Is VB Caca??

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

Göran,

Everyone said that there were no background compilation in C#, and only
because I was so stubborn, now everyone is only talking about the
difference in the background compilation.

That means that I was really right from the start. There is background
compilation in C#, despite what everybody with "the experience" said, and
there is only a difference in what it does.

I would not consider some basic syntax checks "background compilation"
(which is, using terminology commonly utilized when speaking about Microsoft
IDEs, the feature VB has and C# doesn't have).

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

Göran,

No, I don't have any problem understanding what you are saying. I just
can't understand the reasoning in how you first say that there is no
background compilation in C#, and then go on to compare how the background
compilation works in C# and VB.NET.

It's like saying that you don't have a dog, and besides it doesn't bark
that much anyway...

A baby carriage may have wheels, but this doesn't make it a car.

Funny how every first denied that there was background compilation in C#,
but now confirms that it's there by discussing how it works.

No, it isn't, at least not when speaking to people from Microsoft.

Here is an older article written by Paul Vick about background compilation
(#1 Google hits on the term "background compilation", followed by lots of
articles about VB (and the lack of background compilation in C#)):

<URL:http://www.panopticoncentral.net/archive/2004/02/25/276.aspx>
<URL:http://www.panopticoncentral.net/archive/2004/03/19/291.aspx>

However, the term is used for a completely different feature in at least one
paper (<URL:http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=902398>).

 

[Scott M.]

Yep. Build and build again.

You can't even fix the line in C# and see if you fixed it right w/o
re-building. Drives me nuts.

Robin S.

 

[Scott M.]

Well, you said a bit more than that when pressed:

Scott M:

No, it's not. In VB.NET, as soon as you move your cursor off the current
line, the dynamic compilation feature of the language/VS.NET will check
the code on that line for syntax and compile errors and you will get the
infamous "blue wavy underline" right away.

Goran:
Yes. That's how it works in C# too. Only as it's not line based, it will
also do the check if you pause for a second while typing a line.

Scott M:

In C#, you must build your code to get the same syntax checking. C# is
not dynamically compiled like VB.NET is.

?Goran:
In Visual Stuido 2005 it is.

Both of your responses above were/are not correct. You do not get the
"blue-wavy" right away and you do not get it at all in most cases unless you
manually build your code. This is also how it works in 2005.

I am only saying that there is backgrond compilation in C#, which everybody
first denied. Do you say that I have no experience of programming in C#?

 

[Scott M.]

What happens in C# can hardly be called dynamic compilation. Very basic
syntax checking is what it is, not compilation. If it were compilation, you
would get error messages that can only be determined by compiling.

Syntax checking != Dynamic Compilaiton

Everyone said that there were no background compilation in C#, and only
because I was so stubborn, now everyone is only talking about the
difference in the background compilation.

That means that I was really right from the start. There is background
compilation in C#, despite what everybody with "the experience" said, and
there is only a difference in what it does.

 

[Scott M.]

What I have been comparing is VB .NET's "dynamic compilation" and C#'s
syntax checking.

Where you are going wrong here is since they both happen in front of your
eyes, you are saying they are both the same process. I have been telling
you that what you see happening automatically, in front of your eyes,
happens to a different extent, based on the language you are using. And the
reason it happens to a different extent is because there are two different
things happening.

 

[Tom Leylan]

A baby carriage may have wheels, but this doesn't make it a car.

Herfried you seem like a reasonable guy. Why do you suppose every
conversation about VB (and by extension VB.Net) turns into this sort of
thread?

If the VB developer is onto the greatest thing since sliced bread it seem
that the Java, C#, C++, et. al. crowds should be the one worrying about the
survival of the language they use or is that not logical? If businesses are
making the wrong language choice can I ask why some of you don't make the
effort to market what you know to be a superior solution?

They're looking for business solutions not language superiority arguments
don't you think?

 

[Tom Leylan]

I hang out in the C# group, and am not judgmental or derisive about C#.
And yes, I could be if I wanted to, but I think it's disrespectful of
other peoples' choices.

Robin... how about both? Isn't it possible to like (and favor) the IDE,
background compiling, etc. of VB.Net as a Java developer? Isn't it possible
(or shouldn't it be) to like C# but wonder what the advantage to a
case-sensitive language really is?

What is important is that people write effective, impactful, logical,
understandable code in whatever language they choose, and help their
customers do their jobs more effectively and more efficiently or help
their business obtain better results more easily, etc. Someone could write
a bad program in C# just as easily as they could in VB. They can also
write a good program in either language.

Exactly. Nobody with brains has suggested that all VB programs are poorly
written or that all C# are well-written.

 

[Tom Leylan]

It depends on how you define "reasonable". If you define it as someone who
agrees with you, than I'm probably not as reasonable as you would like.

I'm surprised that anybody believes I would define reasonable as agreeing
with me.

I always wonder what people think about me doing that. If people think
that is an inappropriate response, I can certainly stop. It is my
compassion for people who need help that encourages me.

I'm pretty sure nobody minds... it's just a bit funny because the questions
are so way off topic you have to wonder (as you have) how the people
stumbled onto the newsgroup and what led them to believe it was the place to
ask about installing a game on their video console

I don't agree with your analogy, if you are comparing VB to LA. You can't
really escape the smog in LA. You can escape poor coding in VB.

Most analogies leave a lot be desired.

Calling a function of a language "quirky" seems terribly judgmental.
Someone else could deem C# quirky in that it does not require curly braces
if there is only one sentence in an If/EndIf statement.

That's the point it isn't "judgemental" if by that you mean "bad". We all
make judgements some are poor judgements, others sound judgements. You
yourself just wrote "you can escape poor coding" which (if you intend to
rate some code as "poor") is a value judgement. People can deem all sorts
of things quirky but that doesn't pass the test. It's reasonable to
consider the non-requirement of braces in a one-line body of code a quirk
and I mentioned that one the other day at work.

C has quirks (here is a book review): C Puzzle Book, Alan R Feuer,
Addison-Wesley, 2nd edition 1999, ISBN 0201604612. The best ever book on
understanding the quirks of C and how to use pointers properly.

This is a fairly good article on the transition from VB6 to VB.Net
http://www.pcplus.co.uk/tutorials/software_development/visual_basic_6_will_not_die
which mentions quirks in VB.

(Please don't waste your breath arguing about whether that's quirky or
not. I didn't say it was quirky. I said someone else could deem it so.)
That's a matter of opinion. Quirky could also be redefined as
"language-specific".

You might consider taking a stand and calling it quirky. If you think it is
quirky and can explain why I don't see the problem if you were instead to
call people who use the language "dumb" I'd wonder why you think people
develop in it then. Newsgroups weren't invented so people could argue like
children in a playground but rather to supply a forum for discussion.

This comes across as really condescending. Microsoft has a real problem
with all of the VB6 work out there that has not been converted to VB.Net,
even 6 years after its introduction. You can think of it as placating, but
it can also be a business decision to not remove the "shortcuts" that are
imbedded all over the place, in order to make it (infinitesimally) easier
to move applications to .Net.

I'm sure it was a business decision what else could it be?

And before you throw the hammer at me, I will admit that I use the .Net
methods rather than the VB shortcuts. I do this because I program in both
VB and C#, and it is easier for me to switch back and forth.

What hammer? I've made the same suggestion to others on the off-chance they
find themselves supporting other .Net languages in the future. This isn't
my first language and it isn't the first time I've had to migrate code. I
try to reduce language-induced dependencies and caution others against it as
well. Few people understand the problem until the day arrives to make the
conversion and at that time they look for somebody to blame.

I guess I try to be mindful of other people's choices, and know that just
because I don't agree with it, it doesn't mean I'm 100% right.

Do people believe I didn't choose to use VB.Net? I've never told anybody
not to use it I've only suggested that poor code is poor code regardless of
the language (just as you have.)

Well, there may not be any better language on the face of the planet for
that developer. I can respect that and disagree with them without being
condescending about their choice.

That's the politician in you speaking. I won't give the practioner of
voodoo or a "psychic" the piece of mind to practice deceit without
challenge. It isn't condescending to point out "facts" and if a guy says he
can bend spoons with his mind I'm not dissing him by stating "no he can't."

Do you still think I'm reasonable?

You carried on a conversation and didn't resort to name calling so I'd say
yes.

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Tom,

80% of the long threads in this newsgroup are those were you and/or Goran
are involved in. Beside that they are like Scott has so well written looking
as a diahree of words.

Cor

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Michael,

Same idea as you here,

And although I don't know it, do I have the idea that management in Eastern
Asia don't have those strange ideas that development has to be done in Java
or a C language to be profesional as it is here and probably in the USA.
That was true in my idea 10 years ago, but there is now a better tool. But
those things need some time in old fashion part of the world.

Cor

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Goran,

You write in this thread exactly the same words as were done by the people
who could not believe that the disk could replace the punch card. That is no
analogy, it is an historical fact of exactly the same behaviour as you show
now in this business.

What is your goal by this than only showing that you have a very
conservative mind. You have showed this already enough to us, the problem
for us is however, that we will think about possibilities with our tools for
the future and for that use this newsgroup to communicate about.

Please keep your ideas about VB.Net for your own, until you have made
programs with it longer than 25 hours a week. For the rest you are forever
welcome here with positive ideas or questions.

Cor

 

[RobinS]

I suspect the WPF problems are more a case of MS running so far behind on
Vista that they cut corners on the new dotNet libraries. I do agree,
however, that unless MS starts treating VB as a first class language,
business developers will start moving away from VB, which also means that
they may simply move away from MS development languages all together.

Mike Ober.

I agree. It's very vexing.

Robin S.

 

[RobinS]

I'm surprised that anybody believes I would define reasonable as agreeing
with me.

I didn't say I did. I said it depended on how you define reasonable. ;-)

I'm pretty sure nobody minds... it's just a bit funny because the
questions are so way off topic you have to wonder (as you have) how the
people stumbled onto the newsgroup and what led them to believe it was
the place to ask about installing a game on their video console

Once in a while, one of them will even post back a response like, "Hey, it
must be the right place, there are all these Windows questions here." Talk
about a Catch-22. Poor suckers.

By the way, they stumble on to it because when posting a new post in the
newsgroups via the Microsoft Discussion Groups website, the dropdown list
does not have the actual names of the newsgroups, but a funked-up
description. Guess how many entries there are for "General Discussion" --
lots. I'm thinking anything ending in ".general" ends up with that
description. Now guess which one is probably close to the top, if not the
first one in the list...

I sent an e-mail to Microsoft about it. I figure they'll fix it about the
same time .Net 7.5 comes out.

Most analogies leave a lot be desired.
LOL.


That's the point it isn't "judgemental" if by that you mean "bad".

Don't you mean it *is* judgmental if by "quirky" you mean "bad"?

We all make judgements some are poor judgements, others sound judgements.
You yourself just wrote "you can escape poor coding" which (if you intend
to rate some code as "poor") is a value judgement. People can deem all
sorts of things quirky but that doesn't pass the test. It's reasonable
to consider the non-requirement of braces in a one-line body of code a
quirk and I mentioned that one the other day at work.

Well, I guess I'm quirky, because I like to have matching curly braces for
my If if I have them for my EndIf. Oh dear, my case is completely out of
whack in that sentence. Don't run it through the C# compiler.

C has quirks (here is a book review): C Puzzle Book, Alan R Feuer,
Addison-Wesley, 2nd edition 1999, ISBN 0201604612. The best ever book on
understanding the quirks of C and how to use pointers properly.

Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on your point of view), I never
learned C. I have managed to avoid it for 20 years. Yee-haw!

This is a fairly good article on the transition from VB6 to VB.Net
http://www.pcplus.co.uk/tutorials/software_development/visual_basic_6_will_not_die
which mentions quirks in VB.

LOL. Indeed it does. Irony: I've actually *read* that Bruce McKinney book,
and still have it in my library, until I manage to completely abandon VB6.
BTW, that article came out in October 2005, a couple of months before the
launch of VS2005.

I heard an MVP say the other day that MS is going to have to come up with
some way for VB to be "more accessible, the way it was under VB6" if those
apps are going to be migrated. It will be interesting to see how that plays
out.

You might consider taking a stand and calling it quirky. If you think it
is quirky and can explain why I don't see the problem if you were instead
to call people who use the language "dumb" I'd wonder why you think
people develop in it then. Newsgroups weren't invented so people could
argue like children in a playground but rather to supply a forum for
discussion.

I don't see the point of "discussing" whether the feature of a language is
quirky or not. Quirkiness is an opinion. A feature is there or it isn't,
use it or don't. Arguing over whether to use UCASE or String.ToUpper()
isn't really all that interesting to me. If I think my choice is right, and
someone else thinks *their* choice is right, I can live with that, as long
as they don't work for me. Then *my* choice becomes right. ;-)

I'm sure it was a business decision what else could it be?

It's always about money, isn't it?

What hammer? I've made the same suggestion to others on the off-chance
they find themselves supporting other .Net languages in the future. This
isn't my first language and it isn't the first time I've had to migrate
code.

And it won't be the last. ;-)

I try to reduce language-induced dependencies and caution others against
it as well. Few people understand the problem until the day arrives to
make the conversion and at that time they look for somebody to blame.

Or they just fix it and move on.

Do people believe I didn't choose to use VB.Net? I've never told anybody
not to use it I've only suggested that poor code is poor code regardless
of the language (just as you have.)

Give or take any opinions about using the "quirky" features of the
language.
:-D

That's the politician in you speaking.

Mostly I find if someone is really adamant about something, it is a waste
of time to "discuss" it with them. It's something akin to trying to
convince AaronKempf that moving to VB.Net is a good thing. Isn't there some
kind of saying about teaching a pig to dance and how much it irritates the
pig?

I won't give the practioner of voodoo or a "psychic" the piece of mind to
practice deceit without challenge. It isn't condescending to point out
"facts" and if a guy says he can bend spoons with his mind I'm not
dissing him by stating "no he can't."

Bending spoons is hardly on the same order of magnitude of picking your
programming language. Everybody *knows* programming is more important than
spoons, unless you're trying to eat your morning cereal. Only works with a
fork if you're eating Cheerios or Mini-Wheats (you can stab them, but if
you are overzealous, you'll have to change your shirt before you go to
work).

You carried on a conversation and didn't resort to name calling so I'd
say yes.

Well, that's a relief.

Have fun.
Robin S.

 

[RobinS]

Derisive? Do you really think so? Why?

Unlike some in this newsgroup, I don't feel a need to go back through all
of your postings and produce examples. There is enough of that feeling to
your posts that when I see your name, I think to myself, "This should be
interesting." Mind you, that doesn't make it true or not true, just my
perception. I'll try to pay better attention. Maybe I am misconstruing your
intent.

The difference between what you can do in C# and VB.NET is truly very
small, and that is not at all the base for my opinion of the language.


You are right that we always face the risk to judge people by the
language they use, but I try to make the distinction between the language
and the people that uses the language.

I know at least that I place far more value in how a person uses a
language than in what language the person uses.

I agree with that.

Do you really think that I am judgmental and derisive? Have you read any
of the posts I have written in the group, or are you just grounding that
on the few lines that I have written in this thread?

I read all of your posts. I have read all of the posts in many of the
dotnet newsgroups every day for the past six months, except aspnet.
Apparently I have too much time on my hands.

I rarely get into discussion about languages. In this case I answered to
a direct question about the language, and I thought that my opinion would
be helpful coming from someone who isn't part of the religion.

I didn't even mention C# in my first answer. It was only my opinion of
VB.NET and not compared to any other specific language at all.

So, speaking in examples and not quoting anybody directly, would you sah
that saying, "I think VB.Net is stupid" is not as bad as saying "I think VB
is stupider than C#"?

I'm very entertained by the whole discussion. I try not to take it too
seriously. I happen to think there are a lot of brilliant people posting in
the newsgroups, a lot of different personalities, and I enjoy reading the
posts immensely. I may be occasionally annoyed or amused, but have only
truly been offended by one person (and I'm sure everybody knows who that
is).

So keep one throwing those opinions and advice and wisdom out there, and
I'll keep reading them.

Robin S.

 

[RobinS]

Robin... how about both? Isn't it possible to like (and favor) the IDE,
background compiling, etc. of VB.Net as a Java developer? Isn't it
possible (or shouldn't it be) to like C# but wonder what the advantage to
a case-sensitive language really is?

Well, the IDE helps you make the language, but it's not the language
itself. And we all know how wonderful Visual Studio is. (pause) Compared to
a text editor. (pause) Usually, anyway. ;-)

Those thoughts do not imply derisiveness, which implies condescension and
arrogance that one's choices are the only right choices. It's free to like
the VS IDE and wish there was one for Java (there may be, I don't know), or
to wonder why people want to forever be reading thousands of lines of code
and trying to remember that grid isn't the same as Grid. That's not the
same thing as saying, "It's stupid that C# is case-sensitive and VB is
better because it's not."

Maybe you're right and I'm too much a politician. :-D

Exactly. Nobody with brains has suggested that all VB programs are
poorly written or that all C# are well-written.

That's technically true, although every time the VB/C# question comes up,
someone invariably posts something to the effect of "VB makes it possible
for you to code in a sloppy manner". As if you couldn't do that in any
other language.

Have fun.
Robin S.

 

[CodeMonkey]

Yes. That's how it works in C# too. Only as it's not line based, it will
also do the check if you pause for a second while typing a line.


In Visual Stuido 2005 it is.


I see a move coming up...

I would not say that C# does what VB.Net does in this regard. It does
*not* do the same background compilation. In fact, I would say it's very
minimal in comparison.

 

[CodeMonkey]

If I were to guess I'd say VB.Net is making inroads into the corporation
precisely because it isn't VB6.

I don't know if I would exactly say it's making an inroad just because
it's not VB6. VB6 was used a lot in corporations, but maybe not for what
it is being used for now. From what I have seen in the larger
corporations, VB6 was used for more smaller interdepartmental
applications. I'm now seeing more company wide applications being
developed in VB.Net.

 

[msnews]

Herfried you seem like a reasonable guy. Why do you suppose every
conversation about VB (and by extension VB.Net) turns into this sort of
thread?

If the VB developer is onto the greatest thing since sliced bread it seem
that the Java, C#, C++, et. al. crowds should be the one worrying about
the survival of the language they use or is that not logical? If
businesses are making the wrong language choice can I ask why some of you
don't make the effort to market what you know to be a superior solution?


They're looking for business solutions not language superiority arguments
don't you think?

Finally, an objective peek into what should be the real issue in the
discussion...

 

[msnews]

To me, you come across derisive of VB and sure that there is nothing that
can be done as well in VB as it is in C#. You may not *think* that means
you don't think less of VB programmers, but there is an implicit judgment
in there.

I hang out in the C# group, and am not judgmental or derisive about C#.
And yes, I could be if I wanted to, but I think it's disrespectful of
other peoples' choices.

To me, it's like standing in a place of worship and vocally deriding the
religion therein. Judging by how strongly some people feel about their
language of choice, I don't think that's far off the mark. ;-)

As we all know, we can debate the pluses and minuses of VB and C# all day
long and never reach a consensus. I program in both, but I prefer VB
because it is clearer *to* *me*. There are things I prefer about C# as
well.

What is important is that people write effective, impactful, logical,
understandable code in whatever language they choose, and

Ahh, a peek of light through the trees provides a clue to the real issue...