Alias said:A large computer store chain in Spain has been selling computers with
the Linux of your choice installed for years. In the USA, of course,
this won't happen any more than they will elect a president that isn't a
total idiot.
I installed Ubuntu in two hours. It took five days to properly install
all the drivers for XP on the same machine.
Alias said:The fact that they are even considering it writes volumes. The fact that
they can't make up their mind is probably one of the reasons they went
from number one to number two.
Zilbandy said:The non English speaking, heavily accented support people reading from
scripted troubleshooting procedures are the reasons I'm done with
Dell. I used Dells for the last 10 years, but next computer will
probably be built by a local company. Even if the local company goes
out of business, it can't be any worse than trying to get support from
India.
Gary VanderMolen said:You hit the nail on the head. As a former Dell Inspiron 8200 laptop
owner I can honestly say that I will never become a Dell customer
again until their support people speak fluent, understandable English.
Gary VanderMolen
Gary said:You've just managed to insult all US residents.
That was hardly called
for.
computer doesn't mean much.
A sample of one doesn't mean much. It takes me an average of 45
minutes to install XP SP2 on a typical machine. Add 30 minutes to
download and install the latest OS updates. Vista takes even less
since there are few updates yet.
Gary VanderMolen
Gary said:And if Dell goes for it again it will probably be as short-lived. There
just aren't enough Linux zealots to make such an endeavor financially
worthwhile.
Gary VanderMolen
Gary said:Hardly. Their horrible customer support is what sank them to number two.
I know, I was a former Dell customer.
Eric said:I might consider Dell for a new PC if they can offer a better price than
any other site, because I don't need support.
The last time that Dell played with Linux on regular boxes was a similar
response to calls at about the time that XP was in the same situation as
Vista is in now.. Dell dropped Linux like a hot potato on anything other
than servers,
arachnid said:The last time that Dell played with Linux on regular boxes was a similar
response to calls at about the time that XP was in the same situation as
Vista is in now.. Dell dropped Linux like a hot potato on anything other
than servers,
"Hot Potato" is apt. Dell's advertising campaign was just getting started
when it suddenly went amost totally silent and the Linux order page got
buried so deeply on their website that even people who knew they now sold
Linux machines couldn't find it.
We don't have to look far to find a likely suspect. Microsoft is
historically extremely aggressive towards OS competitors and has been
known to bribe or threaten OEM's to keep competitors off OEM machines:
: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/03/19/microsoft_killed_dell_linux_states/
:
: The States' remedy hearing opened in DC yesterday, and States
: attorney Steven Kuney produced a devastating memo from Kempin, then
: in charge of Microsoft's OEM business, written after Judge Jackson
: had ordered his break-up of the company. Kempin raises the
: possibility of threatening Dell and other PC builders which promote
: Linux.:
:
: "I'm thinking of hitting the OEMs harder than in the past with
: anti-Linux.... they should do a delicate dance," Kempin wrote to
: Ballmer, in what is sure to be a memorable addition to the phrases
: ("knife the baby", "cut off the air supply") with which Microsoft
: enriched the English language in the first trial. Unlike those two,
: this is not contested.
:
: <snip>
:
: Earlier memos described that it was "untenable" that a key Microsoft
: partner was promoting Linux. Kuney revealed that Dell disbanded its
: Linux business unit in early 2001. Dell quietly pulled Linux from its
: desktop PCs in the summer of 2001, IDG's Ashlee Vance discovered
: subsequently, six months after we heard Michael Dell declare his love
: of Linux on the desktop the previous winter.
:
: Compaq was also mentioned in other memos, with Microsoft taking the
: line that OEMs should "meet demand but not help create demand" for
: Linux.
What exactly might Microsoft have done to Dell to prompt so sudden a
retreat? Here's one possibility:
: http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/06/10/secret_deals_ms_uses/
:
: Some of the conditions that Microsoft presented to IBM if it wished
: to get a licence for Windows 9x or NT4 were: "adopt Windows 95 as the
: standard operating system for IBM: $3 [discount per Windows 95
: licence]"; "Windows 95 is the only operating system mentioned in
: advertisement", to gain a $1 MDA reduction; and "reduce, drop or
: eliminate OS/2", which would be worth a total of $8 in MDA reduction.
And from:
: <http://news.com.com/Did+Microsoft+w...r+its+Linux+dealings/2100-1014_3-6153904.html>
:
: "While this may sound provocative, what counts at the end of the day
: is what actually happened," he said. "Looking at subsequent portions
: of this e-mail thread, which the plaintiffs chose to exclude from
: their exhibits, it's evident that we didn't take any retaliatory
: action against Dell. In fact, we very clearly increased our
: investment with Dell."
So, I wonder if "increased our investment" means "we paid them to bury
Linux"? It would certainly be consistent with their behavior with IBM and
other OEM's as documented in the DOJ antitrust trial.
It would also be consistent with what happened with BeOS. BeOS collapsed
after finding it impossible for some mysterious reason to market to OEM's
even though their product was doing well on the retail market and
receiving rave reviews in the media. They claimed later to have come into
information that MS had entered into secret and illegal agreements with
OEM's not to put BeOS on their machines. Since the agreements were secret,
the OEM's couldn't even tell BeOS why all the money they were spending
trying to penetrate the OEM market was a hopeless cause. Based on this
information they sued Microsoft who eventually settled out of court for
$23 million in return for having the records sealed.
There's a brief article on the lawsuit here:
: http://siliconvalley.internet.com/news/article.php/3073811
:
: Previously, Be claimed that in 1998 its Be Operating System was to be
: part of Hitachi's pre-installed "dual boot system." Be says Microsoft
: was angry with Hitachi's decision and pressured the company with higher
: prices for its Windows OS. Any price increase would pressure Hitachi's
: margins on each PC, making it more cost-effective to remove the BeOS.
:
: Also prior to the settlement, Be had said Compaq Computer, now known as
: Hewlett-Packard (Quote), had agreed to develop a new Internet appliance
: based on the BeOS. In legal documents, Be said the deal fell through
: after Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates put negotiating pressure on former
: Compaq CEO Eckhard Pfieffer.
Due to all the secrecy we can't know anything for sure, but I do know that
Dell buried Linux before ever having a chance to see how the market
would respond, and I do know that Microsoft has been caught before bribing
or threatening OEMs to keep OS competitors off their machines.
arachnid said:The last time that Dell played with Linux on regular boxes was a similar
response to calls at about the time that XP was in the same situation as
Vista is in now.. Dell dropped Linux like a hot potato on anything other
than servers,
"Hot Potato" is apt. Dell's advertising campaign was just getting started
when it suddenly went amost totally silent and the Linux order page got
buried so deeply on their website that even people who knew they now sold
Linux machines couldn't find it.
We don't have to look far to find a likely suspect. Microsoft is
historically extremely aggressive towards OS competitors and has been
known to bribe or threaten OEM's to keep competitors off OEM machines:
: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/03/19/microsoft_killed_dell_linux_states/
:
: The States' remedy hearing opened in DC yesterday, and States
: attorney Steven Kuney produced a devastating memo from Kempin, then
: in charge of Microsoft's OEM business, written after Judge Jackson
: had ordered his break-up of the company. Kempin raises the
: possibility of threatening Dell and other PC builders which promote
: Linux.:
:
: "I'm thinking of hitting the OEMs harder than in the past with
: anti-Linux.... they should do a delicate dance," Kempin wrote to
: Ballmer, in what is sure to be a memorable addition to the phrases
: ("knife the baby", "cut off the air supply") with which Microsoft
: enriched the English language in the first trial. Unlike those two,
: this is not contested.
:
: <snip>
:
: Earlier memos described that it was "untenable" that a key Microsoft
: partner was promoting Linux. Kuney revealed that Dell disbanded its
: Linux business unit in early 2001. Dell quietly pulled Linux from its
: desktop PCs in the summer of 2001, IDG's Ashlee Vance discovered
: subsequently, six months after we heard Michael Dell declare his love
: of Linux on the desktop the previous winter.
:
: Compaq was also mentioned in other memos, with Microsoft taking the
: line that OEMs should "meet demand but not help create demand" for
: Linux.
What exactly might Microsoft have done to Dell to prompt so sudden a
retreat? Here's one possibility:
: http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/06/10/secret_deals_ms_uses/
:
: Some of the conditions that Microsoft presented to IBM if it wished
: to get a licence for Windows 9x or NT4 were: "adopt Windows 95 as the
: standard operating system for IBM: $3 [discount per Windows 95
: licence]"; "Windows 95 is the only operating system mentioned in
: advertisement", to gain a $1 MDA reduction; and "reduce, drop or
: eliminate OS/2", which would be worth a total of $8 in MDA reduction.
And from:
::
: "While this may sound provocative, what counts at the end of the day
: is what actually happened," he said. "Looking at subsequent portions
: of this e-mail thread, which the plaintiffs chose to exclude from
: their exhibits, it's evident that we didn't take any retaliatory
: action against Dell. In fact, we very clearly increased our
: investment with Dell."
So, I wonder if "increased our investment" means "we paid them to bury
Linux"? It would certainly be consistent with their behavior with IBM and
other OEM's as documented in the DOJ antitrust trial.
It would also be consistent with what happened with BeOS. BeOS collapsed
after finding it impossible for some mysterious reason to market to OEM's
even though their product was doing well on the retail market and
receiving rave reviews in the media. They claimed later to have come into
information that MS had entered into secret and illegal agreements with
OEM's not to put BeOS on their machines. Since the agreements were secret,
the OEM's couldn't even tell BeOS why all the money they were spending
trying to penetrate the OEM market was a hopeless cause. Based on this
information they sued Microsoft who eventually settled out of court for
$23 million in return for having the records sealed.
There's a brief article on the lawsuit here:
: http://siliconvalley.internet.com/news/article.php/3073811
:
: Previously, Be claimed that in 1998 its Be Operating System was to be
: part of Hitachi's pre-installed "dual boot system." Be says Microsoft
: was angry with Hitachi's decision and pressured the company with higher
: prices for its Windows OS. Any price increase would pressure Hitachi's
: margins on each PC, making it more cost-effective to remove the BeOS.
:
: Also prior to the settlement, Be had said Compaq Computer, now known as
: Hewlett-Packard (Quote), had agreed to develop a new Internet appliance
: based on the BeOS. In legal documents, Be said the deal fell through
: after Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates put negotiating pressure on former
: Compaq CEO Eckhard Pfieffer.
Due to all the secrecy we can't know anything for sure, but I do know that
Dell buried Linux before ever having a chance to see how the market
would respond, and I do know that Microsoft has been caught before bribing
or threatening OEMs to keep OS competitors off their machines.
Oy vey. That explains why MS thinks they can make end users prove
they're not a thief not once, not twice, but three times per
installation or reinstallation and/or hardware changes. They're so good
at it, most Windows users think "I have nothing to hide" and, like
robots, happily do it without thinking.
I have hope, though, that the paying public is getting more educated
about these things and will vote with their pocketbook. Perhaps I am too
optimistic.
Alias said:No, only those who voted for Bush who, by so doing, insulted themselves.
Alias said:HP's customer support isn't too groovy either. No, people are getting
tired of all the Norton trial, McAffe trial, and all the other crap that
gets bundled in the hidden partition.
Alias said:Linux has changed a lot since 2000. Dell knows this. You obviously don't.
Eric said:I might consider Dell for a new PC if they can offer a better price than any
other site, because I don't need support.
__/ [ Alias ] on Tuesday 27 February 2007 02:28 \__
Oy vey. That explains why MS thinks they can make end users prove
they're not a thief not once, not twice, but three times per
installation or reinstallation and/or hardware changes. They're so good
at it, most Windows users think "I have nothing to hide" and, like
robots, happily do it without thinking.
I have hope, though, that the paying public is getting more educated
about these things and will vote with their pocketbook. Perhaps I am too
optimistic.
And apparently, Microsoft does this again with Dell. Here's the latest, I
suspect:
Dell takes small steps toward Linux
Gary said:So 50% of the US electorate are idiots?
I'd call that an insult, aside from
the fact that Bush is in fact the President of the whole country and
thereby deserving a modicum of respect for the office he holds.
Gary said:HP and Dell computers come with the same type of crappy trial software,
so that isn't the reason for those two companies to
switch their relative position.
Gary VanderMolen