Corrupt NTFS filesystem

[kony]

I never saw that post. You did not post any Registry keys like the
ones above on this forum that I can find.

Well you replied to the post I made that listed them, but
you snipped them out of your reply.

I ran a Google Groups Advanced search on this forum with "HKCU" as the
keyword. I found only this exact post - the one I am replying to right
here - and one other that had nothing to do with this discussion.

HKEY Current User.

As I already wrote, they're abbreviations, and if you were
actually doing it, you'd see the key in regedit.

Either your computer is broken or you are posting to another group or
you are hallucinating. But don't take my word for it - check it out
yourself on Google. If you find it, then I am hallucinating.

You replied to it.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....:kony+hkcu&rnum=2&hl=en&#doc_c6ecc0cae9bea167

(or tinyURL style):
http://tinyurl.com/yev756

If those are the only keys I have to deal with, then I can weed them
out in a text editor or a Registry editor.

Did you do a clean installation yet?
If not, this is exactly what you are doing wrong, trying to
think on things. You will have spent 3X as much time
thinking on it, as it would've taken to do it.
Remember this is a clean test installation, there is no
thought necessary, you are not jeopardizing data, and you
should be making backups of it. It is not at all necessary
to know the whole process, only to start doing it and go
from there.

Now that I know what keys to export, I can guage the size of the
project. It looks doable now, so I will put it on my calendar.

LOL

I give up, don't fix it.

 

[Citizen Bob]

HKCU-software, HKLM- software, HK-Classes-Root.

OK here's what I propose to do to make things easy with my setup.

I will clone the current NTFS boot partition to a new disk but make
the partition only half the disk. I will then create a new install of
Win2K on the second partition. I will mount these as D: (current) and
F: (new).

I will then export the above mentioned keys and save the exports for
later use. I will then copy the new Registry in F: in entirety to the
current partition D:, thereby replacing the entire Registry on D:. I
can copy anything else from the new install F: you think is important.

Then I can import the exported keys into the new Registry on D:.

That way I will have a new install of Win2K without having to copy all
the apps and other stuff. I just need to make sure I get the important
parts of the new install copied to the current partition so it behaves
like a new install.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

http://tinyurl.com/yev756

I passed that by because of the way you stated it:

A few of them would tend to be
HKLM-Software, HKCU-Software, and you mentioned classes so
HKCR.

"A few of them" tells me there are more.

"would tend to be" would tend to be.

Those phrases told me you were not sure, so I didn't take them as a
final statement.

So what is your final statement about the Registry keys I must
transfer to make this new install work? Is your last statement
correct:

HKCU-software, HKLM- software, HK-Classes-Root.

Is that correct?

Did you do a clean installation yet?

I have not done anything yet because I want to be certain what I am
going to do. Statements like

"A few of them" and "would tend to be" does not cut it with me. I
don't need a merry chase. I will try the "clean install" only when I
am confident that it will work.

If not, this is exactly what you are doing wrong, trying to
think on things. You will have spent 3X as much time
thinking on it, as it would've taken to do it.
Remember this is a clean test installation, there is no
thought necessary, you are not jeopardizing data, and you
should be making backups of it. It is not at all necessary
to know the whole process, only to start doing it and go
from there.

Please spare us the trite boring lectures. You have spent more time
finger wagging than anything else. You are not my mother so quit
trying to pretend you are.

I give up, don't fix it.

Now it's my turn to finger wag: That is childish.

But if you need to pout, go ahead if it makes you feel better. When
you grow up you will see how stupid that is.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

Irrelevant to what is possible for YOU to do for a TEST.

It is not irrelevant to me. I use my computer in financial
transactions every day, including weekends. I simply cannot stop using
it to run tests.

Wrong.

The problem does not manifest itself for days at a time. I would have
to install all the apps I normally use to perform a valid test and I
would have to do it for at least 1 week. I cannot afford to do that.
Although I do use my computer for recreation like you, I do use it for
finanacial transactions.

I doubt you actually run all that many of them every weekday

You do not know what you are talking about. How could you possibly
know what I run or do not run every weekday?

I do financial transactions every day of the week. The most intense
activity is during the week.

and if you do,

There is no "if I do". I do run financial transactions every day of
the week.

you can certainly do the other test, try with the
drive directly connected instead of in a removable drive bay.

Why would the removable bay corrupt an NTFS partition only at boot
time? I have never experienced a corrupt NTFS partition while running.

That's also why I do not believe that RAM memory is involved. Anyway I
have run extensive diagnostics on all hard drives and RAM and nothing
shows any signs of failure.

I doubt that involves all that many apps,

You do not know what you are talking about. How could you possibly
know what I run or do not run every weekday?

I do financial transactions every day of the week. The most intense
activity is during the week. They take quite a few apps to run in
entirety.

and if it does,

There is no "if I do". I do need a lot of apps.

you can certainly do the other test, try with the drive
directly connected instead of in a removable drive bay.

Why would the removable bay corrupt an NTFS partition only at boot
time? I have never experienced a corrupt NTFS partition while running.

But I plan on doing this test anyway, just to eliminate the
possibility however remote it may be.

You dont have to run them at the same time.

In order to reproduce the conditions that the corruption occurs I need
to run the test 24x7 for at least a week. I cannot reboot anytime or
the test will not be valid.

Now tell me, genius, how am I going to run my apps on the other
partition if I am running the test 24x7?

Then you can obviously install what you do need to run,

If I do that then I just as well do a clean reinstall and not chase
this problem down.

Unlikely given that its easier to cable an internal than a removable bay.

Again you do not know what you are talking about. I have two bays
connected to one cable. The second one is near the top of the
computer, whereas the drive I mount permanently is closer to the
bottom. I may not have enough cable to reach both.

However as I said, I have some hardware for mounting 3.5" drives in
5.25" bays, so I can mount the drive next to the removable bay and
circumvent any possible cable problems.

And even if you did need to get another cable for the test, that is
well worth doing because its very likely what is corrupting the MFT.

It is not very likely. There is no evidence to support that claim. You
have an intense bigotry against Centronic-based removable bays that is
obsessing you.

Think about it. If the Kingwin KPF style bays I am using are such crap
as you make them out to be, why are they still on the market? Kingwin
is still in business, they are still offering that style bay and I
never hear any complaints about them on this forum or any other.

Why would the removable bay corrupt an NTFS partition only at boot
time? I have never experienced a corrupt NTFS partition while running.

But I plan on doing this test anyway, just to eliminate the
possibility however remote it may be.

I'd make sure it was a proper legal ATA cable too,
a proper 80 wire flat ribbon cable of legal length. No
point in doing the test with a known non standard cable.

I have stated several times that I have an official ATA133 80-wire
ribbon cable. It has the blue connector on one end to ensure proper
orientation for CS.

All that means is that the OS hasnt noticed it until boot time.

Precisely.

However if the filesystem is corrupt at run time, how could it even
function?

No it doesnt need to to just CHECK for corruption,
only for FIXING any corruption seen.

That only happens at boot time.

You dont need one, chkdsk can do that fine.

But I have to reboot to run chkdsk.

That remains to be seen. You've got one hell
of a capacity for refusing to do the obvious tests.

Please stop with the finger wagging. You are not my wife.

Thats just the excuse for the bone headedness.

That's an ad hominem.

I know exactly why you resort to insults. It's because of your
justifiable inferiority complex, which goes with your incredible
overblown ego.

You like to think of yourself as God's gift to computers. You are very
good at it and can solve most problems thrown at you. But every once
in a while you take on a problem, like this one, which you cannot
solve easily. That causes your brittle ego all sorts of pain because
you do not know how to deal with frustration.

That's because your ego is far too overblown for your own good. The
only way you have to cope with this pain and frustration caused by
your justifiable inferiority complex (caused by your overblown ego not
being able to solve every problem you encounter) is to blame someone
for the problem instead of just admitting that you can't solve the
problem immediately.

What you need to do is grow up and accept the fact that you are not
superman when it comes to computers. Accept that there are problems
that you cannot solve immediately.

Yours is the curse of an academic who has to maintain an overblown ego
in front of students. You cannot allow them to know you are not
superman, or you will lose your credibility. However, this insane mind
set you have developed over the year spills over into private life,
like on this forum.

Now let's see what inane defense you put up for this analysis.



--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

That would seem to indicate that its actually disk activity that
produces the corruption,

I use three identical WD 80 GB drives which I have tested in so many
ways that they are known to be good. I ran a full SpinRight on each of
them overnight. They check out perfectly.

If it were the disks why can I go as long as a week without any
problems?

supporting the possibility that is just
something as basic as the removable drive tray thats the problem.

Why would the removable bay corrupt an NTFS partition only at boot
time? I have never experienced a corrupt NTFS partition while running.

There clearly isnt any other app involved
when an ImPerfect Disk run corrupts the drive.

Bet its the removable drive bay or the cable.

Why would the removable bay corrupt an NTFS partition only at boot
time? I have never experienced a corrupt NTFS partition while running.

But I plan on doing this test anyway, just to eliminate the
possibility however remote it may be.

I dont believe that claim about 2K, essentially because clones work
fine for others without that abortion involving Win98SE fdisk /mbr

You are wrong again.

Disk Signature Conflict On Identical Clone Drives

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.htm

What are you doing the cloning with again ?

Acronis True Image. I have a boot CD and it runs the clone offline.

Not clear what you mean by that last.

I always have two clone disks in archive since I have three identical
disks. One is very recent and the other is less recent.

Or that either.

If I get a corrupt disk that cannot be repaired with the automatic
chkdsk that runs at boot time, I have to mount it as D:. So I use the
most recent clone as the boot disk in C:. But they have the same
signature, so get a BSOD. That's why I have to use Win98SE to replace
the first 4 bytes of the signature with zeros, which forces Win2K to
remount it internally.

Cant really understand what you mean
config wise with those 'archive' comments.

Archive means the disk sits on a shelf away from the computer. That's
why I use removable drive bays.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

And ImPerfect Disk is the obvious thing to use when testing
for corruption, no need to run the normal 2K install for days etc.

I just ran a Google search on "ImPerfect Disk" and got nothing that is
relevant. Where do I get this ImPerfect Disk?

It sounds like just what I need to check out the disk while it is
running. I can set up a Win2K Schedule to run it periodically,
assuming it can be set up to run quietly in background. If it keeps a
log I can take a look when I choose.

--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[kony]

It is not irrelevant to me. I use my computer in financial
transactions every day, including weekends. I simply cannot stop using
it to run tests.

This idea you have about how valuable your system use is, is
exactly WHY you should never be relying on a system in this
state.

 

[kony]

I passed that by because of the way you stated it:

A few of them would tend to be
HKLM-Software, HKCU-Software, and you mentioned classes so
HKCR.

"A few of them" tells me there are more.

Yes that's quite possible.
As I already wrote, the key to doing it is NOT what you are
doing, not trying to think on things.
The key is to actually do it.
Actually.
Not think, do.

You are spending hours "thinking" on things then telling us
you haven't the spare time to do what wouldn't have taken
this long.

As already written, this is a bulk process to get most
things working. Some may not work. Maybe you install 5
things again, or maybe you fire up sysinternal's regmon and
see that when you launch the app, it's trying to read a
particular registry entry, so you merely export that parent
key and merge it.

These are basic concepts, which take more time to think on,
than to do. You may not realize this, and that is why I
continually stress not doing what you are doing, which is
anything except the productive path to get it done. I have
been down this road and have advised what addresses your
expressed need, to have minimal time spent, while you
continue to do the opposite, making it the most drawn out
process possible.

Those phrases told me you were not sure, so I didn't take them as a
final statement.

Sure of what? I'm sure you need those keys and I'm sure
it's not guaranteed to make 100% of your apps work. This
was already written, that it is a bulk transfer to get the
majority working, then anything remaining will indicate what
to do next, whether it be more registry entries or files,
but each thing done in turn, NOT trying to do everything at
once is the key.

It is important NOT to do everything at once, because we are
trying to isolate the problem, not duplicate the old
installation perfectly which would naturally reproduce the
problem. Thus, the prudent approach is going to be a
conservative transferral of each type of setting, file, etc.

So what is your final statement about the Registry keys I must
transfer to make this new install work? Is your last statement
correct:

HKCU-software, HKLM- software, HK-Classes-Root.

Is that correct?

Yes, export each of these, but not merging them. Get new
installation working 100% first.

I have not done anything yet because I want to be certain what I am
going to do.

What you need to do is to NOT try to think ahead. It is a
fluid process and you may need adapt to what happens. For
instance, after merging registry keys you might launch an
app and get a message like vbrun*.dll not found (or
similar), meaning you need to install MS's visual basic
package.

So in this example, you might google search;

http://www.google.com/search?q=Windows+visual+basic+download

.... and the first hit is the page to download it, then
install.

Such things may happen, but it's not like you have to do it
for every app, one time and you have the visual basic
support.

Statements like

"A few of them" and "would tend to be" does not cut it with me. I
don't need a merry chase. I will try the "clean install" only when I
am confident that it will work.

Then don't.

You are the one with the problem, and you continue to spend
time, yours and ours, on it. This is the next step and it
doesn't matter if you like to do it, can forsee every step
in a process you are not trying to actually DO, or not,
because you only have 3 options left:

1) Live with the problem. Fine by us, it's not our system
but here you are trying to resolve it, so,

2) Do the clean install. As we've already told you, this
is not a matter of being forced to use the clean install for
your daily work, the clean install is a project done in your
spare time, until you are comfortable with it being finished
enough to revert to using it for your daily activities...
and until then you continue using the current problematic
installation.

3) Quit being so difficult and find an alternate point of
view in another forum. I'm not saying "go away", I'm
suggesting that a forum dedicated to WinXP or 2K might have
someone with more insight into the interworkings of NT/2K/XP
such that they might know a mechanism which causes these
phantom duplicate drive entries. That is, if nothing in
Disk Management is revealing. The stop being difficult part
pertains to DOing it- when someone makes a suggestion you
can't take the "I want comprehensive overview and guarantees
first", attitude, you'll have to take the "roll up sleeves
and try the suggestions", attitude. This should not be a
problem providing you are making backups as you'd claimed,
and must necessarily be doing if you are recovering from
this continual data corruption.

 

[kony]

OK here's what I propose to do to make things easy with my setup.

I will clone the current NTFS boot partition to a new disk but make
the partition only half the disk. I will then create a new install of
Win2K on the second partition. I will mount these as D: (current) and
F: (new).

I will then export the above mentioned keys and save the exports for
later use. I will then copy the new Registry in F: in entirety to the
current partition D:, thereby replacing the entire Registry on D:. I
can copy anything else from the new install F: you think is important.

That is not what I'd suggested, and not what I'd do, but if
it's what you want to do, go ahead- it's a clone so if one
way doesn't work you can always try another.

Then I can import the exported keys into the new Registry on D:.

That way I will have a new install of Win2K without having to copy all
the apps and other stuff.

No, you will have the old install of Win2k, and years worth
of clutter, then merely a slimmer registry. This is
exactly what we wanted to avoid, but maybe you get lucky and
find it (remove the problem) this way regardless.

IMO, the way you're doing it is worse, because with your
proposed method, you are trying to include everything except
for some portions of the registry, you are trying to do
exactly what I advised against, not adding everything (but
the few reg keys) at once so there is no way to see when the
problem resurfaces, if it does- but maybe you will get lucky
and it doesn't.

Either way, make the backups of the clean installation
first, and it'll be easy enough to just restore that and try
again if needed.

I just need to make sure I get the important
parts of the new install copied to the current partition so it behaves
like a new install.

It won't behave like a new install, it'll behave like a
bloated OS and by keeping all those old files you may
inadvertently end up running code you didn't want/need
because it was referenced in the registry keys you added.

The best course is MINIMAL transfer, as much as reasonably
possible without it taking a long time. That would mean not
trying to reuse your current installation files with a new
registry, it would mean attempting to use NOTHING from your
old install except things implicitly necessary to get it to
work.

 

[Rod Speed]

It is not irrelevant to me. I use my computer in financial transactions
every day, including weekends. I simply cannot stop using it to run tests.

Irrelevant to whether there are plenty of tests you can do in that situation.

The problem does not manifest itself for days at a time.

Doesnt mean that you have to run the test drive continuously for that time.

Even you should be able to boot it occasionally over that time.

I would have to install all the apps I normally use to perform a valid test

Wrong when it turns out that you can produce the
corrupted MFT when JUST running ImPerfect Disk.

and I would have to do it for at least 1 week.

Wrong again.

I cannot afford to do that.

You dont need to do that.

Although I do use my computer for recreation
like you, I do use it for finanacial transactions.

So do I thanks.

You do not know what you are talking about.

We'll see...

How could you possibly know what I run or do not run every weekday?

I do know that you are very unlikely to actually run the
100s of apps you claim to have installed every weekday.

I do financial transactions every day of the week.
The most intense activity is during the week.

Irrelevant to how many apps that actually involves.

There is no "if I do". I do run financial
transactions every day of the week.

Irrelevant to how many apps that actually involves.

Why would the removable bay corrupt an NTFS partition only at boot time?

Because even you should have noticed considerable drive activity at boot time.

I have never experienced a corrupt NTFS partition while running.

You dont know that because you have never actually tested that.

ALL you know is that no entrys have showed up in the EV reporting a problem.

That's also why I do not believe that RAM memory is involved.

See above.

Anyway I have run extensive diagnostics on all hard
drives and RAM and nothing shows any signs of failure.

Irrelevant to what is clearly corrupting the DATA in the MFT.

You do not know what you are talking about.

We'll see...

How could you possibly know what I run or do not run every weekday?

I do know that you are very unlikely to actually run the
100s of apps you claim to have installed every weekday.

I do financial transactions every day of the week.
The most intense activity is during the week.

Irrelevant to how many apps that actually involves.

They take quite a few apps to run in entirety.

Irrelevant to how many apps that actually involves.

There is no "if I do". I do need a lot of apps.

Irrelevant to how many apps that actually involves.

Why would the removable bay corrupt an NTFS partition only at boot time?

Because even you should have noticed considerable drive activity at boot time.

I have never experienced a corrupt NTFS partition while running.

You dont know that because you have never actually tested that.

ALL you know is that no entrys have showed up in the EV reporting a problem.

But I plan on doing this test anyway, just to
eliminate the possibility however remote it may be.

Yep, its the only sensible approach because its so easy to do.

In order to reproduce the conditions that the corruption
occurs I need to run the test 24x7 for at least a week.

Wrong. You can just run ImPerfect disk on the clean 2K
install since that does corrupt the MFT on that current install.

I cannot reboot anytime or the test will not be valid.
Wrong.

Now tell me, genius, how am I going to run my apps
on the other partition if I am running the test 24x7?

You dont need to do that, stupid.

If I do that then I just as well do a clean
reinstall and not chase this problem down.

Wrong again.

Again you do not know what you are talking about.

We'll see...

I have two bays connected to one cable. The second one is near
the top of the computer, whereas the drive I mount permanently
is closer to the bottom. I may not have enough cable to reach both.

You dont need to have both connected to the cable to do the test.

However as I said, I have some hardware for mounting 3.5"
drives in 5.25" bays, so I can mount the drive next to the
removable bay and circumvent any possible cable problems.

It is not very likely.

Corse it is.

There is no evidence to support that claim.

Wrong again. When running ImPerfect Disk ALONE corrupts the MFT,
there are only two possibilitys now, either its a ****ed install of 2K that
is the problem, or its a hardware problem, the removable drive bay,
the cable currently being used, or the drive or the controller.

You have an intense bigotry against Centronic-based
removable bays that is obsessing you.

I have seen a number of instances where those have caused
problems, QUITE A FEW OF THEM AT BOOT TIME.

Think about it. If the Kingwin KPF style bays I am using are such
crap as you make them out to be, why are they still on the market?

They arent all used with the same motherboard yours is.

If they work fine with some motherboard and not others,
you'd get that effect, they arent a problem in some configs.

Kingwin is still in business, they are still offering that style bay and
I never hear any complaints about them on this forum or any other.

Even you should be able to find plenty using groups.google.

Why would the removable bay corrupt an NTFS partition only at boot time?

Because even you should have noticed considerable drive activity at boot time.

I have never experienced a corrupt NTFS partition while running.

You dont know that because you have never actually tested that.

ALL you know is that no entrys have showed up in the EV reporting a problem.

But I plan on doing this test anyway, just to
eliminate the possibility however remote it may be.

Yep, its the only sensible approach because its so easy to do.

I have stated several times that I have
an official ATA133 80-wire ribbon cable.

Not recently you havent. Even you should have noticed that
I do comment on quite a few system configs over that time.

It has the blue connector on one end to ensure proper orientation for CS.

However if the filesystem is corrupt at run time, how could it even function?

There's plenty of blemishes that still allow it to function.

It was designed to be that robust.

That only happens at boot time.
Wrong.

But I have to reboot to run chkdsk.

No you dont.

Please stop with the finger wagging. You are not my wife.

Go and **** yourself.

That's an ad hominem.

<reams of your puerile shit flushed where it belongs>

Grow up.

 

[Rod Speed]

I use three identical WD 80 GB drives which I have tested in
so many ways that they are known to be good. I ran a full
SpinRight on each of them overnight. They check out perfectly.

Irrelevant to that point.

If it were the disks

I didnt say it was.

why can I go as long as a week without any problems?

You'll find out when you identify what is producing the corruption.

Because it clearly cant be one of the other apps.

Why would the removable bay corrupt an NTFS partition only at boot time?

Because even you should have noticed considerable drive activity at boot time.

I have never experienced a corrupt NTFS partition while running.

You dont know that because you have never actually tested that.

ALL you know is that no entrys have showed up in the EV reporting a problem.

Why would the removable bay corrupt an NTFS partition only at boot time?

Because even you should have noticed considerable drive activity at boot time.

I have never experienced a corrupt NTFS partition while running.

You dont know that because you have never actually tested that.

ALL you know is that no entrys have showed up in the EV reporting a problem.

But I plan on doing this test anyway, just to
eliminate the possibility however remote it may be.

Yep, its the only sensible approach because its so easy to do.

You are wrong again.

We'll see...

Disk Signature Conflict On Identical Clone Drives

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.htm

Doesnt say anything like your claim above.

Acronis True Image. I have a boot CD and it runs the clone offline.

I always have two clone disks in archive since I have three
identical disks. One is very recent and the other is less recent.

OK, I realised that you had that many physical drives,
just wouldnt have called that an archive myself.

I just meant the use of the word 'archived' there.

 

[Citizen Bob]

This idea you have about how valuable your system use is, is
exactly WHY you should never be relying on a system in this
state.

I have two clones, and I know how to recover. That gets me by.

I make sure that I have at least one archive disk (disk on the shelf)
that works. The way I know it works is I reboot it and if it works I
immediately clone it, then I put it on the shelf. Then I boot the
clone I just made and if it works too I know the original I just put
on the shelf works.

If something in that sequence goes wrong, I immediately fix it. For
example if the clone is broken, I fix it and use it to fix the source
from which it is made, then I start over with the source disk and redo
the above procedure.

Yeah, I know - it's a pain in the ass. That's why I am willing to try
your "clean install" procedure after I make damn sure it is going to
work.



--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

Doesnt mean that you have to run the test drive continuously for that time.
Even you should be able to boot it occasionally over that time.

I have done that as a test - reboot an uncorrupt disk several times
during the day. That's exactly what I did with both the new FAT32 and
the new NTFS I made the other day. Both passed the test every time.

I did not run the FAT32 for a week so I will not know if it would have
worked. I may go back to FAT32 when I figure out what would happen if
one of my DVD applications built a temp file that is larger than 4 GB.
For all I know, that never happens.

The main reason I went back to NTFS was a comment you made (actually
it was one of your famous pontifications) that if I converted the
FAT32 to a new NTFS filesystem it would not get corrupted.
Unfortunately you were wrong, because when I let the system go about 3
days between reboots, it got corrupted.

I can convert over to FAT32 again (I can do it in my sleep now).

Wrong when it turns out that you can produce the
corrupted MFT when JUST running ImPerfect Disk.

Wrong again.

You are assuming that the corruption occurs while running instead of
when I shut down for a reboot. There is no evidence to support that.

I do know that you are very unlikely to actually run the
100s of apps you claim to have installed every weekday.

That does not mean I do not run many of them.

Because even you should have noticed considerable drive activity at boot time.

Actually I suspect the corruption occurs at shutdown. I even tried
disabling the write thru cache but it did not help. Then I tried
setting the Registry key that tells Win2K to do a cleanup of the
system files at shutdown, but that did not work either.

You dont know that because you have never actually tested that.
ALL you know is that no entrys have showed up in the EV reporting a problem.

I agree and that's why I will run ImPerfect Disk when you tell me
where to get it.

Irrelevant to what is clearly corrupting the DATA in the MFT.

Is that where Win2K keeps the so-called "security descripters"?

BTW, when a corrupt disk occurs and Win2K runs chkdsk at boot time
automatically, the repair is almost always the same, which seems to
indicate that whatever is causing the corruption is almost always the
same thing.

When chkdsk at reboot is unable to clean up the mess (and I get a
BSOD), or I get a BSOD before it even gets to run chkdsk - and I have
to mount the disk as D: to run chkdsk from inside Win2K, the repair is
considerably more extensive. Chkdsk fills several screens with repair
comments, most of which is fixing security descripters.

I have run System File Checker (SFC) a couple of times in the outside
chance that I had a virus. I have swept the disk several times with
Ad-Aware and Avast. No viruses detected.

Because even you should have noticed considerable drive activity at boot time.

Yes, but there is even more disk activity when I am running yet there
is no indication of disc corruption.

Actually that is not completely true. There was a brief period when
the system would reboot itself while running. I thought it could be
from a corrupt disk during run time. But it did not run chkdsk when it
rebooted and there was no EV record about a corrupt NTFS volume. I
even forced chkdsk on reboot and nothing was wrong.

But that random rebooting went away months ago and I have never
experienced it since.

Yep, its the only sensible approach because its so easy to do.

But first I want to run ImPerfect Disk.

Wrong again. When running ImPerfect Disk ALONE corrupts the MFT,
there are only two possibilitys now, either its a ****ed install of 2K that
is the problem, or its a hardware problem, the removable drive bay,
the cable currently being used, or the drive or the controller.

You want me to run ImPerfect Disk by itself? I can do that overnight
for 12 hours.

I have seen a number of instances where those have caused
problems, QUITE A FEW OF THEM AT BOOT TIME.

Then I need to connect the boot disk directly. I would be very happy
of that turns out to be the problem because I can work around it with
my cloning system. I would have to tell the BIOS to boot off of a disk
in the removable bay so the direct-connected one is D: and therefore I
can run chkdsk on it from inside Win2K.

There's plenty of blemishes that still allow it to function.

It was designed to be that robust.

Especially since I am running a 2 GB pagefile in memory. I still think
it's during shutdown that the problem occurs. If I had the time and
patience, I would take every disk I shutdown and before I rebooted it,
I would mount it as D: so I could run chkdks on it. That way I would
find out if the problem occurs at reboot. But that is a lot of work
and I would rather dedicate my limited resources to things that are
more direct.

No you dont.

How do you propose to run chkdsk without rebooting or without
remounting the disk as D:?

Go and **** yourself.

Jeez, you can sure disk it out, but you can't take it. That's a sure
sign of a brittle overblown ego.

<reams of your puerile shit flushed where it belongs>

Jeez, you can sure disk it out, but you can't take it. That's a sure
sign of a brittle overblown ego.

Grow up.

You grow up - you need to a lot more than me.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

Because even you should have noticed considerable drive activity at boot time.

My vote is that the corruption occurs during shutdown, when Win2K
writes the memory-resident part to the system files, the pagefile and
the MFT.

Doesnt say anything like your claim above.

It explains why I must use Win98SE fdisk to clear the signature.

OK, I realised that you had that many physical drives,
just wouldnt have called that an archive myself.

It's shorter than "removable disk I put on the shelf".

I just meant the use of the word 'archived' there.

You speak Oz English, which is like Pom English. I speak Real English,
the same as most of the world's computers. The Real English meaning of
"archive" is found in an Real English American dictionary like
Websters Online:

archive: the material preserved


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

Yes that's quite possible.
As I already wrote, the key to doing it is NOT what you are
doing, not trying to think on things.
The key is to actually do it.
Actually.
Not think, do.

I do not have time to run around on merry chases. Either I know what I
am going to do has a good chance of success or I pass it by.

You are spending hours "thinking" on things then telling us
you haven't the spare time to do what wouldn't have taken
this long.

I am doing that in hope of running this problem down. I am confident
that you experts will come across something along the way that points
us to the problem. We already have a lot of data, but there are a
couple things still missing.

As already written, this is a bulk process to get most
things working. Some may not work. Maybe you install 5
things again, or maybe you fire up sysinternal's regmon and
see that when you launch the app, it's trying to read a
particular registry entry, so you merely export that parent
key and merge it.

I just as well reinstall Windows and all my apps as do that.

These are basic concepts, which take more time to think on,
than to do. You may not realize this, and that is why I
continually stress not doing what you are doing, which is
anything except the productive path to get it done. I have
been down this road and have advised what addresses your
expressed need, to have minimal time spent, while you
continue to do the opposite, making it the most drawn out
process possible.

You must think I sit around looking for things to do. That is not the
case. I am always busy with something.

If I had more confidence that this Registry stunt of yours would
really work, then I would give it a try. But it sounds like you are
just throwing shit on the wall in the outside chance it will work,
maybe. I need more confidence before I embark on a long project such
as we discussed.

My problem with what you propose - exporting three Registry keys - is
that the Registry has a lot more configuration information that is
specific to applications than just 3 keys. If I don't export that,
then I am not going to get a "clean install", as you call it. The
search for more keys could take days. Then I could leave behind some
keys that I do not discover are missing until months later, in which
it is too late to go back and export them because the apps have
changed their configuration and the exported keys do not have that
information.

Whoever came up with that Registry crap should be executed so his
screwed up genes do not contaminate the human race. People do not have
this kind of nightmare to deal with on UNIX, because configurations
are file-based. It is much easier to deal with a flat file than a data
base.

Sure of what? I'm sure you need those keys and I'm sure
it's not guaranteed to make 100% of your apps work. This
was already written, that it is a bulk transfer to get the
majority working, then anything remaining will indicate what
to do next, whether it be more registry entries or files,
but each thing done in turn, NOT trying to do everything at
once is the key.

It is important NOT to do everything at once, because we are
trying to isolate the problem, not duplicate the old
installation perfectly which would naturally reproduce the
problem. Thus, the prudent approach is going to be a
conservative transferral of each type of setting, file, etc.

That makes more sense than your earlier terse comments. But it still
involves a lot of work chasing after things that I know nothing about.

Yes, export each of these, but not merging them. Get new
installation working 100% first.

Of course.

What you need to do is to NOT try to think ahead. It is a
fluid process and you may need adapt to what happens. For
instance, after merging registry keys you might launch an
app and get a message like vbrun*.dll not found (or
similar), meaning you need to install MS's visual basic
package.

So in this example, you might google search;

http://www.google.com/search?q=Windows+visual+basic+download

... and the first hit is the page to download it, then
install.

I kept every app and its support files in a ZIP directory. However if
I did have to reinstall, I would consider getting the latest version
so I can at least be updated.

you only have 3 options left:

You left out going back to a FAT32 system and hoping none of my apps
ever builds a 4 GB file.

Which is what I may do because I never really tested it.

In fact that is exactly what I am going to do before I do anything
else. I can do a FAT32 conversion in my sleep, so it's no big deal. I
actually have the last one but it is dated by now so it would be
better just to make one with this current version of the operating
system and applications. I have installed a lot of new stuff for my
JP1 project I am working on now, including an update of Java.

Let's run the FAT32 for a full week or two and see what happens. I
realize you don't care for FAT32 because it can lead to lost files.
But that's with Win9x or WinME, not Win2K.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

That is not what I'd suggested, and not what I'd do, but if
it's what you want to do, go ahead- it's a clone so if one
way doesn't work you can always try another.

No, you will have the old install of Win2k, and years worth
of clutter, then merely a slimmer registry. This is
exactly what we wanted to avoid, but maybe you get lucky and
find it (remove the problem) this way regardless.

IMO, the way you're doing it is worse,

I agree. Forget I mentioned it. If I do a clean install I will have to
do it your way to avoid carrying over any contamination.

However, I would rather just do a new install including all my apps
than to go thru all those contortions. That would guarantee no
contamination.

Of course if I did it that way I would first copy over the Profiles
and install a minimum number of apps to keep productive for my most
important projects. The other stuff I would have to put on hold.

But them if I do that, why not install XP Pro and use its wizard to
move everything from Win2K. I suppose I can learn to live with XP if I
use the compatibility mode. I was wanting to wait for Vista but I
never install a new version of Windows without the first SP out and
tested, and that could be a couple years with Vista. Therefore I
should consider XP for the interim. My son has been running XP for
years and he likes it, so it can't be all that bad.

Then I can slowly install my other apps, taking the opportunity to
upgrade them as I install each one.

It sounds like a plan, but first I want to squeeze the last bit of
life out of Win2K. That's why I am going to convert back to FAT32 and
give it a chance to hang itself by running it a couple weeks.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Rod Speed]

I have two clones, and I know how to recover. That gets me by.

For now, until the MFT gets so corrupted that even chkdsk cant
save you and you lose whats happened since the last clone.

I make sure that I have at least one archive disk (disk on the shelf)
that works. The way I know it works is I reboot it and if it works I
immediately clone it, then I put it on the shelf. Then I boot the
clone I just made and if it works too I know the original I just put
on the shelf works.

Pity about what you do on that system since you do that.

If something in that sequence goes wrong, I immediately fix it.

Remains to be seen if that is always possible.

For example if the clone is broken, I fix it and use it to
fix the source from which it is made, then I start over
with the source disk and redo the above procedure.

Yeah, I know - it's a pain in the ass. That's why I am willing to try your
"clean install" procedure after I make damn sure it is going to work.

We'll see...

 

[Rod Speed]

I have done that as a test - reboot an uncorrupt disk several times
during the day. That's exactly what I did with both the new FAT32 and
the new NTFS I made the other day. Both passed the test every time.

Doesnt prove much about a problem that you claim can take a week to manifest.

I did not run the FAT32 for a week so I will not know if it would
have worked. I may go back to FAT32 when I figure out what
would happen if one of my DVD applications built a temp file
that is larger than 4 GB. For all I know, that never happens.

Digital TV capture cards will do that, guaranteed.

The main reason I went back to NTFS was a comment you made
(actually it was one of your famous pontifications) that if I converted
the FAT32 to a new NTFS filesystem it would not get corrupted.

I never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

Unfortunately you were wrong,

Nope, because I never ever said anything
even remotely resembling anything like that.

because when I let the system go about
3 days between reboots, it got corrupted.

All that proves is that the fault has nothing
to do with the file system being used.

I can convert over to FAT32 again (I can do it in my sleep now).

Must be one of those rocket scientist boneheads.

You are assuming that the corruption occurs while
running instead of when I shut down for a reboot.

Nope, that claim you made shows that it cant be
a specific app thats corrupting the MFT since you
claimed that you saw that corruption before running PD.

That is one possibility completely eliminated.

There is no evidence to support that.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

That does not mean I do not run many of them.

Never ever said it did.

Actually I suspect the corruption occurs at shutdown. I even
tried disabling the write thru cache but it did not help. Then I
tried setting the Registry key that tells Win2K to do a cleanup
of the system files at shutdown, but that did not work either.

And I have told you how to prove whether
its just bootup or shutdown thats the problem.

I agree and that's why I will run ImPerfect Disk when you tell me where to get it.

Pathetic, really.

Is that where Win2K keeps the so-called "security descripters"?

BTW, when a corrupt disk occurs and Win2K runs chkdsk
at boot time automatically, the repair is almost always the
same, which seems to indicate that whatever is causing
the corruption is almost always the same thing.

It would be a hell of a lot more surprising if it wasnt.

When chkdsk at reboot is unable to clean up the mess (and I get a
BSOD), or I get a BSOD before it even gets to run chkdsk - and I have
to mount the disk as D: to run chkdsk from inside Win2K, the repair is
considerably more extensive. Chkdsk fills several screens with repair
comments, most of which is fixing security descripters.

I have run System File Checker (SFC) a couple of times in
the outside chance that I had a virus. I have swept the disk
several times with Ad-Aware and Avast. No viruses detected.

It wont be a virus.

Yes, but there is even more disk activity when I am running yet
Wrong.

there is no indication of disc corruption.

You dont know that because you have never actually tested that.

ALL you know is that no entrys have showed up in the EV reporting a problem.

Actually that is not completely true. There was a brief period when
the system would reboot itself while running. I thought it could be
from a corrupt disk during run time. But it did not run chkdsk when it
rebooted and there was no EV record about a corrupt NTFS volume.
I even forced chkdsk on reboot and nothing was wrong.

But that random rebooting went away months
ago and I have never experienced it since.

Unlikely to be relevant.

But first I want to run ImPerfect Disk.

Pathetic, really.

You want me to run ImPerfect Disk by itself?

Nope, I want you to connect the boot drive directly, and run PD
repeatedly and see if you get any corruption of the MFT when you do that.

I can do that overnight for 12 hours.

It would be a better test to check for corruption of the MFT after each PD run.

Then I need to connect the boot disk directly.

What I said months ago.

I would be very happy of that turns out to be the problem because
I can work around it with my cloning system. I would have to tell the
BIOS to boot off of a disk in the removable bay so the direct-connected
one is D: and therefore I can run chkdsk on it from inside Win2K.

Pointless worrying about what to do until you
work out what is producing the corruption.

Especially since I am running a 2 GB pagefile in memory.

Fark. What else are you doing like that that you havent even mentioned ?

I still think it's during shutdown that the problem occurs. If I had
the time and patience, I would take every disk I shutdown and
before I rebooted it, I would mount it as D: so I could run chkdks
on it. That way I would find out if the problem occurs at reboot.
But that is a lot of work and I would rather dedicate my limited
resources to things that are more direct.

Doesnt matter when it happens, what matters is what is causing it.

How do you propose to run chkdsk without
rebooting or without remounting the disk as D:?

You cant actually be THAT stupid.

Jeez, you can sure disk it out, but you can't take it.

I can take it fine, I choose to tell you go and ****
yourself when you try puerile stuff like that.

<reams of your puerile shit flushed where it belongs>

 

[Rod Speed]

My vote is that the corruption occurs during shutdown,

Irrelevant whether its shutdown or bootup, what matters is why it happens.

when Win2K writes the memory-resident part
to the system files, the pagefile and the MFT.

It doesnt do that either.

It explains why I must use Win98SE fdisk to clear the signature.

No it doesnt.

It's shorter than "removable disk I put on the shelf".

But less obvious what you meant.

You speak Oz English, which is like Pom English.

Wrong, as always.

I speak Real English,

Wrong, as always.

the same as most of the world's computers. The Real
English meaning of "archive" is found in an Real English
American dictionary like Websters Online:

archive: the material preserved

Pathetic, really.

 

[Rod Speed]

I do not have time to run around on merry chases. Either I know
what I am going to do has a good chance of success or I pass it by.

And spend the NEXT year with your dick in
your hand, just like you did with the last one.

I am doing that in hope of running this problem down. I am
confident that you experts will come across something along
the way that points us to the problem. We already have a
lot of data, but there are a couple things still missing.

Pity you refuse to try what will prove where the problem is.

We aint gunna keep bothering with you for years, you watch.

I just as well reinstall Windows and all my apps as do that.

Yep, anyone with a clue would try a move to XP using the
files and settings transfer wizard and see if you still get the
corruption in that situation, after its been proven that the
problem isnt the removable drive bay and the cable.

Corse you will play silly buggers for another year instead.

You must think I sit around looking for things to do.

Nope, he realises that even a terminal bonehead like you should
be able to grasp that if you havent managed to work out what
is producing the corruption in a YEAR, its time to cut to the chase
and do some VERY basic tests like see what happens with the
drive directly connect and if that turns out to not be the problem
prove whether is a ****ed 2K install.

That is not the case. I am always busy with something.

Wasting your time for a YEAR or more. Having fun ?

If I had more confidence that this Registry stunt of yours
would really work, then I would give it a try. But it sounds
like you are just throwing shit on the wall in the outside
chance it will work, maybe. I need more confidence
before I embark on a long project such as we discussed.

Your problem.

My problem with what you propose - exporting three Registry
keys - is that the Registry has a lot more configuration information
that is specific to applications than just 3 keys. If I don't export that,
then I am not going to get a "clean install", as you call it. The search
for more keys could take days.

Sure beats YEARS.

Then I could leave behind some keys that I do not discover are missing
until months later, in which it is too late to go back and export them

Nope, you can keep that drive with that config on it.

because the apps have changed their configuration
and the exported keys do not have that information.

Pathetic, really.

Whoever came up with that Registry crap should be executed
so his screwed up genes do not contaminate the human race.

Boneheads like you in spades. Pity its too late in your case.

People do not have this kind of nightmare to deal with
on UNIX, because configurations are file-based. It is
much easier to deal with a flat file than a data base.

No one is holding a gun to your head and stopping you from using it.

If they are, call the cops.

That makes more sense than your earlier terse comments. But it still
involves a lot of work chasing after things that I know nothing about.

STILL leave farting about for YEARS for dead.

Of course.

I kept every app and its support files in a ZIP directory.
However if I did have to reinstall, I would consider
getting the latest version so I can at least be updated.

You left out going back to a FAT32 system and
hoping none of my apps ever builds a 4 GB file.

The digital TV card is absolutely guaranteed to do that.

Which is what I may do because I never really tested it.

In fact that is exactly what I am going to do before I do anything
else. I can do a FAT32 conversion in my sleep, so it's no big deal.
I actually have the last one but it is dated by now so it would be
better just to make one with this current version of the operating
system and applications. I have installed a lot of new stuff for my
JP1 project I am working on now, including an update of Java.

Let's run the FAT32 for a full week or two and see what happens.
I realize you don't care for FAT32 because it can lead to lost files.
But that's with Win9x or WinME, not Win2K.

Pathetic, really.