c# is a good way to learn c

  • Thread starter Thread starter Montrose...
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Olaf Baeyens poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
CBuilder is as bad as Visual C++.
Click to expand...

What is CBuilder? If you mean C++ Builder by Borland, I disagree. It is
even worse than Visual C++ (unless you use only the compiler and stick to
true C++ without those stupid Borland extensions.)
It is very rewarding if you want to impress your fellow C/C++ programmers
with your knowledge.

But it is not very rewarding if you have a deadline and must add new
features because they forgot to tell me. And I have to explain to the
customer that adding this one stupid button will take a few weeks.
Click to expand...

Oh, come off it. In gtk+, for example, that would be the work of a few
minutes, not a few weeks.
C/C++ in it's current state just misses all the necessary building blocks
needed to have something functional in a day or 2. (compared to C#)
Click to expand...

Bullshit, pure and simple. Absolute bullshit. Although C# might be more
protective of fresh new coders who don't yet value their craft.
 
Sean Hederman poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
[Snip]
The Linux kernel is nothing but C, for example. Bare gtk+ is nothing but
C. Yet, from this apparently barren ground, you get a sea of software.
Click to expand...

Yes but the Linux kernel is also based on a 40-year old architecture, so I
suppose writing it in a 33-year old programming language makes a certain
sick kind of sense...
Click to expand...

You MVPs sure are a bunch of know-nothings, aren't you?
The thing is that C has it's place, but it's certainly not every place. If
you were to tell me that I should write business solutions using C, I'd
have to ask what you were smoking.
Click to expand...

Now, at last, a glimmer of sense. C isn't for everything, of course. Even
C++ isn't for everything. You probably want, say, Visual COBOL.
For me it depends on how recently I used it. Memory has a way of fading
the frustration ;D
Click to expand...

Odd. I found C to be a breath of fresh air after having to endure the
limitations of the old-style Pascal. I've found C++ to be a renewed breath
of fresh air, with some incredible support libraries, whether open source or
closed source.

I'm not tied to one company's view of what a language should be.

At this stage in my career, C++ is easy.

I'm sure C# has some merit, but with C/C++ making it easy for me to code
cross-platform, I don't feel any compelling need to look at C#. I'll wait
until someone has a project that demands I use it.
 
Olaf Baeyens poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
Actually he is right, not to delve too deep into C. He is not referring
to C++!
Click to expand...

Nor was I. Win32 is not C++, it is C.
The problem is that if you learn C first then you will have to unlearn
that way of thinking and this is very hard to do. But learn C++/C# first
and then it is much easier to see why C is outdated and hard to keep up
with if your code library gets big and you do not have to unlearn.
Click to expand...

Sure, I agree.
A programmer coming form school should not take too much effort in
outdated languages, because by the time he has a job the new languages
will be far more in demand than the older ones. Unless you want to
specialize in a niche to keep outdated software running. The C population
is getting a lot of grey heir, and are preparing for their pension. ;-)
They are litteraly dying out. :-)
Click to expand...

However, since I learned C first, and, while doing so, took great care to
develop pretty good habits in that language, C++ turned out to be a natural
progression for me.

As for being old, we'll come back to laugh at you for using C# when C++0x is
available, and you're a doddering old man like myself.
 
C# and Java are for those opportunist wimps (those who did not major in
CS or did a 3 month VB course in Brooklyn) who are just happy to jump on
to the Dot Com craze. They are the reason why the commercial software
industry is loaded with inefficient bad code. I have more respect for
COBOL programmer than this bunch of gold-diggers. They would be the one
to jump ship if Microsoft or Sun comes up with the next-big-heap-of-junk.
Linønut said:
Sean Hederman poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:

[Snip]
The Linux kernel is nothing but C, for example. Bare gtk+ is nothing but
C. Yet, from this apparently barren ground, you get a sea of software.
Click to expand...

Yes but the Linux kernel is also based on a 40-year old architecture, so I
suppose writing it in a 33-year old programming language makes a certain
sick kind of sense...
Click to expand...


You MVPs sure are a bunch of know-nothings, aren't you?

The thing is that C has it's place, but it's certainly not every place. If
you were to tell me that I should write business solutions using C, I'd
have to ask what you were smoking.
Click to expand...


Now, at last, a glimmer of sense. C isn't for everything, of course. Even
C++ isn't for everything. You probably want, say, Visual COBOL.

For me it depends on how recently I used it. Memory has a way of fading
the frustration ;D
Click to expand...


Odd. I found C to be a breath of fresh air after having to endure the
limitations of the old-style Pascal. I've found C++ to be a renewed breath
of fresh air, with some incredible support libraries, whether open source or
closed source.

I'm not tied to one company's view of what a language should be.

At this stage in my career, C++ is easy.

I'm sure C# has some merit, but with C/C++ making it easy for me to code
cross-platform, I don't feel any compelling need to look at C#. I'll wait
until someone has a project that demands I use it.
Click to expand...
 
Joe said:
C# and Java are for those opportunist wimps (those who did not major in
CS or did a 3 month VB course in Brooklyn) who are just happy to jump on
to the Dot Com craze. They are the reason why the commercial software
industry is loaded with inefficient bad code. I have more respect for
COBOL programmer than this bunch of gold-diggers. They would be the one
to jump ship if Microsoft or Sun comes up with the next-big-heap-of-junk.
Click to expand...

That's my sentiments exactly!

Most IT processing could be done with greater speed and efficiency and
use far less money and resources if it were done with efficient c code.

Linønut said:
Sean Hederman poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:

[Snip]


The Linux kernel is nothing but C, for example. Bare gtk+ is
nothing but
C. Yet, from this apparently barren ground, you get a sea of software.


Yes but the Linux kernel is also based on a 40-year old architecture,
so I
suppose writing it in a 33-year old programming language makes a certain
sick kind of sense...
Click to expand...



You MVPs sure are a bunch of know-nothings, aren't you?

The thing is that C has it's place, but it's certainly not every
place. If
you were to tell me that I should write business solutions using C, I'd
have to ask what you were smoking.
Click to expand...



Now, at last, a glimmer of sense. C isn't for everything, of course.
Even
C++ isn't for everything. You probably want, say, Visual COBOL.

(I'm a C++ fanboy, by the way.)


For me it depends on how recently I used it. Memory has a way of fading
the frustration ;D
Click to expand...



Odd. I found C to be a breath of fresh air after having to endure the
limitations of the old-style Pascal. I've found C++ to be a renewed
breath
of fresh air, with some incredible support libraries, whether open
source or
closed source.

I'm not tied to one company's view of what a language should be.

At this stage in my career, C++ is easy.

I'm sure C# has some merit, but with C/C++ making it easy for me to code
cross-platform, I don't feel any compelling need to look at C#. I'll
wait
until someone has a project that demands I use it.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Tom Shelton poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:


That would be extremely difficult to prove.
Click to expand...

3 Words - Time To Market.
If I ever have to get some
significant experience with C#, I'll get back to you with my feelings on it.
Click to expand...

Ok - but I doubt you ever will...

By the way, lets play name that language - what language was the
following code block written in (borrowed from MSDN):

public void MakeGreyUnsafeFaster ()
{
Point size = PixelSize;
LockBitmap();

for (int y = 0; y < size.Y; y++)
{
PixelData* pPixel = PixelAt(0, y);
for (int x = 0; x < size.X; x++)
{
byte value =
(byte) ((pPixel->red + pPixel->green + pPixel->blue) / 3);
pPixel->red = value;
pPixel->green = value;
pPixel->blue = value;
pPixel++;
}
}
UnlockBitmap();
}

Yep - that's C#. And what the! It's using pointers!
 
Didn't know there was that much difference.
Thanks for the info. Was going to study C, but now I'll go to C#.
S Barringer
 
Top-posting sig-quoting, "Bob Powell [MVP]"
Thats a good idea. Learn C and make sure that you keep on using 20 year old
technologies.
Click to expand...

C is over 30 years old. It's Microsoft's versions of Windows that are
20 years old.
The job-market is too full anyway.
Click to expand...

Instead of a dime a dozen, we'll be able to purchase MVPs for 8 or 9
cents a dozen! They're still overpriced.
 
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527>

The thing is that C has it's place, but it's certainly not every place. If
you were to tell me that I should write business solutions using C, I'd have
to ask what you were smoking.
Click to expand...

The thing is that nnybody, except those who are sick, will take
technical advice from an Outlook Express user. The thing is that OE
has no place, and certainly no place at all. I have to ask what you
are drinking.
 
Obviously you've never had to build applications for users who assume that
hitting a button more than once will "make the system go faster", or who
complain that your database app is kicking them out every 30 minutes
(screensaver), or who believe that "data entry" means printing out whats on
the screen, filling it out by hand, then giving it to "IT" so they can "put
it in the system".

All first-hand knowledge real life examples :^P
I agree with you that coding GUIs is a piece of cake these days, but
designing them is the real challenge. re: Lotus Notes client
 
Ku Karlovsky said:
The thing is that nnybody, except those who are sick, will take
technical advice from an Outlook Express user. The thing is that OE
has no place, and certainly no place at all. I have to ask what you
are drinking.
Click to expand...

Tried a couple of other newsreaders, didn't like them. Got any good
suggestions that run on Windows?
 
Joe Cole said:
C# and Java are for those opportunist wimps (those who did not major in CS
or did a 3 month VB course in Brooklyn)
Click to expand...

Actually, I did major in CS.
who are just happy to jump on to the Dot Com craze.
Click to expand...

I thought the Dot Com craze was a joke, no sound business model. Similar to
why I'm leery of OSS, I just don't grok the long-term business model. I am
however intellectually honest enough to admit that I might be wrong.
They are the reason why the commercial software industry is loaded with
inefficient bad code.
Click to expand...

A bad programmer is bad no matter what tool they use. Getting all high and
mighty based on the fact that you use a specific language makes as much
sense as saying that you're brighter than Tsiolovsky because you can speak
English.
I have more respect for COBOL programmer than this bunch of gold-diggers.
They would be the one to jump ship if Microsoft or Sun comes up with the
next-big-heap-of-junk.
Click to expand...

Damn right I would! I use the best tool for the job, and don't get tied into
some religious close-minded denial of all other possibilities. Somebody
comes out with a tool that lets me write the programs my customers want and
that's better than my current tools, of course I'd switch. I'd be an idiot
not to.

Here's a hint, sticking with a constant strategy despite changing conditions
is bad idea in nature, in life, and in programming.
Linønut said:
Sean Hederman poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:

[Snip]

The Linux kernel is nothing but C, for example. Bare gtk+ is nothing
but
C. Yet, from this apparently barren ground, you get a sea of software.

Yes but the Linux kernel is also based on a 40-year old architecture, so
I
suppose writing it in a 33-year old programming language makes a certain
sick kind of sense...
Click to expand...


You MVPs sure are a bunch of know-nothings, aren't you?

The thing is that C has it's place, but it's certainly not every place.
If
you were to tell me that I should write business solutions using C, I'd
have to ask what you were smoking.
Click to expand...


Now, at last, a glimmer of sense. C isn't for everything, of course.
Even
C++ isn't for everything. You probably want, say, Visual COBOL.

(I'm a C++ fanboy, by the way.)

For me it depends on how recently I used it. Memory has a way of fading
the frustration ;D
Click to expand...


Odd. I found C to be a breath of fresh air after having to endure the
limitations of the old-style Pascal. I've found C++ to be a renewed
breath
of fresh air, with some incredible support libraries, whether open source
or
closed source.

I'm not tied to one company's view of what a language should be.

At this stage in my career, C++ is easy.

I'm sure C# has some merit, but with C/C++ making it easy for me to code
cross-platform, I don't feel any compelling need to look at C#. I'll
wait
until someone has a project that demands I use it.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Linønut said:
Sean Hederman poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
Click to expand...

Sorry, which XP firewall is that? Did you get my firewall make from my
message header? How do you do that? Oh, right, you can't.
[Snip]
The Linux kernel is nothing but C, for example. Bare gtk+ is nothing
but
C. Yet, from this apparently barren ground, you get a sea of software.
Click to expand...

Yes but the Linux kernel is also based on a 40-year old architecture, so
I
suppose writing it in a 33-year old programming language makes a certain
sick kind of sense...
Click to expand...

You MVPs sure are a bunch of know-nothings, aren't you?
Click to expand...

Can't speak for the MVPs, since I'm not one. Here's a hint: if you're going
to back out of an argument by hiding behind an ad-hominem attack, make sure
that the attacks on the mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language - C is 33 years old.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix - Unix is 35 years old. Sorry about that,
I accidentally used the Multics date.
Now, at last, a glimmer of sense. C isn't for everything, of course.
Even
C++ isn't for everything. You probably want, say, Visual COBOL.
Click to expand...

No thanks. I'd rather stick with C# and C++, they seem to fit all my needs
right now.
Odd. I found C to be a breath of fresh air after having to endure the
limitations of the old-style Pascal. I've found C++ to be a renewed
breath
of fresh air, with some incredible support libraries, whether open source
or
closed source.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I much prefer the C family to Pascal.
I'm not tied to one company's view of what a language should be.

At this stage in my career, C++ is easy.
Click to expand...

Fine, all I'm trying te get across is that C# is even easier, and without a
major reduction in the possible solution domain.
I'm sure C# has some merit, but with C/C++ making it easy for me to code
cross-platform, I don't feel any compelling need to look at C#. I'll wait
until someone has a project that demands I use it.
Click to expand...

If cross-platform is the main requirement, then yes, I'd agree. Either C++
or Java would be my choice in that situation too. However, right now my
customers are Windows users and .NET is a logical choice.
 
Hi Sean,
Tried a couple of other newsreaders, didn't like them. Got any good
suggestions that run on Windows?
Click to expand...

I've used Mozilla for years (currently 1.8b), I have OE on a test box at
work, but there's no comparison for NNTP and email. The nice thing with
Mozilla, is also that you can browse the web safely and without pop-ups
and adverts and ActiveX. The pop-up blocking is much more intelligent
than Microsoft's and it deals with things like Flash in a much more
intuitive way - with Microsoft, it downloads the whole plug-in BEFORE it
askes if you want to install it and often the user doesn't know what it
is or why they're being asked. In Mozilla you just get a square and can
choose to enable it (if you want to view the ad) or just leave it as a
square and get on with the real browsing. The email rendering pane is
also superior to Outlook 2003 in the way it deals with things like HTML
mail, and it's also safer as it has no ActiveX attack surface.

The other nice thing with Mozilla is that it's open source, so if you
need to fix a bug or "enhance" the product, it's just a case of changing
a few lines of code - no need to wait the the mythical "next version"
like wot you do with Microsoft. It also handles CSS2 whereas Microsoft
does not. It also runs on more operating systems than wot Microsoft's
can run on.
 
Tom Shelton poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
3 Words - Time To Market.
Click to expand...

I don't buy that. Not at all. Not when C++ is so easy to use for an
experienced programmer.
Ok - but I doubt you ever will...
Click to expand...

You never know.
public void MakeGreyUnsafeFaster ()
{
Point size = PixelSize;
LockBitmap();

for (int y = 0; y < size.Y; y++)
{
PixelData* pPixel = PixelAt(0, y);
for (int x = 0; x < size.X; x++)
{
byte value =
(byte) ((pPixel->red + pPixel->green + pPixel->blue) / 3);
pPixel->red = value;
pPixel->green = value;
pPixel->blue = value;
pPixel++;
}
}
UnlockBitmap();
}

Yep - that's C#. And what the! It's using pointers!
Click to expand...

So what?
 
Thunderbolt & Lightfoot poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
That's my sentiments exactly!

Most IT processing could be done with greater speed and efficiency and
use far less money and resources if it were done with efficient c code.
Click to expand...

So, what do we have here? A range of languages and a range of opinions.

Which is absolutely as it should be.
 
Sean Hederman poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
Sorry, which XP firewall is that? Did you get my firewall make from my
message header? How do you do that? Oh, right, you can't.
Click to expand...

How many times do I need to point out that this is a simple humorous
followup string as configured in the configuration file of my newsreader:

set followup_string "%r poked his little head through the XP firewall and
said:\n"

Can't speak for the MVPs, since I'm not one. Here's a hint: if you're going
to back out of an argument by hiding behind an ad-hominem attack, make sure
that the attacks on the mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language - C is 33 years old.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix - Unix is 35 years old. Sorry about that,
I accidentally used the Multics date.
Click to expand...

I understand the dates, my friend. It is the juxtaposition of assertions to
which I object:

1. The Linux kernel is not based on UNIX. It was written from scratch with
some knowledge of Minix. It has since acquired a few UNIX traits, but
most true UNIX guys still sneer at the Linux kernel.

2. The C used for Linux is, as far as I can tell, pretty much ISO C99 with
some GNU extensions. Unitl recently you could only use this C, gcc, to
compile the Linux kernel (now you can also use Intel's fine compiler.)
Since ISO C99 was ratified around 1999, and contains much more complexity
and features over the original C (which I first encountered only about 25
years ago), I would hardly say that Linux is written in a 33-year-old
programming language.
No thanks. I'd rather stick with C# and C++, they seem to fit all my needs
right now.
Click to expand...

They can do that. Nonetheless, when you develop for certain project (e.g.
the Linux kernel and the devices drivers) you *will* use C, and it
will be formatted using kernel coding conventions.
Fine, all I'm trying te get across is that C# is even easier, and without a
major reduction in the possible solution domain.
Click to expand...

For better or worse, it is essentially a Microsoft product. Microsoft is
being more reasonable about the openness of C# than Sun is about Java, and
there is one Linux C# project, and C# does have some 3rd party support, as I
understand it.

However, I am loath to give up the STL, for example.
If cross-platform is the main requirement, then yes, I'd agree. Either C++
or Java would be my choice in that situation too. However, right now my
customers are Windows users and .NET is a logical choice.
Click to expand...

So is C++, which is what we use for our Windows users and servers.
 
Linønut said:
So is C++, which is what we use for our Windows users and servers.
Click to expand...
C++ is wonderful for native Windows code, nut, but you better get .NET
if you want to be relevant next week! Being philosophic about linux and
Windows and even languages is fine for argument, but if you want to keep
up with the wave, you have to surf and today that means .NET and that
really means C# or VB.Net. So if you have to walk the plank, which one
do you choose?
 
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