"Frankenbuilds": the monster is dying...

[Dale]

Let's be reasonable here Richard. Bill Gates, and many many others, didn't
become the richest people in the world in very few years because Microsoft
was selling products as cheaply as possible. They're making a lot of money.

I don't begrudge Bill Gates et al their money at all. I am probably the
single most vociferous
anti-piracy-defender-of-Microsoft's-right-to-sell-their-product poster in
this news group.

Even so, how much less could Microsoft have sold Windows for and Bill Gates
still been a billionaire? He did what was his right: he sold his products
at the highest price the market would bear. Don't forget that in agreeing
with the previous poster's corporate greed statement, I also said that does
not give anyone else the right to steal Windows Vista.

Dale

P.S. Microsoft is a notorious under-payer. You should probably figure, for
the average member of their Vista team, somewhere closer to $60,000 a year.
Many make less than $30,000 (my guess only) and a handful probably do make
$200,000. Add about 50% in benefits and other costs, and then round up, say
it is closer to $100,000 per year per employee. Then when you figure that
they didn't have the entire Vista team on staff at one time. Many of those
thousands either came in late - as their services were needed, or left
early - as their services were no longer needed. So, let's be generous and
say one billion dollars instead of two.

Dale

 

[Alias]

I agree it is corporate greed. They are not pricing their products
based on production costs, add a reasonable profit, and you have a
selling price. Their model is, as is most of the corporate world, how
much will the market bear.

And since most corporations price their products using that same
philosophy, I guess you really shouldn't pay for anything. Steal
everything.

There is one reason that software, music, videos, and other intellectual
property get stolen more than everything else: you can do it in the
privacy of your home and no one knows. It's still stealing.

Dale

I don't know about where you live but here in Spain, the cost of music
cds/dvds have dropped dramatically and most of them don't have DRM built
into them.

Yaknow, back when we had video cassettes and audio cassettes, the owners
of IP screamed to high heaven. They did it when reel-to-reel tape
recorders came out that you could hook up to the radio and copy songs.
All their hype was just that, hype. MS has all the Microfants thinking
that everyone, if they could, would steal. It was disproven then and is,
once again, hype. The difference is you couldn't put DRM crap on video
or audio cassettes, much less reel-to-reel.

MS and the other Big Software Boys need to stop going after their paying
customers with WPA and WGA and going after the real Pirates who have 24
towers with four burners a piece cranking out CDs in four rooms that
poor immigrants sell on the street and in the bars.

Alias

 

[Richard Urban]

It is not about Bill Gates. His company went public a long time ago. The
board of directors has to show a profit for the millions of share holders,
even if Bill Gates gets zero dollars per year in salary and benefits.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Alias]

Greed!

I read somewhere that Microsoft had thousands of people (lets assume for
a number, 2000) working on Vista. Now, lets assume $200,000 per year per
engineer and programmer. that is 200,000 x 2000 = $400,000,000 per year.
It took 5 years to bring to market. That is $400,000,000 x 5 = 2 Billion
dollars.

That is simply for personnel costs. Now, add to that expense benefits
for 5 years which most estimate at about 1/3 of the salary. Then add the
equipment they had to purchase for testing for those people. The
electricity, property costs (whether they own the building or rent)
etc., etc.

What's the proposed life span of Vista. Didn't they say that we would
not have to wait more than 3 years for the next O/S? I think I read
that. So, Microsoft has to clear that 2 billion plus dollars (just for
the O/S - not even considering Office) in three years. Plus, they would
like to make a profit on the 5 years time that each of these individuals
put into the O/S.

What do you think they should sell the operating system for?

You forgot the figure for how many people will be buying Vista. Without
that figure, one cannot calculate jack sh*t.

Alias

 

[Dale]

Good points. For example, DAT was outlawed in the US. No, DAT drives for
backing up your server are not DAT. DAT = Digital Audio Tape. The fear was
that everyone would make exact duplicates of their CDs. It makes you wonder
how CD-R slipped through the RIAA-Congressional cracks. And the RIAA has
been granted, by Congress, the right to break into your home, search your
computer, and remove your personal property if they think it has been stolen
without you having the benefit of a single court hearing.

Dale

 

[BobC]

MS knows they have competition,see page 15 of the 2006 annual report ;
downloadable from Microsoft.com ,Form10-Q.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

I do not make out giving to be a problem.
However selective reading may bring you to that conclusion.

What you say about donating time is not really a surprise.
What you do not say is also no surprise.
Who determines what and how much you and your father donate?
Who hounds you because they do not think you give enough and what do you
give them when they make the same point you attempt to make here?

 

[mxh]

Morality *is* besides the point and distracts from the discussion.

No, morality is *not* beside the point. In fact, morality *is* the point.
Your attempt to sweep it under the rug as irrelevant is what distracts. Cart
before the horse, so to speak. That people steal is a character issue, try
as you might to blame it on the victim.

Now it may well be that MS hasn't taken the best approach to stem 'piracy'.
This is irrelevant. Those who steal do so because they *choose* to steal.
That MS may or may not somehow encourage it is incidental. And a court of
law would agree. If one is so inclined, one may find all manner of
justification for such acts.

What you would have me understand is that MS has structured their pricing
and anti-piracy policies in such a way as to encourage or even guarantee
piracy. What I would have you understand is that it MS policies are
irrelevant. Those who indulge themselves in these types of behaviours do so
because of their own issues, and because they choose to, and will continue
to choose to even if MS were to change said policies.

This is a concept called 'accountibility', i.e., taking responsibilities for
one's own actions. Perhaps you've heard of it?

So has the Mob, the Colombian Cartel, Hugo Chavez and the owners of
McDonald's. That doesn't make someone respectworthy unless your god is the
Almighty Dollar.

Ahh, now I see. Your objectivity is tainted by your contempt for corporate
greed, which is understandable, but can be, as you stated earlier, a
distraction from the point.

Where's your morality now, Mother Teresa?

Intact. By all appearances, however, it might not hurt for you to direct
some energy toward examining your own.

So money = goodness/empire/rule the world/your HERO?

Must you be obtuse? You seem intelligent enough to comprehend the point, so
I shan't bother to hand hold you through it. I will, however, say that it
appears that you allow your contempt for corporate 'immorality' to
compromise your objectivity. This is not to say that, at least in some
cases, such contempt is without foundation, but, as with anything, balance
is required.

 

[mxh]

Like mxh, the pirates rate success in profits. It's amazing; he's looking
in the mirror and doesn't even know it.

Come, come, now, Al. You are drawing conclusions and declaring them as
reality based on facts not at all in evidence, and have missed the points
entirely. This seems to be habitual where you are concerned. I've listed
them below in clear language for your reading pleasure:

1) Stealing is always about the 'thief', not those who are being stolen
from, regardless of their actions.

2) Though MS might change their policies, the majority of those who steal or
pirate now will continue to do so. This is where that nasty 'morality' thing
comes in, Al.

3) When I stated (quote):

"Perhaps, though, if you write them a letter, they'll recognize the error of
their thinking. So far, it's only brought in billions.",

this was in reference to your statement:

"> I am merely telling you why it happens, not if it's morally OK or not.

Another example would be cocaine. If the price for cocaine in Colombia
were the same as New York, the smugglers would go out of business."

The point being, Al, that MS probably will be OK without your advice. You
seem to have somehow twisted this into a comparison of similarity between
myself and 'the pirates'? Or that you magically know my character? Or that
it's all about money for me?

These are a fool's assumptions Al, and are reinforced as such when you
declare them to be fact, even though all you know of me is what you have
gleaned from a few posts in this thread, and, indeed, misrepresented them in
your replies. So, if you so willingly misrepresent the truth in some cases,
how does that impact your credibility?

mxh

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Reading this thread is like watching the highlight reel from a trainwreck.

 

[Alias]

No, morality is *not* beside the point. In fact, morality *is* the
point. Your attempt to sweep it under the rug as irrelevant is what
distracts. Cart before the horse, so to speak. That people steal is a
character issue, try as you might to blame it on the victim.

Sorry, but money is the point. If there wasn't a large price spread, no
piracy would occur, regardless of anyone's morality.

Now it may well be that MS hasn't taken the best approach to stem
'piracy'. This is irrelevant. Those who steal do so because they
*choose* to steal. That MS may or may not somehow encourage it is
incidental. And a court of law would agree. If one is so inclined, one
may find all manner of justification for such acts.

What you misunderstand is that I am not trying to justify stealing but
that it is directly linked to price.

What you would have me understand is that MS has structured their
pricing and anti-piracy policies in such a way as to encourage or even
guarantee piracy.
Bingo.

What I would have you understand is that it MS
policies are irrelevant. Those who indulge themselves in these types of
behaviours do so because of their own issues, and because they choose
to, and will continue to choose to even if MS were to change said policies.

It would be hard to buy pirated goods if they weren't available.

This is a concept called 'accountibility', i.e., taking responsibilities
for one's own actions. Perhaps you've heard of it?

Yeah, I've heard of it. Show me one head of state that follows your
guidance. This is the real world, chum, where morality has taken a back
seat to the all might dollar.

Now, as to myself, there was a time that I was very poor and one night I
was walking down the street with no money and a family to feed the next
day and I saw a man passed out on the street with the equivalent of a
couple hundred dollars falling out of his pocket. We hadn't eaten that
day and there was no guarantee we would eat the next. Instead of taking
the man's money, I woke him up and took him home.

Ahh, now I see. Your objectivity is tainted by your contempt for
corporate greed, which is understandable, but can be, as you stated
earlier, a distraction from the point.

No, I just tried to point out what "OK" means as far as MS is concerned.

Intact. By all appearances, however, it might not hurt for you to direct
some energy toward examining your own.

I really can't stand morality pushers, especially those who haven't had
to worry about money all their lives.

 

[Alias]

Good points. For example, DAT was outlawed in the US. No, DAT drives
for backing up your server are not DAT. DAT = Digital Audio Tape. The
fear was that everyone would make exact duplicates of their CDs. It
makes you wonder how CD-R slipped through the RIAA-Congressional
cracks. And the RIAA has been granted, by Congress, the right to break
into your home, search your computer, and remove your personal property
if they think it has been stolen without you having the benefit of a
single court hearing.

Dale

Really? That's scary.

Alias

 

[Alias]

Actually, high school english would dictate that 'IMO' distinguishes a
statement of opinion that otherwise seems to be written as fact. For
instance, your statement:

I see you flunked High School English. I am an English teacher and if
you wrote it, it's your opinion unless you clarify it as fact or someone
else's opinion.

">>> The ONLY reasons his foundation exists are for tax purposes and to

is written as a statement of fact, *not* as an opinion.

Your misinterpretation. Maybe if you go back to school ...

Your assertion
that an opinion is an opinion because "THEY WROTE IT!" is incorrect and
shows that you failed to think it through before posting it. After all,
people are not limited to writing only opinions, are they. They *can*
post facts, can they not? Including the acronym IMO may seem redundant
to you, but including it may have made you appear less arrogant and
therefore less ignorant.


mxh

Unless someone states that it is a fact, the *fact* that they wrote it
means it's their opinion. Do you think Dickens should have laced his
books with IMO when he was talking about the Victorian Age? BTW, in
those days, in England stealing was punished by hanging and being poor
was illegal and, that, my friend, is not my opinion but a fact.

Alias

 

[Richard Urban]

mxh wrote:

***Crap snipped***

Sorry, but money is the point. If there wasn't a large price spread, no
piracy would occur, regardless of anyone's morality.

***Crap snipped***

##############################################################################
##############################################################################

So, you are saying that if everyone within a certain countries boundries
earned exactly the same amount of money per year, there would be on theft or
roberies? No envy of something that someone else has, but you don't. And, if
there is envy - everyone in this mystical country can control that envy. No
prisons. What a utopia that would be.

Where is this magical land? I will move there before the end of next year.

You are saying that there are no persons born with an inherrent urge to
steal. Hell, hundreds of thousands are being treated for this daily in
hospitals and in prisons.


You really have to get a grip on reality! You have finally ventured over the
edge in that you don't even proof read what you type before hitting the send
button. You are so eager, and anxious, to "prove" yourself right that you
just flail away at the keyboard - mindlessly.





--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Alias]

***Crap snipped***




***Crap snipped***

##############################################################################

##############################################################################


So, you are saying that if everyone within a certain countries boundries
earned exactly the same amount of money per year, there would be on
theft or roberies?
No.

No envy of something that someone else has, but you
don't.
No.

And, if there is envy - everyone in this mystical country can
control that envy. No prisons. What a utopia that would be.

Don't put words in my mouth that aren't there.

Where is this magical land? I will move there before the end of next year.

It doesn't exist.

You are saying that there are no persons born with an inherrent urge to
steal. Hell, hundreds of thousands are being treated for this daily in
hospitals and in prisons.

I didn't say that either.

You really have to get a grip on reality! You have finally ventured over
the edge in that you don't even proof read what you type before hitting
the send button. You are so eager, and anxious, to "prove" yourself
right that you just flail away at the keyboard - mindlessly.

So, insulting me is the only thing you have. Why am I not surprised?

Alias

 

[Glenn Shaw]

For example, DAT was outlawed in the US.

[snip]

Sorry, no, DAT was *not* "outlawed" in the US -- the Audio Home
Recording Act of 1992 merely forced DAT recorder manufacturers to add
serial copy protection to DAT to prevent second- and
subsequent-generation digital copies. (Serial copy protection was also
added the two other digital audio recording media of the day, Digital
Compact Cassette [DCC] and MiniDisc [MD].)

DAT *failed in the marketplace* due to its inherent flaws (it was a
tape-based contact media with all of the same mechanical flaws as analog
audio cassettes), and was subsequently passed over as a digital
recording medium (at least among consumers) in favor of recordable CDs
(which, incidentally, never took off as a stand-alone audio recording
media, with most users preferring to use their computers for recording
audio to CD).

*NO* US law *forced* manufacturers to *stop* making DAT recorders. Low
consumer acceptance of the DAT format eventually did that.

 

[Richard Urban]

People steal because they <<***WANT***>> to steal.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Dale]

Now, as to myself, there was a time that I was very poor and one night I
was walking down the street with no money and a family to feed the next
day and I saw a man passed out on the street with the equivalent of a
couple hundred dollars falling out of his pocket. We hadn't eaten that day
and there was no guarantee we would eat the next. Instead of taking the
man's money, I woke him up and took him home.

And I really appreciated it. I've been looking for you ever since to give
you a reward. Here's a free copy of Vista.
<snip>

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

"If there wasn't a large price spread, no piracy would occur, regardless of
anyone's morality."
At what point is there not a large price spread?
By what you said, at that point "no piracy would occur".
All it would take is 1, once to prove your statement completely false.
However we both know there is no such price where "no piracy would occur".
Price spread does little to affect piracy other than possibly to influence
the price the thieves ask.

Thieves steal because it is in their nature.
Reducing the price would do little to stop piracy.
Even if Windows was free directly from Microsoft, the same morality that led
them to steal would lead some to distributing through illegitimate chanels.

 

[Dale]

I disagree. There were no DAT devices ever offered in the United States
because of the digital copy protection which, for all intents and purposes,
banned DAT in the US. DAT was a success in high end audio systems in many
other parts of the world.

Dale

For example, DAT was outlawed in the US.

[snip]

Sorry, no, DAT was *not* "outlawed" in the US -- the Audio Home Recording
Act of 1992 merely forced DAT recorder manufacturers to add serial copy
protection to DAT to prevent second- and subsequent-generation digital
copies. (Serial copy protection was also added the two other digital audio
recording media of the day, Digital Compact Cassette [DCC] and MiniDisc
[MD].)

DAT *failed in the marketplace* due to its inherent flaws (it was a
tape-based contact media with all of the same mechanical flaws as analog
audio cassettes), and was subsequently passed over as a digital recording
medium (at least among consumers) in favor of recordable CDs (which,
incidentally, never took off as a stand-alone audio recording media, with
most users preferring to use their computers for recording audio to CD).

*NO* US law *forced* manufacturers to *stop* making DAT recorders. Low
consumer acceptance of the DAT format eventually did that.