HP sued for deceiving ink printer users (San Jose Mercury 19.Feb.05)

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ThomasH

A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
expiration date.

So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
HP inkjet after February 2001.


However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.

If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
of income...

Thomas
 
ThomasH said:
A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
expiration date.

So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
HP inkjet after February 2001.


However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.

If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
of income...

Thomas
Click to expand...

I would think the issue is how did the represent what they were selling.

For example if they indicated that it would use all the ink in the
cartridge, then they have a problem

If they indicated that each ink cart would last X number of sheets or
square inches or would provide X ml of ink and it shut of after providing
that amount while still having some inside, then the customer's complaint is
not valid.
 
I believe most of us assume that virtually all the ink in the cartridge
is there to be used. This really bothers me because I only use my HP
printer for final prints, thereby raising the question in my mind if I
am being ripped off. I have looked at my documentation and can find no
evidence of what to expect. Nor does my printer, purchased two years
ago, give me any heads up on remaining ink.

This mess is one reason I like Canon printers with individual
transparent easily refillable cartridges. What you see is what you
get.

There's no secret that inflated ink prices are what drives HP's market
share. Nor is there any secret that were this to change HP would see
its profits and prospects head in the direction not only of its low
margin pc business (and deteriorating server one), but Dell. And guess
what. This will happen.
 
A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
expiration date.

So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
HP inkjet after February 2001.


However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.

If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
of income...
Click to expand...


I can tell you for a fact that HP is not
alone in using such technology.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
Joseph Meehan commented courteously ...
I would think the issue is how did the represent what
they were selling.

For example if they indicated that it would use all the
ink in the cartridge, then they have a problem
Click to expand...

Didn't read the article or any info on the plaintiff's
alleged complaints, but I don't know of a printer
manufacturer who promises to drain every last drop out of
a cartride.

Most start warning you as the cartridge empties,
supposedly to "help" you by preventing you from making a
bad color print. I expect that manufacturers "push the
envelope" on this, since they do make money from new
cartridges, maybe more than on printes, as Gilette found
selling razor blades and giving the razors away for free.
If they indicated that each ink cart would last X number
of sheets or square inches or would provide X ml of ink
and it shut of after providing that amount while still
having some inside, then the customer's complaint is not
valid.
Click to expand...

Again, I've not seen a manufacturer dogmatically state a
maximum number of sheets/square inches. Rather, what I
normally see is a quoted *expected* number of sheets for
text and a smaller number for graphics (where they talk
about percent coverage).

With thousands of printers on the market, I can hardly
call myself an "expert witness", but whatever HP is or is
not doing, it isn't even good business practice to shut
off the printer (perhaps in the middle of the night when a
user can't go to the store), but I suppose it's possible.

What damages is the class action suit asking for, other
than to recover actual out-of-pocket expense for unused
ink, which would be small potatoes?
 
I have a lexmark z605, which cartridges also cost an arm and a leg,and I
bought refills.It costs only 15 euro and has 2 20 ml syringes, also 4
refills.It has even gloves!It's made in Korea,BTW.
 
Ron said:
I believe most of us assume that virtually all the ink in the
cartridge is there to be used.
Click to expand...

However what is your expectation of the number of prints each cartridge
will produce? I believe, that while you may assume it will use all the ink,
what you really are looking at is the number of prints per cartridge.

For all I know it is not practical from an engineering point of view to
totally empty the cartridge. Maybe the delivery will become inconsistent or
maybe they can not measure accurately, so they provide more ink that the
cartridge is designed to deliver to assure a consistent result.

There is nothing the consumer hates more than inconsistent results. If
you get 100 prints on one cartridge and then only get 95 on the next
printing the exact same prints, you are going to be mad. I have often
visited manufacturing facilities. The quality control lines of the better
products often reject products that we would normally consider inferior like
not enough beef in the vegetable soup, but they also reject the cans with
too much beef. Beer lines reject bottles that are under-filled but they
also reject over-filled bottles.
 
Joseph said:
I would think the issue is how did the represent what they were selling.

For example if they indicated that it would use all the ink in the
cartridge, then they have a problem
Click to expand...


The basis of the complaint seems to be that they did not disclose the
fact that the cartridges would cease functioning after a specific date,
regardless of how much ink was left in them.

Bob
 
ThomasH said:
A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
expiration date.

So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
HP inkjet after February 2001.


However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.

If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
of income...

Thomas
Click to expand...
I have had 5 different HP inkjet printers, and NONE of them ever stopped
printing when the ink ran out. The ones I currently have in use warn
you that you may be running out of ink, but they do NOT stop printing,
even when the ink runs OUT. I suspect this is another of those totally
specious lawsuits based on nothing but desire to get into the pockets of
major companies who would rather pay than be tied up in court.
 
ThomasH said:
If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
of income...

Thomas
Click to expand...

If you are talking about trial lawyers, maybe. The lawyers will get paid
millions of dollars. The consumers they are supposedly protecting will get a
coupon for ten bucks off on an HP printer.
 
However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
Click to expand...

Once with an Epson printer I tried an experiment, printing as many
sheets as I could after the "low ink warning", until the photo was
obviously off-color, indicating one of the inks had indeed ran totally
dry. I got another 10 or so photos, IIRC. *But* when I put a new cart
in there was the mother of all air bubbles between the ink in the cart
and the printer head and it took maybe a dozen cleaning cycles and 30
minutes of futzing around to finally get the ink back to the head.
Last time I tried that experiment.

So I think the reason there's still some unused ink is to avoid getting
air pockets in the line. Anyone bothered by this should switch to the
CIS systems. What's important is the cost per sheet, not whether or
not there's some ink left in the tank when the warning light comes on,
I feel.
 
Strange, all the HP printers I've used keep going until the ink runs out and
any warnings of low ink can be ignored.
 
Bill said:
Once with an Epson printer I tried an experiment, printing as many
sheets as I could after the "low ink warning", until the photo was
obviously off-color, indicating one of the inks had indeed ran totally
dry. I got another 10 or so photos, IIRC. *But* when I put a new cart
in there was the mother of all air bubbles between the ink in the cart
and the printer head and it took maybe a dozen cleaning cycles and 30
minutes of futzing around to finally get the ink back to the head.
Last time I tried that experiment.
Click to expand...


Same exact experience over here. I suspect
Epson's design only allows for or expects
about 70% "efficiency" out of the small carts.

Which is infuriating when you consider the
cost per milliliter of most inks.

So I think the reason there's still some unused ink is to avoid getting
air pockets in the line. Anyone bothered by this should switch to the
CIS systems. What's important is the cost per sheet, not whether or
not there's some ink left in the tank when the warning light comes on,
I feel.
Click to expand...


Or stick with the "pro" printers that use
large and stationary carts (which almost
amounts to the same thing.) This was my
main reason for choosing the HP Designjet
as my "desktop" printer.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
The mechanism in the HP is somewhat different form the otehrs you
mention. Most permanent or semi-permanent inkjet printers leave some
ink in the cartridge when it reads empty to prevent either head damage
(in the case of the Canon, or air locks and head drying out internally
for the Epson.

However, some HP printers have a expiration date programmed into them,
so the printer simply stops when tat date is reached. It is apparently
shown on the box, and I believe HP will exchange cartridges if you have
new ones that are expired. Their claim is that their inks become
unstable in some manner after a certain date and can clog or damage the
printer in some manner.

Art
 
rafeb said:
Same exact experience over here. I suspect
Epson's design only allows for or expects
about 70% "efficiency" out of the small carts.

Which is infuriating when you consider the
cost per milliliter of most inks.
Click to expand...

Your cost anyway. I suspect the cost to HP is much much less.
 
I'm glad to see that something is being done.

For those that may have missed it being discussed here in
rec.photo.digital I kept the following for future reference of how to
reset expiration dates.

My HP932c [purchased Nov.00] is not affected but my next printer would
be.

Google is your friend:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=HP+resetter&meta=

.... try search strings like "Epson resetter" & "smart chip ink
cartridges" <no quotes> to find more.

Hap

---clip---

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:11:10 GMT, "Christopher Muto"

why? the manufacturer would probably tell you that the dates are to
ensure a good experiance with their product through the use of fresh
cartridges. i would tell you that the dates are so that they can sell
you more cartridges. i think all the majors have implemented some sort
of scheme like this... the cartridges have a chip built into them that
can be reset if it is considered 'expired' or if you wanted to remove
and refill it. search the web for "hp resetter" (or for epson, "epson
reset tool") and you will find several... a manual way of reseting the
cartridge/printer to accept the expired or previously used cartridge
is listed at the link below. there are three methods and only one may
work on your particular model, but try them all with particular
attention to the third method suggested which is the easiest,
cheapest, and simplest, but may not apply to your model printer.
it may be more economical to purchase a non-hp cartridge than the
resetter tool and ink refills for a person that does not print very
often.

http://www.inktec-uk.co.uk/57_58_reset.htm
 
ThomasH said:
A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
Click to expand...

The HP carts I use have a marked capacity on them - 42 mL. This capacity is
also marked on the packaging.

It would be interesting to know if the system flags then as empty _before_
42mL of ink has been used? If it does then that sure sounds like there is a
case to answer.

If it prints all 42mL before flagging empty then there is no case to answer.
Any ink left in the cart is free.
 
Same exact experience over here. I suspect
Epson's design only allows for or expects
about 70% "efficiency" out of the small carts.
Click to expand...

Most of the adverts for HP carts (eg @ Amazon) say things like "30mL useable
ink". Thats a very clear statement of what the cart can deliver.

As you say the issue is not how much ink is left in the cart but how much
you can get out (eg compared to the stated or advertised value). If the
packaging or advert says "30mL useable ink" but shuts off before that amount
has been used then it sounds like there is a case to answer. As long as 30mL
is useable it doesn't matter how much is left in the cart.
 
Ron said:
I have had 5 different HP inkjet printers, and NONE of them ever stopped
printing when the ink ran out.
Click to expand...

The Deskjet and Designjet series inkjet printers will stop when they are
out. In fact the Designjet 750 will refuse to print if the some of the
nozzels are clogged. It will stop in the middle of a print and tell you
to service the cartridge.
The ones I currently have in use warn
you that you may be running out of ink, but they do NOT stop printing,
even when the ink runs OUT. I suspect this is another of those totally
specious lawsuits based on nothing but desire to get into the pockets of
major companies who would rather pay than be tied up in court.
Click to expand...

This is an issue of cartridges that have time stamps in them and
printers that refuse to use them after they have expired, regardless of
ink content.

I read somewhere that HPs stand is the ink might go bad and they don't
want to risk consumers with bad prints due to expired ink.

Bob
 
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