How much silicon paste?

[Ed Light]

I'll tell you what, you find a documented example of it happening, rather
than having me try to prove a negative.

It's been years since I've been reading up on this stuff.

However, I've heard differences in cables myself, as have many others.

Just because that particular zip cord sounded good doesn't mean they all
will. Radio Shack 18 ga. solid core copper wire actually got a
recommendation in Stereophile, I think it was.

Something a little different: Try 18 ga. vs 14 ga. and see if the bass is
softer on 18 ga.

I don't care to debate on and on though.
--
Ed Light

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[Randy Howard]

It's been years since I've been reading up on this stuff.

However, I've heard differences in cables myself, as have many others.

Was it a blind test, or did you just decide on your own that you
could hear it? The so-called "placebo effect". It's hard to admit
you paid too much, much easier for the brain to convince you that
there is a difference.

Just because that particular zip cord sounded good doesn't mean they all
will. Radio Shack 18 ga. solid core copper wire actually got a
recommendation in Stereophile, I think it was.

All 18ga copper wire is identical. Copper is an element, it doesn't
change physical properties just because someone wraps a beautifully
decorated piece of plastic around it instead of white.

I don't care to debate on and on though.

Of course. When you've been able to demonstrate that you can detect
a difference more than 75% of the time using an A/B/X test administered
by an unbiased professional, be sure and let us know though, it will
be earth-shattering news in the audio community and you'll be famous.

 

[kony]

Was it a blind test, or did you just decide on your own that you
could hear it? The so-called "placebo effect". It's hard to admit
you paid too much, much easier for the brain to convince you that
there is a difference.

In FACT, there are easily measured electrical and frequency
differences when the cable is longer, and/or higher gauge.
To ignore this would be to deny any benefit to digital
links. Cables DO degrade analog sound, sometimes enough to
hear it. That's not an argument for audiophile grade
cables, only one for sufficient spacing or shielding and low
enough gauge per application.

All 18ga copper wire is identical. Copper is an element, it doesn't
change physical properties just because someone wraps a beautifully
decorated piece of plastic around it instead of white.

NO, all 18 gauge wire is NOT identical. You know nothing
about wire or cabling for any use at all, let alone audio.
While it is not necessary to have a "pretty" decorated
covering over the cable or designer plugs, that does not
change the fact that wire gauge is but one parameter in it's
specs. Even so, the differences aren't so substantial when
considering speaker wire, make more of a difference the
smaller the gauge, as with replacing very cheap headphone
cables with (at least) moderate quality wire- not
necessarily audiphile wire, just something not optmized for
light weight and flexibility.

Of course. When you've been able to demonstrate that you can detect
a difference more than 75% of the time using an A/B/X test administered
by an unbiased professional, be sure and let us know though, it will
be earth-shattering news in the audio community and you'll be famous.

Don't thing that I'm arguing FOR expensive cabling, that is
a waste of $$$$. Below a certain point though it would
easily make an audible difference... for example running off
CAT5 or bell wire WILL sound worse than 12 gauge. There is
measurable signal loss, double-blind tests aren't even
needed.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

It's been years since I've been reading up on this stuff.

However, I've heard differences in cables myself, as have many others.

Just because that particular zip cord sounded good doesn't mean they all
will. Radio Shack 18 ga. solid core copper wire actually got a
recommendation in Stereophile, I think it was.

Something a little different: Try 18 ga. vs 14 ga. and see if the bass is
softer on 18 ga.

Doesn't your own choice of words tell you something? Instead of saying
that the low end frequency response is 0.001dB better with 14 AWG
cable than with 18 AWG, audiophiles use meaningless, unquantifiable
abstractions such as "softer", "tighter", "crisper", "warmer",
"cleaner", blah, blah, blah.

I don't care to debate on and on though.

- Franc Zabkar

 

[Ed Light]

Was it a blind test, or did you just decide on your own that you
could hear it? The so-called "placebo effect". It's hard to admit
you paid too much, much easier for the brain to convince you that
there is a difference.

Lighten up! Ow!

One speaker building pro insisted that since there is a long run of fine
little wire in a woofer's voice coil, the gauge of the wire you hook it up
with means nothing.

Another, a supplier of parts, says that using larger wire for bass makes a
difference.

The former guy also amazed many by making a woofer go as low in a closed box
as in a ported box. I was rebuked for saying it couldn't be done normally.
So after some discussion it turns out that his devotees must have become
disullusioned when he came out with how he did it -- he inserted a resistor
in the line, upping the q.

Anyhow, as to the gauges, I tried 18ga. common monster on one side and 14ga.
common monster on the other. The speakers had deep bass, with no overly
low-fi hi-q. The bass was definitely softer on the 18ga. Unless space
weapons were messing with my setup electronically - I don't have a hardened
bunker to keep them out.

All 18ga copper wire is identical. Copper is an element, it doesn't
change physical properties just because someone wraps a beautifully
decorated piece of plastic around it instead of white.

There is oxygen-free copper. There is solid core copper. There is stranded
copper. There is magnetized copper. There is multi-strands with individual
insulation. Etc. etc. There are different insulators.

Admittedly, if you don't have a high-end setup and a totally undamaged ear,
you might not hear anything. (My setup isn't high-end.)

Of course. When you've been able to demonstrate that you can detect
a difference more than 75% of the time using an A/B/X test administered
by an unbiased professional, be sure and let us know though, it will
be earth-shattering news in the audio community and you'll be famous.

I don't think I'll be able to get that equipment, in order to redeem myself
from my present miserably state.


--
Ed Light

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[Ed Light]

Below a certain point though it would
easily make an audible difference... for example running off
CAT5 or bell wire WILL sound worse than 12 gauge. There is
measurable signal loss, double-blind tests aren't even
needed.

Hooray! I really did hear something!


--
Ed Light

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[Ed Light]

Doesn't your own choice of words tell you something? Instead of saying
that the low end frequency response is 0.001dB better with 14 AWG
cable than with 18 AWG, audiophiles use meaningless, unquantifiable
abstractions such as "softer", "tighter", "crisper", "warmer",
"cleaner", blah, blah, blah.

I've given you a test you can do. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

It requires a decent component mid-fi receiver and a decent pair of
component speakers with decently low and clean bass response.

If you have those, use identically branded 18 and 14 -- well -- use 18 and
12 ga. wire. Or how about 20 and 10 ga.? Anyhow, put one on each channel --
of course you need a mono source, like an fm receiver that can be set to
mono -- and go back and forth to see if the 18 ga. has lighter lower bass in
relation to the rest of the sound. Pick a program will wide-range, clean
bass, like jazz. Feel the bass punch and compare it.

Try the speakers on the opposite channels to make sure one speaker isn't
stronger, and try them in opposite positions to make sure that room
acoustics aren't affecting it.

Now you may discover the meaning of "softer" and "tighter" and "punchier".
You may not ever want to listen through 18 ga. again.

Then too, I can't guarantee it. Your mind may not change at all. Whatever.

--
Ed Light

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[Ralph Wade Phillips]

Howdy!

276-1372.

Live it up! You can use Ceramique, or Arctic Alumina.

I've read that that ordinary stuff can dry up.

It can. Why, after 15 to 20 years of 24/7 operation, the HS
compound under a power transistor running at almost 80C can dry up! ...

But even the "cheap crap" at Radio Shack will last several years.

Now, if you use Crest toothpaste or Vegemite instead ...

RwP

 

[Guest]

I tried 18ga. common monster on one side and 14ga. common
monster on the other. The speakers had deep bass, with no
overly low-fi hi-q. The bass was definitely softer on the
18ga.

There is oxygen-free copper. There is solid core copper.
There is stranded copper. There is magnetized copper.
There is multi-strands with individual insulation.
Etc. etc. There are different insulators.

Admittedly, if you don't have a high-end setup and a totally
undamaged ear, you might not hear anything.

Nobody will hear any difference, regardless of the equipment quality,
unless the wires are so long that their DC resistance is a significant
fraction of the crossover's and driver coils', or maybe if the wires
are the individually insulated multiconductor type (low-inductance
wire). The latter should be avoided since its capacitance can cause
some amplifiers to oscillate, even enough to damage them.
How do you magnetize copper wire to more than a trivial degree?

 

[Ed Light]

Nobody will hear any difference, regardless of the equipment quality,
unless the wires are so long that their DC resistance is a significant
fraction of the crossover's and driver coils', or maybe if the wires
are the individually insulated multiconductor type (low-inductance
wire). The latter should be avoided since its capacitance can cause
some amplifiers to oscillate, even enough to damage them.
How do you magnetize copper wire to more than a trivial degree?

I heard it. So maybe I'm daft? Gauge really does matter.

Try it.

--
Ed Light

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[Guest]

Nobody will hear any difference [between 14ga and 18ga],
regardless of the equipment quality, unless the wires
are so long that their DC resistance is a significant
fraction of the crossover's and driver coils', or maybe
if the wires are the individually insulated multiconductor
type (low-inductance wire). The latter should be avoided
since its capacitance can cause some amplifiers to
oscillate, even enough to damage them.

How do you magnetize copper wire to more than a trivial degree?

I heard it. So maybe I'm daft? Gauge really does matter.

Try it.

Gauge matters up to a point, but it's way above 18ga.

In a past century, a friend of mine compared Monster cable to Christmas
light extension cord (cheap source of zip cord after Dec. 25) and
thought he heard differences, but he didn't consistently choose one
type of wire over the other. I also heard no differences but did hear
bad sound because it turned out that a defective bootstrap capacitor
was causing 3% THD @ 1 KHz.

I still want to know how copper wire can be magnetized, except while
current is flowing through it.

 

[kony]

Gauge matters up to a point, but it's way above 18ga.

18 ga. is still within the range of potential observable
loss.

In a past century, a friend of mine compared Monster cable to Christmas
light extension cord (cheap source of zip cord after Dec. 25) and
thought he heard differences, but he didn't consistently choose one
type of wire over the other. I also heard no differences but did hear
bad sound because it turned out that a defective bootstrap capacitor
was causing 3% THD @ 1 KHz.

Monster cable is not high-end cable. It's hyped, beautified
cable that acts more like lamp cord with poor connector
contacts. Truely if there is a rip-off Monster would be up
their with the majority of their products.

 

[Ed Light]

I still want to know how copper wire can be magnetized, except while
current is flowing through it.

As I said, it's been a long time, but there was a review of magnetized wire.
I'm not sure if it was speaker wire, or just interconnects.


--
Ed Light

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[Ed Light]

Not being an electrical engineer, I still have a conjecture about gauge.

When you're measuring the dcr you're putting a tiny current through from a
test instrument. When you're pumping actual bass through, there's more
conductor area for all those electrons in the larger wire to rush through.


--
Ed Light

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[David Maynard]

Doesn't your own choice of words tell you something? Instead of saying
that the low end frequency response is 0.001dB better with 14 AWG
cable than with 18 AWG, audiophiles use meaningless, unquantifiable
abstractions such as "softer", "tighter", "crisper", "warmer",
"cleaner", blah, blah, blah.

That's because there's a lot more to 'sound' than simply frequency response.

 

[T]

You don't have your amps hand-built with gold connectors ? Tut, tut.

And Silver Solder.


TBerk

 

[Randy Howard]

In FACT, there are easily measured electrical and frequency
differences when the cable is longer, and/or higher gauge.

When I said "cable is cable", I meant of equivalent gauge and
length. Nowhere did I mention comparing copper wire out of
a piece of CAT5 to 10ga wire.

That's not an argument for audiophile grade
cables, only one for sufficient spacing or shielding and low
enough gauge per application.

Of course.

NO, all 18 gauge wire is NOT identical. You know nothing
about wire or cabling for any use at all, let alone audio.

Let me know when you can here the difference between *ANY*
chosen pair of speaker wires of the same length and gauge
sold for audio applications. I don't care if it is from
Radio Shack or Frederico's Designer Wire Shop. As soon as
you have demonstrated it being AUDIBLE, with a percentage
of accuracy greater than coin flips, you let us know.

 

[Randy Howard]

Hooray! I really did hear something!

So you were comparing cat5 wire to "audiophile" wire? Or, do
you just have a reading disorder to go along with the hearing
one? Why on earth would anyone use CAT5 copper wire for speakers
in practice, or even for a contrived example on Usenet?

 

[Randy Howard]

Lighten up! Ow!

This is Usenet. Put on your flame-retardant clothing. Especially if
you are going to claim to be able to do something that has *never*
been demonstrated by experts in the field.

One speaker building pro insisted that since there is a long run of fine
little wire in a woofer's voice coil, the gauge of the wire you hook it up
with means nothing.

Another, a supplier of parts, says that using larger wire for bass makes a
difference.

Why don't you try it (in a real test, not one you administer to yourself)
and find out? It's a lot better than going by whatever word of mouth
tells you. Get a few others to help you, and hook up a system so that
they can swap out the wire without you knowing which is which, and see
if you can "hear it" when you don't know for sure. It's easy to hear
things when you think they are supposed to be there. Google for ABX testing.

There is oxygen-free copper. There is solid core copper. There is stranded
copper. There is magnetized copper. There is multi-strands with individual
insulation. Etc. etc. There are different insulators.

Let me know when you have demonstrated that you can reliably hear a difference
between them when length and gauge or held constant. For the mean time,
they sound great to a marketing guy or any of their intended victims.

 

[kony]

When I said "cable is cable", I meant of equivalent gauge and
length. Nowhere did I mention comparing copper wire out of
a piece of CAT5 to 10ga wire.

Ok, i did take it out of context. The gauge is usually the
most important part, assuming there isn't some other unusal
problem.

Of course.


Let me know when you can here the difference between *ANY*
chosen pair of speaker wires of the same length and gauge
sold for audio applications. I don't care if it is from
Radio Shack or Frederico's Designer Wire Shop. As soon as
you have demonstrated it being AUDIBLE, with a percentage
of accuracy greater than coin flips, you let us know.

Whether I can hear a difference is not necessarily same as
"18 gauge wire is identical". Perhaps you meant "18 gauge
wire /sounds/ identical", which would usually be true.

One thing often overlooked though, is that it is not
necessary to be able demonstrate the difference in audible
testing to any certain degree of accuracy. Why not?
Because an audio system is a sum of it's parts.

Since we're in computer-related newsgroups, let's use a
computing example. In user perception tests there may not
be a majority that could tell two (otherwise identical
machines) had a P4 3.0 GHz vs a P4 3.2GHz. They may not be
able to differentiate between a 50 MB/s HDD or a 48MB/s HDD
either, nor many other aspects where there is only a minor
difference. That doesn't mean the difference doesn't exist,
it is additive.

So if someone has a 30W integrated desktop stereo, they may
have so many limitations to sound quality that different
cabling is not going to matter... but along with every area
of a percent or two difference, it all can add up to a
better system. Even so, changing from one 18 gauge cable to
another isn't likely to make a difference unless one cable
had better soldering/crimping or connectors.