms and their standardization not just this
one example. I see there's a project, already available in
Beta, for an ActiveX plugin for Mozilla/Firefox/Seamonkey
but while maybe useful... wrong end of the horse IMO.