How much silicon paste?

[Randy Howard]

Ok, i did take it out of context. The gauge is usually the
most important part, assuming there isn't some other unusal
problem.
Yes.


Whether I can hear a difference is not necessarily same as
"18 gauge wire is identical". Perhaps you meant "18 gauge
wire /sounds/ identical", which would usually be true.

Since most of this thread has mentioned being able to hear
an improvement, I thought it was implicit, rather than
needing to repeat it in every paragraph.

One thing often overlooked though, is that it is not
necessary to be able demonstrate the difference in audible
testing to any certain degree of accuracy. Why not?
Because an audio system is a sum of it's parts.

Sure it is. Why? Because if you can't hear it, you
can't hear it. This is a lot of hand-waving to attempt
to invent a scenario in which an inaudible difference
is demonstrably different. Pointless.

Since we're in computer-related newsgroups, let's use a
computing example. In user perception tests there may not
be a majority that could tell two (otherwise identical
machines) had a P4 3.0 GHz vs a P4 3.2GHz. They may not be
able to differentiate between a 50 MB/s HDD or a 48MB/s HDD
either, nor many other aspects where there is only a minor
difference. That doesn't mean the difference doesn't exist,
it is additive.

Yes, but in computing, performance improvements can add up
to time savings during a work day. You can't claim that
inaudible differences in sound quality make your audio
better. Audio is all about hearing, if you can't hear it,
then it isn't there as far as you are concerned.

So if someone has a 30W integrated desktop stereo, they may

have so many limitations to sound quality that different
cabling is not going to matter... but along with every area
of a percent or two difference, it all can add up to a
better system.

Not true. If the receiver is the problem, the finest speaker
wire on the planet (let's pretend like such a thing exists
for a moment) isn't going to make it sound better. In fact,
bad wire (if that was available) might actually cover up
some of whatever imaginary audio problems the receiver in
question might have. Now, speakers themselves are probably
something on the order of 3 or 4 magnitudes more important
than speaker wire variance, so if you want to fix something,
start there, not on esoteric unobtanium wire.

Almost anybody that isn't technically deaf can easily tell
the difference between two nonidentical tweeters. Find
*anyone* that can do that with wire, once again assuming
same gauge and length, and no made up issues like bad
connectors.

 

[kony]

Sure it is. Why? Because if you can't hear it, you
can't hear it. This is a lot of hand-waving to attempt
to invent a scenario in which an inaudible difference
is demonstrably different. Pointless.

It's not necessary for this single point to be audibly
different, only to have a measurable difference. It could
be a percent better, which many couldn't discriminate, but
take each of several improvements of only 1% each which
aren't audible, and their combined difference IS audible.

Yes, but in computing, performance improvements can add up
to time savings during a work day. You can't claim that
inaudible differences in sound quality make your audio
better. Audio is all about hearing, if you can't hear it,
then it isn't there as far as you are concerned.

I can certainly claim that each change to an audio system
may not make a drastic difference in itself, but that the
sum of the parts IS audibly different. In fact, this is the
case with every audio system. Take a $20 Walmart CD player.
Upgrade one tiny part and it may not sound much better,
upgrade a different part and it may not either, but upgrade
several parts and you'r approaching a better player's
performance. It isn't a good example since such devices
aren't easily upgraded/changed, but such is the case with
many budget-constrained devices.

So if someone has a 30W integrated desktop stereo, they may

Not true. If the receiver is the problem, the finest speaker
wire on the planet (let's pretend like such a thing exists
for a moment) isn't going to make it sound better. In fact,
bad wire (if that was available) might actually cover up
some of whatever imaginary audio problems the receiver in
question might have. Now, speakers themselves are probably
something on the order of 3 or 4 magnitudes more important
than speaker wire variance, so if you want to fix something,
start there, not on esoteric unobtanium wire.

Sure, the speakers will make more of a difference, but not
the only difference. Nobody ever suggested that speaker
wire be the first thing replaced.

 

[Rob Morley]

Let me know when you have demonstrated that you can reliably hear a difference
between them when length and gauge or held constant. For the mean time,
they sound great to a marketing guy or any of their intended victims.

But there's so much more to audiophilia than what you can hear ;^>

 

[Randy Howard]

It's not necessary for this single point to be audibly
different, only to have a measurable difference. It could
be a percent better, which many couldn't discriminate, but
take each of several improvements of only 1% each which
aren't audible, and their combined difference IS audible.

Sure it does. Consider the ideal case where every other
component in the system is the finest on the planet. The
PERFECT audio system, all items hand assembled, and each
trace tested by the finest electrical engineer on the planet.
Now, the ONLY variable is the wire. The difference between
two pieces of wire is inaudible. hence, it makes no difference.

Now, if it can't be heard on the finest system available, with
no other flaws obscuring the sound quality, then it can't
be heard anywhere else either. This strawman is getting absurd.

I can certainly claim that each change to an audio system
may not make a drastic difference in itself, but that the
sum of the parts IS audibly different.

*sigh*

If you make 8 changes, and they are audible, and you make
one more change, which is the wire, and it is inaudible,
then you do not get to give credit for the improvement to
the wire because you bundle it in with the others.

Take a $20 Walmart CD player.
Upgrade one tiny part and it may not sound much better,
upgrade a different part and it may not either, but upgrade
several parts and you'r approaching a better player's
performance.

And if you can reverse any single item on the list of changes
without it being audibly different, then that one didn't
matter to the listener. This is like thinking that by
chrome plating the bumper on your Lotus Esprit you can take
3.1s off of your lap time at Road Atlanta because you did it
in the same weekend when you changed the ECU programming,
put on new tires and shocks, and changed to a new higher
grade fuel.

Sure, the speakers will make more of a difference, but not
the only difference. Nobody ever suggested that speaker
wire be the first thing replaced.

Ok, assume it is the last thing replaced. And, further assume
that just like everyone else on the planet that has ever tried
to measure the result of this last change, you do not succeed.
Obviously, the wire doesn't matter. Some of the earlier items
may matter a great deal, but this one did not. Is the light
bulb at least glowing yet?

 

[Randy Howard]

But there's so much more to audiophilia than what you can hear ;^>

Quite true. If you can claim it, then it's good for brownie points
at the next audiophile club meeting. Evidence is only going to
confuse things.

 

[kony]

Sure it does. Consider the ideal case where every other
component in the system is the finest on the planet. The
PERFECT audio system, all items hand assembled, and each
trace tested by the finest electrical engineer on the planet.
Now, the ONLY variable is the wire. The difference between
two pieces of wire is inaudible. hence, it makes no difference.

WHY? Why only a narrow interpretation that isn't a
real-world example? Sounds like you have no arguement if
you can't claim the same for a typical system rather than
the ideal case.

It is true that only upgrading wire may not be enough to be
worthwhile, but it CAN be one of serveral things
differentiating the typical lower-grade system with a better
one. Each part contributes to the sound even if each one
alone is at or below the threshold for a clear audible
difference.

Now, if it can't be heard on the finest system available, with
no other flaws obscuring the sound quality, then it can't
be heard anywhere else either. This strawman is getting absurd.

yes it is... absurd that you need to go this far to suggest
the "finest system". Just as with the opposite, adding
quality parts to a lower-end system, taking away some from
that "finest system" will make it no longer the "finest
sysetm". Cables can be one part of that.

*sigh*

If you make 8 changes, and they are audible, and you make
one more change, which is the wire, and it is inaudible,
then you do not get to give credit for the improvement to
the wire because you bundle it in with the others.

*double sigh*

If you make 8 changes and one of those WAS the wire, then
make another non-wire change and can't hear the difference
after the non-wire change, does that mean there was no
benefit? Maybe, or maybe not. Among those 8 things changed
there clearly was SOMETHING that made a difference. It
could be only one particular thing, but usually not, usually
it's the combined effect of several.

And if you can reverse any single item on the list of changes
without it being audibly different, then that one didn't
matter to the listener.

WRONG. It matters because the combined effect matter.

I'll grant you that if someone has a budget limit or a
mental block against doing more than ONLY replacing wire,
then in that particular case they may have no benefit...
that is, not enough of a benefit to appreciate it. That
does not take away from the benefit.

This is like thinking that by
chrome plating the bumper on your Lotus Esprit you can take
3.1s off of your lap time at Road Atlanta because you did it
in the same weekend when you changed the ECU programming,
put on new tires and shocks, and changed to a new higher
grade fuel.

No, it's like taking the bumper OFF of the car and not
noticing statistically better lap times, but with several
parts removed the weight has gone down enough to make a more
significant difference.... ignoring things like weight
distribution, if the car retained same or better balance.

Ok, assume it is the last thing replaced. And, further assume
that just like everyone else on the planet that has ever tried
to measure the result of this last change, you do not succeed.
Obviously, the wire doesn't matter. Some of the earlier items
may matter a great deal, but this one did not. Is the light
bulb at least glowing yet?

I realized this all along. This was never the argument, to
isolate it to the point where one MUST NOT replace anything
else. One who is replacing parts to gain some benefit will
not necessarily replace only the wire. If you insist that
this is the only thing they can replace, I suggest you lobby
your legislature to make it law, otherwise it's not a fixed
scenario. We were talking about only replacing the wire,
BUT that does not mean it is the end of the process, as
components are sold separately for quite this reason.

So, you argue that the wire doesn't matter, but it is not a
valid argument except in a very narrow interpretation,
unless all electrical properties are also measured to have
not changed enough to effect the sound. It's quite possible
that would be the case, particularly when replacing an
adequate 16 ga. cable with a designer 16 ga., BUT again this
is quite a fixed scenario amongst many variables.

 

[recursor]

Quite true. If you can claim it, then it's good for brownie points
at the next audiophile club meeting. Evidence is only going to
confuse things.

Lol, reminds me of a cartoon I once saw, two audiophiles have been sitting
around for hours with their high end equipment hooked up just to an
oscilloscope, one of them is saying "I never get tired of looking at that
frequency response"

 

[Ed Light]

Just fyi, one wire company said that in tests they found that the different
frequencies were travelling at different speeds in wire, so that they
arrived at the speaker in a different arrangement. They found a way to
reduce this.

However, doing it wrong could actually fuzz up the signal a little.

Reviewers in magazines such as Stereophile say they can hear differences in
wire.

I think that the treble races down the outside of a solid core.

But I'm not going to debate any of the above. Just fyi.


--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Send spam to the FTC at
(e-mail address removed)
Thanks, robots.

 

[David Maynard]

Sure it does. Consider the ideal case where every other
component in the system is the finest on the planet. The
PERFECT audio system, all items hand assembled, and each
trace tested by the finest electrical engineer on the planet.
Now, the ONLY variable is the wire. The difference between
two pieces of wire is inaudible. hence, it makes no difference.

Now, if it can't be heard on the finest system available, with
no other flaws obscuring the sound quality, then it can't
be heard anywhere else either. This strawman is getting absurd.




*sigh*

If you make 8 changes, and they are audible, and you make
one more change, which is the wire, and it is inaudible,
then you do not get to give credit for the improvement to
the wire because you bundle it in with the others.

I'm not going to comment on the 'wire' but your logic here is invalid. 8
changes, each alone, in and of themselves, 'inaudible', can add up to a
combined audible one.

And if you can reverse any single item on the list of changes
without it being audibly different, then that one didn't
matter to the listener.

But that can be said for any of the '8 changes' mentioned above. Each one,
by themselves, is inaudible and it's the combined effect that's audible. So
which of the 8 is the "didn't matter" one?

With your test, every one of the 8 is a "didn't matter," but remove all 8
and you have an audible change.

This is very much like "the straw that broke the camel's back." It actually
takes all the previous straws too so remove any one of them and no broken
back: so which 'inconsequential' straw did it?

This is like thinking that by
chrome plating the bumper on your Lotus Esprit you can take
3.1s off of your lap time at Road Atlanta because you did it
in the same weekend when you changed the ECU programming,
put on new tires and shocks, and changed to a new higher
grade fuel.

No, because your example picks something that you presume really HAS no
effect; 'noticeable' or even minutely measurable with precision instruments.

A better example is you make a myriad of improvements, polish the valves,
lighten this, strengthen that, fine tune this, etc. none of which, alone,
are really all that big a deal but, when combined, make a significant
difference.

Now, taken one at a time, you can work yourself all the way back to doing
nothing because each one, alone, isn't 'significant'.

Ok, assume it is the last thing replaced. And, further assume
that just like everyone else on the planet that has ever tried
to measure the result of this last change, you do not succeed.
Obviously, the wire doesn't matter. Some of the earlier items
may matter a great deal, but this one did not. Is the light
bulb at least glowing yet?

You pick examples that preordain the conclusion you want. A more fair one
would be you make change #1 and can't definitively tell a difference. Same
with change #2. Same with change #3, etc., etc. But you do notice when
they're all done together because, combined, they add up to an effect above
the threshold of observation.

 

[T]

So you were comparing cat5 wire to "audiophile" wire? Or, do
you just have a reading disorder to go along with the hearing
one? Why on earth would anyone use CAT5 copper wire for speakers
in practice, or even for a contrived example on Usenet?

Some people use braided CAT5 to equal a similar gauge zip cord wire. Not
a single CAT5 cable, but a bundled CAT5 group of cables. I haven't done
any studies, don't ask.

What I have done is buy the best trade off between lamp cord and/or
speaker wire; size wise vs cost. The thickest for the cheapest and been
very satisfied with my surround sound setup.


There was one comment made that copper was copper and it's all the same.
On the larger picture this is true but is that lamp cord _really_ pure
copper? Of course not, it's an alloy.


TBerk

 

[Jim]

On this page they forgot to mention that you get best results during a
full moon and when you have a lucky rabbit's foot on a chain around your
left wrist. I believe those fine points are mentioned elsewhere on the
site.

You forgot to add that you must not have www.hamsterdance.com on any
screen within a three-hundred yard radius as well. Never forget the
fine details.

Jim P.