IBM's PC business up for sale

[George Macdonald]

It's (at least) a day *after* the thing starts complaning. It's more like
a week between required fixes.

Ah OK, I'll think on it.

I've seen some that are physically not compatable. The TP has a wart
sticking out the back that interferes with the back of the dock and
even a replicator. ...wonderful design!

Forward compatible is always difficult.

I don't need a drive in the Dock (though I would like a CD-R/W) but I *do*
need the PCI slot.

Might as well shoot for the DVD +/- R/RW - no?

Not everyting is darkness.

From what I gather one of the probs of mfr in Mexico is electricity sags -
if not darkness, some err, brownness? All I've heard is that companies in
Mexico fall down at the RFQ stage - they don't seem to understand what the
buyer expects as a response.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[cquirke (MVP Win9x)]

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:11:13 -0500, Tony Hill

Any time I still need to use a floppy disk these days I always make
sure to have AT LEAST two copies of the same disk because the chance
of one failing is so high. That's something I almost never have to
worry about with CDRs (sure, they do die, but at only a very tiny
fraction of how often floppies die).

Yep - I also use diskettes in pairs, and ideally, matching pairs at
that (so you can switch on an ARF prompt). Most of the dead CDRs I
see, die because the paint has been scratched off

Diskettes still work best for some field work here, such as av
scanning - I can update daily on the same 6 (2 x 3) diskettes for a
month or few, and I don't have to fret about no-CD or old-CD drives
that can't read multisession CDRs, or those that can't boot off a USB
flash stick. Then again, if you don't see as much old hardware as I
have to, you can make the jump sooner!

Looking at the desk right now, there are 2 new PC builds, 2 ATX
generation PCs, one pre-ATX with 4-speed CD, and a no-CD PS/1.

Fortunately I'm usually spared the IBM PS/1s, but pre-ATX systems are
still common, as are duff or can't-read-CDR optical drives.

--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -

Tech Support: The guys who follow the
'Parade of New Products' with a shovel.

 

[Tony Hill]

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:11:13 -0500, Tony Hill


Yep - I also use diskettes in pairs, and ideally, matching pairs at
that (so you can switch on an ARF prompt). Most of the dead CDRs I
see, die because the paint has been scratched off

Diskettes still work best for some field work here, such as av
scanning - I can update daily on the same 6 (2 x 3) diskettes for a
month or few, and I don't have to fret about no-CD or old-CD drives
that can't read multisession CDRs, or those that can't boot off a USB
flash stick. Then again, if you don't see as much old hardware as I
have to, you can make the jump sooner!

Fortunately I only rarely have to deal with PCs that are outside of
their original warranty (if they are I most just refer them over to
people like you :> ), so usually no more than 3 years old. Mind you,
the PC that I usually have at work is an old PII 400MHz that's pushing
6 years old!

Looking at the desk right now, there are 2 new PC builds, 2 ATX
generation PCs, one pre-ATX with 4-speed CD, and a no-CD PS/1.

Fortunately I'm usually spared the IBM PS/1s, but pre-ATX systems are
still common, as are duff or can't-read-CDR optical drives.

Hmm.. one ATX system with a floppy and no CD (though I don't think the
floppy is plugged in and it definitely does not work properly, it's
just there for looks :> ), as well as rear USB ports that should boot,
though I haven't tested them. Of course that one is just a
router/firewall and it basically never gets rebooted (just for kernel
updates about once a year). It will also soon be replaced by a
wireless router when I have money after xmas.

Second system is a small form factor box (Antec Aria case... very
snazzy) with a micro-ATX board, CD-RW and bootable 8-in-1 flash reader
as well as bootable front-USB ports, but no floppy. Then my main
desktop has a bootable CD-RW, bootable front USB, a non-bootable DVD
and a floppy (which may or may not work).

So I've got one out of three that can boot from a floppy, one that can
boot from memory cards (SD, Compact Flash, etc.) two that can boot
from either CDs or USB keys and one that if it goes down I have to rip
it apart and grab something from my spare parts bin to get it booting
again :>

 

[keith]

I throw my $0.02 (CDN dollars) into the fry and say that I'm rather
happy with my cordless mouse. Optical is a *MUST* IMO. At work we've
got absolute crap equipment from about 50 years ago (corded ball mice,
most of which don't even have scroll wheels), and it's definitely a
pain in the ass.

I've fried all my corded mice. ;-)

I didn't think too much about cordless until I got one, and in fact I
only got a cordless because my corded mouse died on me just a couple
months ago. I was looking around at mice and found a cordless
Logitech Click Plus! was only a few dollars more than a similar corded
mouse so I figured "what the heck, I'll give it a shot".

Sorta the way I got hooked. I finally decided that I didn't like buying
batteries faster than I did when my son was a tyke, so... He bought me
the MX-700 for Father's day. ;-)

After trying it I don't think I would ever go back to a corded mouse.
I'm still a bit worried about the (non-rechargeable) batteries. Haven't
had to replace them yet, but I've only had the mouse for ~2 months.

You will! I simply got PO'd buying them and went for the MX-700. What
really frosted me was having to buy batteries for work. They bought us
stuff to alleviate RSI, but went cheap on the recurring costs. ...don't
think that hasn't come up on opinion surveys!

Still, I should probably grab a spare set of batteries sometime, just in
case.

I buy batteries by the dozens. I understand Home Despot has Duracell AA
30-packs for about $10. Next time I'm over there (and have been about 75%
of the days for the past month) I'll grab a pack.

 

[keith]

Ah OK, I'll think on it.

Oh yee of little faith...

Forward compatible is always difficult.

Backwards compatability only takes some care though.

Might as well shoot for the DVD +/- R/RW - no?

Come on! Do you think I work for someone with real *money* to spend?
Sheesh, I'm just asking for what Santa *might* bring. ...not the red
Ferrari! ;-)

From what I gather one of the probs of mfr in Mexico is electricity sags -
if not darkness, some err, brownness? All I've heard is that companies in
Mexico fall down at the RFQ stage - they don't seem to understand what the
buyer expects as a response.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. I remeber when
Japan was threatening our very existence by buying Rockefeller Center in
NYC (the home of NBC, BTW). ...from the Dutch, no less. Before that it
was the "Arabs" buying the country up. Funny, neither ever came close to
being #2.

 

[The little lost angel]

I buy batteries by the dozens. I understand Home Despot has Duracell AA
30-packs for about $10. Next time I'm over there (and have been about 75%
of the days for the past month) I'll grab a pack.

They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada?? For mine I
just pop a pair into the mouse, a pair in the charger and swap as
necessary. Been doing that for more than a year already on the same
four batteries. Definitely cheaper than buying non-rechargeables again
and again.
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Carlo Razzeto]

They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada?? For mine I
just pop a pair into the mouse, a pair in the charger and swap as
necessary. Been doing that for more than a year already on the same
four batteries. Definitely cheaper than buying non-rechargeables again
and again.
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me

Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

They sell all kinds of recharagble batteries here in the US... I should
know, I worked at Radio Shack for 6 months... It's just that most people are
turned off by the up front cost that goes along with them. You can easily
spend $20 for 6 batteries (not sure how accurate that figure actually is
anymore, but it's ball park). Most people have trouble thinking about the
long term savings.

Carlo

 

[keith]

They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada??

Sure. I've had rechargable batteries for about 40 years ('68, at least).
They really aren't good for many applications, particularly those with
high capacity or low current demands. Rechargables don't have the
capacity of primary cells and have a very high self-discharge rate,
limiting their usefulness in these applications. Add to that the initial
expense and the need to "baby" them somewhat, and they really aren't good
for many applications. I'd *never* use them for smoke alarms or
flashlights (torches, for you right-pondians), for instance. Rechargables
work for optical mice because of the relatively high current draw of the
LED/LASER immumination, but relative ease of recharging. They're not so
good for mice with balls, because the high self-discharge approaches the
charge life. Likewise, they're terrible for flashlights and other
emergency equipment. Primary cells are far better for many such
applications.

For mine I just pop a pair into the mouse, a pair in the charger and swap as
necessary. Been doing that for more than a year already on the same
four batteries. Definitely cheaper than buying non-rechargeables again
and again.

That may or may not be true. Self-discharge is a PITA. If one has to
maintain a standby pair... Keeping NiCd's and particularly NiMH's on
constant charge is a *very* bad idea. They're great for medium - high
current draws where recharging is acceptable, but they don't work well in
low current applications or where high-capacity is needed. Alkaline
batteries are far better in these applications.

 

[keith]

They sell all kinds of recharagble batteries here in the US... I should
know, I worked at Radio Shack for 6 months... It's just that most people are
turned off by the up front cost that goes along with them. You can easily
spend $20 for 6 batteries (not sure how accurate that figure actually is
anymore, but it's ball park). Most people have trouble thinking about the
long term savings.

They may be that expensive drom Radio Shaft, but likeeveryting
RadioShaft sells there are better places to buy ($20 for a 9V 600ma
wall wart?)

The fact is that rechargables aren't the panacea you're pretending that
they are.

 

[cquirke (MVP Win9x)]

...rechargables aren't the panacea you're pretending that they are.

They don't last forever, that's fer sure (esp. if nicked).

I've a bright idea: Why not use a dedicated socket on the PC that
offloads demand on USB, and then run a wire from the mouse to that
socket so it can draw power from the PC?

---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

On the 'net, *everyone* can hear you scream

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada??

They most certainly do, and I make heavy use of the newer
NiMH 1800-2000 mAh AA cells. They work great in high-drain
devices like dig.cameras, Gameboys and portable CD players.

Rechargeables work poorly in low-drain devices like clocks
and mice. They have a self-discharge coefficient around 1%
per day. You'll need to swap every month or two. Clock
batteries last 1+ year. AFAIK, mice batteries ~6 months.

-- Robert

 

[keith]

They don't last forever, that's fer sure (esp. if nicked).

I've a bright idea: Why not use a dedicated socket on the PC that
offloads demand on USB, and then run a wire from the mouse to that
socket so it can draw power from the PC?

Dedicated socket? Isn't that whay we *have* USB? Why not a USB-powered
optical-cordless mouse? USB should be able to deliver enough power to
charge small batteries. ...not that I want anything to do with USB mice
(though likely won't have any choice, sooner than later)

 

[The little lost angel]

They most certainly do, and I make heavy use of the newer
NiMH 1800-2000 mAh AA cells. They work great in high-drain
devices like dig.cameras, Gameboys and portable CD players.

Rechargeables work poorly in low-drain devices like clocks
and mice. They have a self-discharge coefficient around 1%
per day. You'll need to swap every month or two. Clock
batteries last 1+ year. AFAIK, mice batteries ~6 months.

Ok, I in my usual lost and slow village idiot mode again cos I'm
definitely missing a link somewhere.

Several of you have pointed out that rechargeables work poorly for
mice. But Keith also said that it takes about a week before he needs
to change a fresh set of batteries. He also said it's $10 for a pack
of 30, at 2 per week, that's 15 weeks worth of battery life. Over a
year, that's about $30~40 of batteries + about 100 bullets of chemical
waste.

Somebody (Carlo? the post didn't show up on my crappy new ISP server)
mentioned that 6 rechargeable is about $20.

That tallies with my experience here. I got my 4 + the charger for at
most $25 more than a year ago. But it should be almost 2 yrs since. I
got mine when they were pretty new (and expensive) and ZDNet had a
review of mine dated Nov 02. I don't take any special care of the
batteries, I pop them into the charger and leave them there forever
until I need to swap.

Even if I misread Keith and it's a month a pair of batteries, that's
still $8 a year and $16 for two years. Pretty much the same
economically as my $25 charger + 4 batts, which double up as swaps for
the two in my digicam as well.

So what makes them so bad for mices especially when taking into
consideration that non-rechargeables would had added anything from 48
to 200 bullets of chemical waste at the same time? *confused*


--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Keith R. Williams]

Ok, I in my usual lost and slow village idiot mode again cos I'm
definitely missing a link somewhere.

Apparently. ;-)

Several of you have pointed out that rechargeables work poorly for
mice. But Keith also said that it takes about a week before he needs
to change a fresh set of batteries. He also said it's $10 for a pack
of 30, at 2 per week, that's 15 weeks worth of battery life. Over a
year, that's about $30~40 of batteries + about 100 bullets of chemical
waste.

No, my M$ cordless mouse would last about three-six months on two AAA
alkaline batteries. I threw those away and went to the Logitec MX-700
Optical mice that are *rechargeable* (optical mice take a lot more
power) and it lasts at least a week without recharging and at least a
day after complaining about low charge.

I use all kinds of batteries, depending on the application:

Alkalines are very good primary cells with a good shelf-life and high
capacity. Thus they're good for both low current and high current
applications. These are very good for use in flashlights and such.

NiCds aren't as high capacity as alkalines and have a moderately high
self discharge (~10%/month), so aren't as good at low or high currents
or where standby operation is needed. However they're secondary cells
so are cheaper, in the long run, for applications where they're cycled.
Leaving them on a "float" charge is a bad idea, they like to be cycled
or let self-discharge. Rechargable NiCd flashlights, dustbusters, and
the like are simply stupid.

NMH cells are similar to NiCds with a higher capacity, but a very poor
self-discharge. 1% discharge per day isn't unusual. NMH cells
apparently don't last as long (number of cycles) as NiCds. They are
far more environmentally friendly though. Indeed they can be thrown
into the land-fill. Cadmium is very toxic and must be recycled.

SLACs (Sealed Lead Acid Cells) are very high capacity (for secondary
cells) have good self-discharge properties, *love* to be float
charged, and last a long time. These are very good for emergency
lighting and such. They *hate* to be completely discharged so they
aren't seen in consumer gadgets often.

LiION cells are very high capacity, but can't be used in a haphazard
fashion like the others. A run-away charger will cause an explosion
and fire. Not good.

Somebody (Carlo? the post didn't show up on my crappy new ISP server)
mentioned that 6 rechargeable is about $20.

On a good day they (AA) can be had for less than $2 each. I bought a
set of four D 4400mAH batteries for my radio for something around $30
(I also keep a set of alkalines aside for emergencies).

That tallies with my experience here. I got my 4 + the charger for at
most $25 more than a year ago. But it should be almost 2 yrs since. I
got mine when they were pretty new (and expensive) and ZDNet had a
review of mine dated Nov 02.

New? ...in '02? My brother bought me several sets of AA, C's, and D's
in '66 (may have been as late as '68) when he was working for GE.

I don't take any special care of the
batteries, I pop them into the charger and leave them there forever
until I need to swap.

A constant charge on NiCds isn't a good thing. If the charge is less
than C/20 (charge times > 20 hours), this isn't terrible, but it isn't
recommended.

Even if I misread Keith and it's a month a pair of batteries, that's
still $8 a year and $16 for two years. Pretty much the same
economically as my $25 charger + 4 batts, which double up as swaps for
the two in my digicam as well.

Yes, you misread. The alkalines don't go in the mice, they go in the
flashlights, toothbrushes, smoke detectors (9V though), and such
things.

So what makes them so bad for mices especially when taking into
consideration that non-rechargeables would had added anything from 48
to 200 bullets of chemical waste at the same time? *confused*

I used alkalines for the M$ mice because they lasted 3-6 months, which
puts them on the outer edge of where rechargeables make sense. My
Logitech MX-700 mice are rechargeable (and use standard AA NiCd
batteries).

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/US/EN,CRID=
2135,CONTENTID=4999

Also note that a hundred modern (mercury free) alkalines in the dump is
likely better than one NiCd. Mmake sure you *recycle* those NiCds!

 

[cquirke (MVP Win9x)]

Dedicated socket? Isn't that whay we *have* USB? Why not a USB-powered
optical-cordless mouse? USB should be able to deliver enough power to
charge small batteries. ...not that I want anything to do with USB mice
(though likely won't have any choice, sooner than later)

I was being obnoxiously retro, and thinking PS/2 rather than USB. If
you have a PS/2 socket, then why not put the mouse there, and free up
the USB load? May avoid some "can't USB from this OS" problems too.

USB can charge batteries and power lamps, but when you have "too many"
USB gadgets attached, it's usually a power draw thing. Knowing that
battery chargers are made to budget, and how batteries can pull juice,
we may see adverse effects on other USB devices at times.

OTOH, PS/2 is a drag if you forget to plug in the mouse before power
up (strangely, PS/2 keyboards don't seem to mind)

---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

On the 'net, *everyone* can hear you scream

 

[keith]

I was being obnoxiously retro, and thinking PS/2 rather than USB. If
you have a PS/2 socket, then why not put the mouse there, and free up
the USB load? May avoid some "can't USB from this OS" problems too.

I wuz trying to figure out your game, but "obnoxious" wouldn't be a word
I would have used...

If I have a PS2 socket, I'm certainly going to use it. My bitch is that
they're taking it away for no good reason. I don't see a USB mouse as
having any advantage over a PS/2 mouse. ...even though many boards have
*six* USB ports.

USB can charge batteries and power lamps, but when you have "too many"
USB gadgets attached, it's usually a power draw thing. Knowing that
battery chargers are made to budget, and how batteries can pull juice,
we may see adverse effects on other USB devices at times.

Sure, but you simply don't have enuff USB ports! ;-)

OTOH, PS/2 is a drag if you forget to plug in the mouse before power up
(strangely, PS/2 keyboards don't seem to mind)

THe keyboard is assumed. The system will look elsewhere for the pointing
device and forget the PS/2 port after it gives up. My bet is that USB
keyboards will be the next "invention" to break the PC.

 

[Bill Davidsen]

I've fried all my corded mice. ;-)




Sorta the way I got hooked. I finally decided that I didn't like buying
batteries faster than I did when my son was a tyke, so... He bought me
the MX-700 for Father's day. ;-)




You will! I simply got PO'd buying them and went for the MX-700. What
really frosted me was having to buy batteries for work. They bought us
stuff to alleviate RSI, but went cheap on the recurring costs. ...don't
think that hasn't come up on opinion surveys!




I buy batteries by the dozens. I understand Home Despot has Duracell AA
30-packs for about $10. Next time I'm over there (and have been about 75%
of the days for the past month) I'll grab a pack.

BJ's has 50 packs for ~$12, occasional sales.

 

[Bill Davidsen]

I use all kinds of batteries, depending on the application:

Alkalines are very good primary cells with a good shelf-life and high
capacity. Thus they're good for both low current and high current
applications. These are very good for use in flashlights and such.

NiCds aren't as high capacity as alkalines and have a moderately high
self discharge (~10%/month), so aren't as good at low or high currents
or where standby operation is needed. However they're secondary cells
so are cheaper, in the long run, for applications where they're cycled.
Leaving them on a "float" charge is a bad idea, they like to be cycled
or let self-discharge. Rechargable NiCd flashlights, dustbusters, and
the like are simply stupid.

NMH cells are similar to NiCds with a higher capacity, but a very poor
self-discharge. 1% discharge per day isn't unusual. NMH cells
apparently don't last as long (number of cycles) as NiCds. They are
far more environmentally friendly though. Indeed they can be thrown
into the land-fill. Cadmium is very toxic and must be recycled.

SLACs (Sealed Lead Acid Cells) are very high capacity (for secondary
cells) have good self-discharge properties, *love* to be float
charged, and last a long time. These are very good for emergency
lighting and such. They *hate* to be completely discharged so they
aren't seen in consumer gadgets often.

LiION cells are very high capacity, but can't be used in a haphazard
fashion like the others. A run-away charger will cause an explosion
and fire. Not good.

I hate when that happens...

On a good day they (AA) can be had for less than $2 each. I bought a
set of four D 4400mAH batteries for my radio for something around $30
(I also keep a set of alkalines aside for emergencies).




New? ...in '02? My brother bought me several sets of AA, C's, and D's
in '66 (may have been as late as '68) when he was working for GE.




A constant charge on NiCds isn't a good thing. If the charge is less
than C/20 (charge times > 20 hours), this isn't terrible, but it isn't
recommended.




Yes, you misread. The alkalines don't go in the mice, they go in the
flashlights, toothbrushes, smoke detectors (9V though), and such
things.




I used alkalines for the M$ mice because they lasted 3-6 months, which
puts them on the outer edge of where rechargeables make sense. My
Logitech MX-700 mice are rechargeable (and use standard AA NiCd
batteries).

As noted, around here you can get 50 AA for about $10-12, and several
stores have recycle tubs. Where I work I also have a tub, and I dump the
family batteries into it occasionally. I think you hit the point when
you noted "outer edge" of the curve, for most people it makes little
overall.

That said, I still use corded mice, I lose the cordless ones all the
time, the IR connected ones don't work in the positions I want to, etc,
etc. I don't knock them, I just don't use them, not to mention needing
special drivers for them in many cases.

 

[Rob Stow]

I hate when that happens...



As noted, around here you can get 50 AA for about $10-12, and several
stores have recycle tubs. Where I work I also have a tub, and I dump the
family batteries into it occasionally. I think you hit the point when
you noted "outer edge" of the curve, for most people it makes little
overall.

That said, I still use corded mice, I lose the cordless ones all the
time, the IR connected ones don't work in the positions I want to, etc,
etc. I don't knock them, I just don't use them, not to mention needing
special drivers for them in many cases.

Maybe someone needs to make a mouse like those flashlights and
radios that have no battery and no power cord: just squeeze
a lever or crank a little handle for a minute and it works
for half an hour. :-D

 

[Tony Hill]

Ok, I in my usual lost and slow village idiot mode again cos I'm
definitely missing a link somewhere.

Several of you have pointed out that rechargeables work poorly for
mice. But Keith also said that it takes about a week before he needs
to change a fresh set of batteries. He also said it's $10 for a pack
of 30, at 2 per week, that's 15 weeks worth of battery life. Over a
year, that's about $30~40 of batteries + about 100 bullets of chemical
waste.

I think what he was saying is that his mouse lasts for another week
AFTER it starts giving a low-battery warning.

I can't say for certain just how long the batteries last since I've
only had a cordless mouse for ~2 months, but I have yet to replace the
batteries on it and the little battery monitor still says "battery
level good" (whatever that means).

So really these batteries last 2-6 months before having to be
replaced, or more simply, that $10 pack lasts for anywhere from 2.5 to
7.5 years.

Somebody (Carlo? the post didn't show up on my crappy new ISP server)
mentioned that 6 rechargeable is about $20.

In the long run this may turn out to be more economical, especially if
the batteries do only end up lasting 2 months (ie if mouse is just
about to go dead!). On the other hand, if the batteries will last 6
months, it might not be worthwhile, particularly for someone like me
who is rather likely to lose something like a small little
rechargeable battery! :>


One interesting thing I found with my cordless mouse is that it goes
into some sort of low-power mode when not in use. I can tell because
the first time I move the mouse after a long pause (5+ minutes?) there
is a noticeable lag before the cursor moves. It's only about half a
second while the mouse wakes up, and after that it responds exactly
like a wired mouse. Point being here is that the length of time that
alkaline batteries last is going to rather proportional to how often
you use the computer rather than a specific time-frame.