News Reader

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Hypot

It is more logical to start reading at the top of the thread,
not the penultimate message in the thread. That way you avoid
making a contribution that goes over old ground.
Click to expand...

When you realize that Usenet is not the Web, not email, not your
personal form of communication with an individual, has norms that have
been in place for more than 20 years, you have two options, follow the
norms or disrespect the medium and users.
 
Leythos

When was this standard set? Is it relevant today? Why
does it matter?

How would you have me configure it?

Are you seeking a positive dialogue?

--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England

Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Gordon

The previous thread in Outlook Express is above not below.

--

Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England

Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Leythos

That suggests you feel form is more important than content.

The market place put Outlook Express where it is today.
Whilst may users "hate" Microsoft for it's disregard of ideas
promulgated 20 years ago what is the purpose in continually
decrying what has come to pass. If another mail / newsreader
offers a better service then users will move on regardless
of what a small group dreamed of as Utopia 20 years ago.

BTW I know this small group is still active because my
daughter's father-in-law travels the world to Conferences.

--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England

Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Leythos

When was this standard set?
Click to expand...

When Usenet started and was made available outside the testing phase -
long before it hit the public - early 80's.
Is it relevant today?
Click to expand...

Yes, Usenet has not changed, just the people using it - some are
respectful of the medium and the servers, others feel that they should
be able to do anything that want in any manner they want and to heck
with anyone/anything else.
Why does it matter?
Click to expand...

The methods have not changed in 2 decades, the fact that it's a text
based medium has not changed in more than 2 decades.

Unil MS permitted the masses of non-technical people to gain access, via
outlook express, to Usenet, 99.999999% of the people accessing it used
proper Usenet clients and understood that it was not email and not
personal communications just between two individuals.

There are still Usenet servers that have limited retention, lack of
storage space, slow connections, etc...
How would you have me configure it?
Click to expand...

Follow the standards:

1) Snip any text you don't need to show reason for your reply
2) Add your reply below the text you quote in your reply, inline or at
the bottom (depends on how many different subjects are being responded
too)
3) Create a norm sig - 4-5 lines
4) Use a proper Usenet client that snips everything below the sig
delimiter.
Are you seeking a positive dialogue?
Click to expand...

If I wasn't sensing that you were sincere I would not be posting a
reply.
 
Leythos

That suggests you feel form is more important than content.
Click to expand...

No, I feel that it's very easy to provide content without disrespecting
the standing form, and this interchange shows that it's true.
The market place put Outlook Express where it is today.
Click to expand...

No, MS put OE where it is today. If you look at the other solutions in
use (non-MS) around the world, people use Proper Usenet clients and do
not seek to try and make OE work on their systems. Even Thunderbird,
current versions, does a better job at being a proper usenet client than
OE.
Whilst may users "hate" Microsoft for it's disregard of ideas
promulgated 20 years ago what is the purpose in continually
decrying what has come to pass.
Click to expand...

Nothing has come to pass except the increase of the ignorant masses
accessing Usenet (and that's not said with disrespect) and the self
centered people that don't care about norms or proper methods - the ME
generation.
If another mail / newsreader
offers a better service then users will move on regardless
of what a small group dreamed of as Utopia 20 years ago.
Click to expand...

Not true at all. Most people are blindly ignorant of what is/was and
just keep using what is put in front of them, as is shown by users that
keep using IE or OE. If people were motivated enough to learn a little
they would switch to something more in line with Standards, less prone
to exploits, etc...

If Usenet has not changed in that 20 years, and the only real change is
the introduction of Usenet clients that don't follow the
norms/standards, then isn't the problem really the broken clients?
BTW I know this small group is still active because my
daughter's father-in-law travels the world to Conferences.
Click to expand...

I don't understand what you mean by the above.
 
When Usenet started and was made available outside the
testing phase - long before it hit the public - early 80's.


Yes, Usenet has not changed, just the people using it -
some are respectful of the medium and the servers, others
feel that they should be able to do anything that want in
any manner they want and to heck with anyone/anything else.


The methods have not changed in 2 decades, the fact that
it's a text based medium has not changed in more than 2
decades.

Unil MS permitted the masses of non-technical people to
gain access, via outlook express, to Usenet, 99.999999% of
the people accessing it used proper Usenet clients and
understood that it was not email and not personal
communications just between two individuals.

There are still Usenet servers that have limited retention,
lack of storage space, slow connections, etc...


Follow the standards:

1) Snip any text you don't need to show reason for your
reply 2) Add your reply below the text you quote in your
reply, inline or at the bottom (depends on how many
different subjects are being responded too)
3) Create a norm sig - 4-5 lines
4) Use a proper Usenet client that snips everything below
the sig delimiter.
Click to expand...

There are proper clients around--I'm using one, as are you.

I was one of the original beta group when w95 was coming out.
Although I don't recall exactly, I do remember that the w95
messaging format (via the original IE) had a similar dialoging
feel as the current OE. It's my recollection that few people
liked it. I abandonned it in favor of the news reader in the
decimal-level betas of the orignal (great) Netscape product.

Kept on using the Netscape reader until they screwed it up. I
moved to xnews and have stayed there ever since. That doesn't
mean I haven't done forays into the newer packages. I just don't
like them near so much as what I'm using.

I subscribe to perhaps a dozen non-manufacturer newsgroups.
Universally they embrace the historically accepted protocols you
accurately describe.

FWIW, I'm able to go through groups with hundreds of articles in
just a matter of minutes. Maybe I could do that with OE, but I
doubt it.

Flatus
 
Gerry said:
Gordon

The previous thread in Outlook Express is above not below.
Click to expand...

This thread is about top and bottom posting. therefore my post was ON TOPIC.
Go away and do some auditing.
 
Click the Sent header to sort the other direction. ;-)

--
Hope this helps. Let us know.

Wes
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User

In
 
This thread is about top and bottom posting. therefore my post was ON TOPIC.
Go away and do some auditing.
Click to expand...

Actually, it's about News Reader. The idea of top/bottom posting is only
part of a method based on users preferences or lack of knowing there are
proper ways to post.
 
Leythos said:
Actually, it's about News Reader.
Click to expand...

Yes I know. But Mr Cornell was debating the merits of top and bottom posting
within this thread, therefore his reply to me was out of order.
 
Yes I know. But Mr Cornell was debating the merits of top and bottom posting
within this thread, therefore his reply to me was out of order.
Click to expand...

Then he's not using a quality Usenet client - or he would already be
properly bottom posting instead of top-posting.
 
My whole point was that top, bottom or interspersed posting is all a matter
of personal choice.

If you want to Toyota post and snip the Fords and Chevys, then that's just
alright. ;-)

--
Hope this helps. Let us know.

Wes
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User

In
 
123WVogel955 said:
My whole point was that top, bottom or interspersed posting is all a matter
of personal choice.
Click to expand...

So, you're saying that your preference is to disrespect the tradition
and standards instead of properly following the norms and standards.
 
Apples and oranges, you netnanny troll.

| Wesley Vogel wrote:
|
| > My whole point was that top posting is all a
| > matter of personal choice.
|
| So you read books, magazines and newspapers from the bottom up? Cool!
 
Apples and oranges, you netnanny troll.
Click to expand...

Tom, I think the point is that OE and some Web interfaces for Usenet
don't follow the standards that have not change and that the Usenet
service has not change in 20+ years.

What has changed during those 20+ years is the addition of broken
interfaces from MS and web based interfaces (mostly poor interfaces) to
Usenet.

One other thing has change, the addition of people that believe the
world revolves around them and to heck with all of the proper
methods/standards that make this medium easy and consistent.

When this subject path comes up, there is always someone that feels it
is people trying to impose their will on others, when, in reality, it's
just a sign of disrespect for wanting to put ones own desires over the
rest of the communities standards and methods.
 
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