IBM's PC business up for sale

[AD.]

I still don't get this, there are so many pressure-stick fans out there?
I've had two laptops with pressure-sticks (a Toshiba Satellite and the
IBM, and I still have them, BTW); and two with touchpads (a Compaq and a
Dell). I still much prefer the touchpads over the pressure-sticks anyday.

For the last year or two, Thinkpads have generally had both (well the R
series at least - we can't afford/justify the T series ones sigh). I must
admit to using the Trackpoint far more often than the Trackpad though.

But I have noticed that the R5x Thinkpads are way flimsier and seem
crappier than the R3x and R4x ones were.

Cheers
Anton

 

[George Macdonald]

I still don't get this, there are so many pressure-stick fans out there?
I've had two laptops with pressure-sticks (a Toshiba Satellite and the
IBM, and I still have them, BTW); and two with touchpads (a Compaq and a
Dell). I still much prefer the touchpads over the pressure-sticks anyday.

I would guess that will the pressure-sticks disappearing that I'm not
alone in my preference. The touchpads are much easier to learn than the
pressure-sticks, and are usually much quicker to move around. Also the
touchpads are much closer to actual mouse-like positioning than
touchpads, whenever the manufacturer is smart enough to place the
buttoms above the pad rather than below.

Since we're having a "vote", I much prefer the pressure stick if I can't
have a mouse. Touchpads seem to be in the same niche as mini-trackballs to
me: looks like a great idea but in practice, falls short.

In our office I've had to show people how to disable the touchpad because I
got complaints about "keyboard problems" which were actually due to
accidental touchpad err, touches. Touchpads are also the source of the
drifting cursor problems on many notebooks, whether due to poor
design/construction or accidental damage... like getting squashed/bent in
the overhead of a 'plane.

On the OP, I wonder how much Lenovo would tamper with the Thinkpad
design... since it's been a very successful line over the years. The
machines are all made in China now AFAICT, so it's possible that they might
keep everything as is for a few years before trying to "improve" it. From
what I've been able to gather Lenovo has a good reputation as a mfr in
China and has very high quality standards. If they have a clue, they'll
spin off a company known as something like Thinkpad or Thinksys Corp.
(assuming they get a license to the name as part of the deal) and keep the
quality.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[keith]

Since we're having a "vote", I much prefer the pressure stick if I can't
have a mouse. Touchpads seem to be in the same niche as mini-trackballs to
me: looks like a great idea but in practice, falls short.

I agree 100%. Track-sticks are a poor excuse for a rodent, but they're
better than any alternative. I have a long history of tendonitis in my
hands (fortunately not too muchh problems for a few years) and as such I'm
very sensitive to wrist motions. I know people who simply love
tracck-balls, but I can't get past trying them in the store. Goood mice
are a must (my current fav is the Logitech 700 optical/rechargable. I
reached im my hip and bought one for work I like it so much.

OTOH, I had some "desktop" keyboards (buckling spring, of course I used
in tight locations (lab benches) and the track-sticks sucked. The
trackball mounted to the upper right corner worked far better in that
application. Perhaps the difference was that it was a "tool" rather than
a "workstation", though it was the same sort of applications the usage was
different.

In our office I've had to show people how to disable the touchpad
because I got complaints about "keyboard problems" which were actually
due to accidental touchpad err, touches. Touchpads are also the source
of the drifting cursor problems on many notebooks, whether due to poor
design/construction or accidental damage... like getting squashed/bent
in the overhead of a 'plane.

My antique (and crappy) 600EL had a drifting cursor problem. The A21p is
perfect. Though they're replacing 4YO ThinkPads, I'm not giving this one
up.

On the OP, I wonder how much Lenovo would tamper with the Thinkpad
design... since it's been a very successful line over the years. The
machines are all made in China now AFAICT, so it's possible that they
might keep everything as is for a few years before trying to "improve"
it. From what I've been able to gather Lenovo has a good reputation as
a mfr in China and has very high quality standards. If they have a
clue, they'll spin off a company known as something like Thinkpad or
Thinksys Corp. (assuming they get a license to the name as part of the
deal) and keep the quality.

FWIG, this isn't in the cards. The reports were apparently a tad
premature. *YOY* would IBM give up their name? Why would anyone buy the
line without it?

 

[Gary L.]

I don't know, maybe an Acer Ferrari notebook? They are supposed to
be using the special Ferrari car paint on those things' cases (yeah,
right!), so I would assume it's a metallic casing too. And it will allow
you to out-pose the Mac-crack posers.

Well, it's probably as close as I'll get to owning an Italian sports
car.

One option that I've been looking at are the Fujitsu laptops. They are
advertising that they emphasize reliability and quality. There is a
multi-page ad in the current edition of PC Mag touting this product as
a reliable business notebook (maybe they knew something?)They have
some Centrino systems (S7000 series) that seem similar in
specifications to the T series. One model that caught my eye was the
S2020 that has an AMD XP-M 2200 CPU, an ATI/ALi chip set with
integrated ATI graphics. It is quite light (under 4 lbs) and the 13"
screen will be adequate for mobile use. They advertise 6 hours of
battery life.

I did see a Fujitsu notebook at Fry's some time back and I can't say
that I liked the feel of the keyboard. Anyone have any experience with
Fujitsu notebooks in general or the S2020 in particular?
- -
Gary L.
Reply to the newsgroup only

 

[The little lost angel]

I still don't get this, there are so many pressure-stick fans out there?
I've had two laptops with pressure-sticks (a Toshiba Satellite and the
IBM, and I still have them, BTW); and two with touchpads (a Compaq and a
Dell). I still much prefer the touchpads over the pressure-sticks anyday.

Every time I shop for a new laptop, I give the touchpads a try in the
vain hope that they finally figured out a magical way to make it look
like I'm not somebody with giant fingers. They haven't succeeded.

I would guess that will the pressure-sticks disappearing that I'm not
alone in my preference. The touchpads are much easier to learn than the
pressure-sticks, and are usually much quicker to move around. Also the
touchpads are much closer to actual mouse-like positioning than
touchpads, whenever the manufacturer is smart enough to place the
buttoms above the pad rather than below.

The thing with touchpads are they are so imprecise and hard to
control. Sure they are easy to move around... they move with the
slightest touch giving hell of a problem with I type. When I first got
my T30, it used to freak me out why the stupid cursor was flying all
over the place when I typed. Until I remembered it had a touchpad
which promptly got disabled of course.

With a pressure stick, I can do pixel by pixel movements in photoshop
as well as perform almost any pointing stunt I can do with the mouse.
With the touchpad, the only stunt that's happening is how fast my
frustration rises pPpPp

Yes, the touchpad IS easier to use, most people can use it with the
barest of instructions. But as my friend suggested and I tried,
playing an hour or two of solitaire and minesweeper on it makes you
very proficient very quickly. But since you're a nice guy, Yousof,
I'll refrain from making comments about lazy bummers & idiot-proof
like Windows. ;PpPpPP

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

FWIG, this isn't in the cards. The reports were apparently
a tad premature. *YOY* would IBM give up their name?
Why would anyone buy the line without it?

Two excellent questions. I can see some fit (IBM design expertise
matched with Lenovo mfg cost advantage) but the marketing side
is scarey as always. Lexmark may be the pattern.

Perhaps the Chinese only want the skills? Does White
Plains have any qualms selling lifers down the river?

-- Robert

 

[George Macdonald]

Well, it's probably as close as I'll get to owning an Italian sports
car.

One option that I've been looking at are the Fujitsu laptops. They are
advertising that they emphasize reliability and quality. There is a
multi-page ad in the current edition of PC Mag touting this product as
a reliable business notebook (maybe they knew something?)They have
some Centrino systems (S7000 series) that seem similar in
specifications to the T series. One model that caught my eye was the
S2020 that has an AMD XP-M 2200 CPU, an ATI/ALi chip set with
integrated ATI graphics. It is quite light (under 4 lbs) and the 13"
screen will be adequate for mobile use. They advertise 6 hours of
battery life.

I did see a Fujitsu notebook at Fry's some time back and I can't say
that I liked the feel of the keyboard. Anyone have any experience with
Fujitsu notebooks in general or the S2020 in particular?

It may not matter if you never travel out of your country with it but one
thing I've noticed is that Fujitsu has completely different line-ups in
different places - e.g. in Europe they market as Fujitsu-Siemens... with
models we don't see in the U.S. Emergency repairs out of country *could*
be impossible.

I also didn't like their demarcation between Home/SOHO models which could
only be found with WinXP Home and business models with WinXP Pro; a couple
of the former I'd have liked to see with a Pro version - made no sense to
me.

At one time Toshiba used to make notebooks with cases about as well
designed as IBM Thinkpads but the ones I've seen recently just didn't cut
it for me. I've been wondering more about Asus and MSI who both make
excellent mbrds but it's difficult to lay your hands on one to check it
out.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[George Macdonald]

I agree 100%. Track-sticks are a poor excuse for a rodent, but they're
better than any alternative. I have a long history of tendonitis in my
hands (fortunately not too muchh problems for a few years) and as such I'm
very sensitive to wrist motions. I know people who simply love
tracck-balls, but I can't get past trying them in the store. Goood mice
are a must (my current fav is the Logitech 700 optical/rechargable. I
reached im my hip and bought one for work I like it so much.

Hmm, I'm resistant to cordless mice - batteries... bah! I currently have a
Logitech Click! corded and I like it.

OTOH, I had some "desktop" keyboards (buckling spring, of course I used
in tight locations (lab benches) and the track-sticks sucked. The
trackball mounted to the upper right corner worked far better in that
application. Perhaps the difference was that it was a "tool" rather than
a "workstation", though it was the same sort of applications the usage was
different.


My antique (and crappy) 600EL had a drifting cursor problem. The A21p is
perfect. Though they're replacing 4YO ThinkPads, I'm not giving this one
up.

The T42s really are very nice... once you get used to the idea of no PS/2
port and no floppy spindle. Yeah, USB is ugly but the USB floppy drives
work fine... when the need is there, which is not that often. Make a
bootable USB flash drive and the need is slim to non-existent.

FWIG, this isn't in the cards. The reports were apparently a tad
premature. *YOY* would IBM give up their name? Why would anyone buy the
line without it?

About what I'd have thought... so I'm not sure what IBM is supposedly
brewing here acording to the reports. Without the Thinkxxx name the line
is just baggage.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Gary L.]

It may not matter if you never travel out of your country with it but one
thing I've noticed is that Fujitsu has completely different line-ups in
different places - e.g. in Europe they market as Fujitsu-Siemens... with
models we don't see in the U.S. Emergency repairs out of country *could*
be impossible.

I seldom travel for business and never outside the U.S., so
international support isn't an issue. But warranty service is an
issue. I've had good luck with warranty repairs from IBM; typically
with 2 day turn-around. I have no idea what Fujitsu's repair service
is like. I also wonder about the availability of parts such as
batteries.

I also didn't like their demarcation between Home/SOHO models which could
only be found with WinXP Home and business models with WinXP Pro; a couple
of the former I'd have liked to see with a Pro version - made no sense to
me.

They seem to have quite a profileration of models for no apparent
reason. The models I looked at all offered either Home or Pro (as an
extra cost option), but I didn't look at any "desktop replacement" or
"multimedia" machines.

At one time Toshiba used to make notebooks with cases about as well
designed as IBM Thinkpads but the ones I've seen recently just didn't cut
it for me.

That was my impression as well, but that was in comparison to what I
could get in a ThinkPad.

I've been wondering more about Asus and MSI who both make
excellent mbrds but it's difficult to lay your hands on one to check it
out.

I've never seen one in person.

What I *really* want is a thin and light notebook with a simple,
sturdy plain monochrome case. No silvery-plastic multimedia buttons
and no curvy plastic case with a glow-in-the-dark product badge. No
pre-loaded AOL, no try-it-for-30-days-and-buy-it-software, no
pre-loaded MS Works and MS Money. In other words, a ThinkPad.

IBM discontinued my favorite buckling spring keyboard. And they
discontinued my favorite operating system (OS/2). Now they are going
to discontinue the notebook computer that I've relied on for years.
This is beginning to affect my brand loyalty.
- -
Gary L.
Reply to the newsgroup only

 

[George Macdonald]

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:31:59 -0500, George Macdonald


That was my impression as well, but that was in comparison to what I
could get in a ThinkPad.

Well yes, the shiny, black, flexy plastic case I saw in a Toshiba recently
shocked me compared with what they used to do a few years ago - it didn't
look like a serious business "road-warrior" machine at all.

I've never seen one in person.

What I *really* want is a thin and light notebook with a simple,
sturdy plain monochrome case. No silvery-plastic multimedia buttons
and no curvy plastic case with a glow-in-the-dark product badge. No
pre-loaded AOL, no try-it-for-30-days-and-buy-it-software, no
pre-loaded MS Works and MS Money. In other words, a ThinkPad.

I'll bet you can live without the blinking blue lights as well. What
the hell is HP thinking?

IBM discontinued my favorite buckling spring keyboard. And they
discontinued my favorite operating system (OS/2). Now they are going
to discontinue the notebook computer that I've relied on for years.
This is beginning to affect my brand loyalty.

It's difficult to sort out what the final outcome will be. Keith seems to
suggest that IBM would not easily give up the Thinkpad brand name and that
makes sense to me. Whoever makes them and under what arrangements, if the
systems are still available at the same quality level and under similar
terms, which still seems a possibility, this may all be just a storm in a
teacup.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Keith R. Williams]

Two excellent questions. I can see some fit (IBM design expertise
matched with Lenovo mfg cost advantage) but the marketing side
is scarey as always. Lexmark may be the pattern.

Lexmark was a management buyout. This one is more complicated. The
official word (email from the top dog) is that IBM gets an stake (~20%)
in Lenovo and $650M in cash. Lenovo gets the PC division, "Think"
brand, and $500M in liabilities. Someone around here said Lenovo
would use the "IBM" logo for five years, but I don't see that anywhere
in the official stuff. Apparently the two will market each other's
products.

Perhaps the Chinese only want the skills? Does White
Plains have any qualms selling lifers down the river?

C/White Plains/Armonk, and are you kidding?! In this case 10,000
employees (Something like 2500 in the US and ~4000 in China) went with
the deal.

http://www-1.ibm.com/press/PressServletForm.wss?
TemplateName=ShowPressReleaseTemplate&SelectString=t1.docunid=7450

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

Lexmark was a management buyout. This one is more complicated.

Good point.

C/White Plains/Armonk, and are you kidding?! In this case
10,000 employees (Something like 2500 in the US and ~4000
in China) went with the deal.

My deep condolences to all those sold down the river.

-- Robert

 

[Gary L.]

Lexmark was a management buyout. This one is more complicated. The
official word (email from the top dog) is that IBM gets an stake (~20%)
in Lenovo and $650M in cash. Lenovo gets the PC division, "Think"
brand, and $500M in liabilities. Someone around here said Lenovo
would use the "IBM" logo for five years, but I don't see that anywhere
in the official stuff. Apparently the two will market each other's
products.

The NY Times article states that:

"Under Lenovo's ownership, the I.B.M. personal computer business will
continue to be based in the United States and run by its current
management team. I.B.M. will take a stake of 18.9 percent in Lenovo,
which is based in Beijing but plans to have headquarters in New York."

"Besides management expertise, Lenovo would be acquiring five-year
brand-licensing rights to a computer business best known for its
I.B.M. Thinkpad notebooks, its sleek black desktops and the product
line's distinctive tricolor I.B.M. logo."

- -
Gary L.
Reply to the newsgroup only

 

[Gary L.]

I'll bet you can live without the blinking blue lights as well. What
the hell is HP thinking?

It seems that the intended market for computer systems these days is
15 year old kids who want glowing alien faces on the front of their
systems. Maybe I'm getting old, but I really don't want to buy a
system that looks like a cheesy Halloween costume.

It's difficult to sort out what the final outcome will be. Keith seems to
suggest that IBM would not easily give up the Thinkpad brand name and that
makes sense to me. Whoever makes them and under what arrangements, if the
systems are still available at the same quality level and under similar
terms, which still seems a possibility, this may all be just a storm in a
teacup.

Now that the official announcement has been make, it appears that
Lenovo may retain some link to the existing ThinkPad line, at least
for a few years. There is a possibility that the ThinkPad line could
prosper once it is liberated from IBM central command. Stranger things
have happened. So I will wait and see what grows from this seed that
was planted today.
- -
Gary L.
Reply to the newsgroup only

 

[Tony Hill]

FWIG, this isn't in the cards. The reports were apparently a tad
premature. *YOY* would IBM give up their name? Why would anyone buy the
line without it?

Well, it's official now, Lenovo has purchased IBM's PC line:

http://www-1.ibm.com/press/PressSer...sReleaseTemplate&SelectString=t1.docunid=7450


Looks like Lenovo will get not only the Thinkpad brand name, but also
the "IBM PC" brand name, at least for 5 years.

I wonder if this deal will see the old IBM desktop systems back in the
North American market? Maybe we'll get a new competitor to the
Dell/HPaq duo that are really the only choice for commercial-grade PCs
these days? It does jump Lenovo from the #9 PC seller in the world up
to the #3 spot, just behind Dell and HPaq but ahead of
Gateway/eMachines.

Anyway, I suppose it's too early to make too many guesses as to just
what will come of this all, but I just hope that the deal goes better
than the HP/Compaq merger.

 

[Keith R. Williams]

Well, it's official now, Lenovo has purchased IBM's PC line:

http://www-1.ibm.com/press/PressSer...sReleaseTemplate&SelectString=t1.docunid=7450

Old news. I posted that link four hours ago in this thread. ;-)

Looks like Lenovo will get not only the Thinkpad brand name, but also
the "IBM PC" brand name, at least for 5 years.

I wonder if this deal will see the old IBM desktop systems back in the
North American market? Maybe we'll get a new competitor to the
Dell/HPaq duo that are really the only choice for commercial-grade PCs
these days?

IBM has the ThinkCentres and IntelliStations, which are "commercial
grade" systems. Note the IntelliStation line is not part of this deal
(nor is the XServer).

It does jump Lenovo from the #9 PC seller in the world up
to the #3 spot, just behind Dell and HPaq but ahead of
Gateway/eMachines.

Yep! Lenovo took the number three slot away form, Ta-Da... IBM! ;-)

Anyway, I suppose it's too early to make too many guesses as to just
what will come of this all, but I just hope that the deal goes better
than the HP/Compaq merger.

Could it go worse? If people printed only in red ink, would HP show any
black ink. ;-)

 

[George Macdonald]

It seems that the intended market for computer systems these days is
15 year old kids who want glowing alien faces on the front of their
systems. Maybe I'm getting old, but I really don't want to buy a
system that looks like a cheesy Halloween costume.

Cheesy is still cheesy, even if you're 15, 21 or whatever. I just want
them to keep the serious user in mind when they decide to embrace tacky -
IOW keep it separate.

Now that the official announcement has been make, it appears that
Lenovo may retain some link to the existing ThinkPad line, at least
for a few years. There is a possibility that the ThinkPad line could
prosper once it is liberated from IBM central command. Stranger things
have happened. So I will wait and see what grows from this seed that
was planted today.

After the info has been filtered through the usual bunch of brain damaged
analysts and inept reporters, it's kinda difficult to fathom what the
bottom line really is. If "Thinkpad" has been transferred to Lenovo, I'm
surprised. We'll see how the deal evolves, I guess.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Gary L.]

After the info has been filtered through the usual bunch of brain damaged
analysts and inept reporters, it's kinda difficult to fathom what the
bottom line really is. If "Thinkpad" has been transferred to Lenovo, I'm
surprised. We'll see how the deal evolves, I guess.

The official press release from IBM is here:

http://www-1.ibm.com/press/PressSer...sReleaseTemplate&SelectString=t1.docunid=7450

The IBM brands including "IBM ThinkPad" have been licensed to Lenovo,
for at least an initial period of 5 years. The existing operations,
including the management in Armonk, the design facilities in Raleigh
and Japan, and the manufacturing facility in China, will continue to
operate in place as before; it's just that 80% of the ownership is
transferred to Lenovo. They also claim a "minimal" impact on
employment. Time will tell, and we'll see if they can handle more
gracefully than HP-Compaq. It could have been much worse.

Also see:

http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/announcement.html

- -
Gary L.
Reply to the newsgroup only

 

[keith]

Keith seems to
suggest that IBM would not easily give up the Thinkpad brand name and that
makes sense to me.

Actually, I was referring more specifically to the *IBM* brand, rather
than the "Think..." brand. According to the information we have now
they've licensed this for five years, which isn't a first either. GE
licnesed their name/logo to B&D (IIRC) for small appliances under sorta
the same circumstances.

 

[keith]

Good point.


My deep condolences to all those sold down the river.

THis isn't the first time, nor will it be the last. Worse things have
happened, though perhaps my view is somewhat colored becase I'm past my
sell-by date. ;-)