B
Bob I
EX-patriate would be the word that polite folks use.Pete said:
A
Alias
Pete said:
Yes, although since Bush became president, I don't make a big deal out
of it.
How so?
You're kidding, right? Those people could be rehabilitated and/or never
given such draconian long sentences and be reinserted into society as
tax paying citizens, of course!
Can you address the issues or only hurl mocking insults?
Alias
G
Gordon
Tx2 said:
Think you'll find that current releases of (say) Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS just
"work out of the box" and need no more configuring than XP does.....in fact
my experience is that an install of either of those is actually EASIER and
FASTER than XP, AND that includes a fully-functioning office suite. You have
to a) buy Office and b) install it after the XP install...
S
Shenan Stanley
Gordon said:
In Windows XP Basics newsgroup only (not cross-posted)...
(Real or not - who knows - but surprisingly little activity on it..)
Depending on who you are and what you wanted to do with
Windows XP/Windows Vista... All those minimum spec
Windows (XP or Vista) compatible computers started
out outdated.
"Minimum" System Requirements for Windows XP:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314865/
"Minimum" System Requirements for Windows Vista:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/systemrequirements.mspx
"Realistic" System Requirements for Windows XP (IMHO)...
My suggested hardware requirements for Windows XP are (IMHO):
.. 1-gigahertz (GHz) processor or faster
.. At least 512 megabytes (MB) of RAM (1+GB is recommended)
.. At least 30 gigabytes (GB) of available space on the hard disk (40+GB
recommended)
.. 64+MB Video Card
.. Other basic system components as needed/desired by the end-user...
"Realistic" System Requirements for Windows Vista (IMHO)...
My suggested hardware requirements for Windows Vista are:
.. 2.4-gigahertz (GHz) processor or faster
.. At least 1 gigabyte (GB) of RAM (1.5+GB is recommended)
.. At least 60 gigabytes (GB) of available space on the hard disk (100+GB
recommended)
.. 128+MB Video Card
.. Other basic system components as needed/desired by the end-user...
Why the difference? Experience with the operating systems with all sorts of
users.
Sure - there are many users who could do with MUCH less than what I
suggest - there might even be one or two out there who can deal with the
actual minimums - although, those people are very few and far-between now.
If you want a semi-decent experience with all the bells and whistles
everyone else gets to see though - so that if you grow, your computer
doesn't have to *too much* - I'd go with my suggested requirements instead.
Other opinions *will* differ.
J
JohnO
BTW, what does the number of criminals in jail have to do with the
Working people commit far fewer crimes than jobless people.
Working people commit far fewer crimes than jobless people.
A
Alias
JohnO said:
Except, of course, Bush and Cheney's good old boys at Enron.
Alias
G
Gerry Cornell
It would seem to me that the question one has to ask is whether the
letter is a forgery or written by a simpleton?
~~~~
Gerry
~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
letter is a forgery or written by a simpleton?
~~~~
Gerry
~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G
GeneK
Forgery or not, I cannot answer; however, the Microsoft reply gives
legitimate marketing/operating reasons which are true in most regions and
countries.
--
Gene K
It would seem to me that the question one has to ask is whether the
letter is a forgery or written by a simpleton?
~~~~
Gerry
~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
legitimate marketing/operating reasons which are true in most regions and
countries.
--
Gene K
It would seem to me that the question one has to ask is whether the
letter is a forgery or written by a simpleton?
~~~~
Gerry
~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G
Gerry Cornell
Gene
What is spin by Microsoft or true in reality?
The letter implies that the market is less competitive in the rest of
the world than in the US. However, the UK is an extremely competitive
economy and to assert that other economies are all less competitive is
to simplify the situation to such a degree as to make the assertion
meaningless and misleading. Conclusion less competitive market is spin
by Microsoft to deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the
real reason.
The price at which resellers are able to sell is primarily governed by
the price at which they can buy. If the person ( in this case
Microsoft restrict the supply ) to a limited number of resellers or
offer particular resellers preferential terms then this will have a
more material impact on retail prices in a local market than resellers
margins. Control of price in a primitive market will be more easily
achieved than in a sophisticated one such as the UK. Conclusion
resellers margins is spin by Microsoft to deflect criticism from
Microsoft and to conceal the real reason.
Economies of scale achieved through selling to a larger customer base
in the US than in a smaller country. A major cost factor will be
research and development. If Microsoft were to withdraw from the world
market and only sell in the US market would the cost per unit sold go
up or down? The customer base argument only applies to local costs,
which are only a fraction of the total cost outside of the US.
Microsoft are not selling a bulky product e.g a motor car, where
distribution and storage costs may be significant. It is a small high
tech product! Economies of scale are achieved by having a large
customers base; the geographical spread of that customer base, given
that Microsoft have a universal market for their product, is unlikely
to account for a significant price differential. One would expect to
see a significant increase in unit cost were Microsoft to restrict
sales to the US market. Conclusion economies of scale is spin by
Microsoft to deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real
reason.
EU Regulations do not allow a manufacturer to fix retail prices so to
that extent the Microsoft statement is true where they are selling
through a third party. As, however, stated previously the price paid
by local resellers is determined by Microsoft, not by EU Regulations,
so for Microsoft to say "we cannot set prices ourselves" is
disingenuous ( lacking candour ). In other words it is spin!
Taxation does affect resale prices. For comparable years, taxation in
the US has been reported as 29.6% of gross domestic product compared
to 37.4% in the UK. Tax on goods and services is higher in the UK
than in the US. However, given that only 15% of the UK inclusive of
VAT price is tax compared to the US local sales tax, whatever that
might be, it hardly accounts for the retail price differential between
the two countries.
Advancing local Microsoft promotional discounts is a two edged sword.
Fine for those who get them and infuriating for those who do not get
discount. If Microsoft are advancing this as a material reason for
price differentials then they are inviting further investigations by
the authorities for
abusing their position as a monopoly supplier.
Exchange rates. Another red herring! Recently the rate of exchange
between the US Dollar and £ Sterling has moved against the US Dollar
so one would expect the price paid for US goods and services bought by
the UK to fall. This does not seem to be happening. Quite the reverse
is the impression gained so the reason for the price differential
would seem to be something else!
In dissecting the arguments in the letter I am now reaching the
conclusion that the letter is entirely spin.
--
~~~~
Gerry
~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What is spin by Microsoft or true in reality?
The letter implies that the market is less competitive in the rest of
the world than in the US. However, the UK is an extremely competitive
economy and to assert that other economies are all less competitive is
to simplify the situation to such a degree as to make the assertion
meaningless and misleading. Conclusion less competitive market is spin
by Microsoft to deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the
real reason.
The price at which resellers are able to sell is primarily governed by
the price at which they can buy. If the person ( in this case
Microsoft restrict the supply ) to a limited number of resellers or
offer particular resellers preferential terms then this will have a
more material impact on retail prices in a local market than resellers
margins. Control of price in a primitive market will be more easily
achieved than in a sophisticated one such as the UK. Conclusion
resellers margins is spin by Microsoft to deflect criticism from
Microsoft and to conceal the real reason.
Economies of scale achieved through selling to a larger customer base
in the US than in a smaller country. A major cost factor will be
research and development. If Microsoft were to withdraw from the world
market and only sell in the US market would the cost per unit sold go
up or down? The customer base argument only applies to local costs,
which are only a fraction of the total cost outside of the US.
Microsoft are not selling a bulky product e.g a motor car, where
distribution and storage costs may be significant. It is a small high
tech product! Economies of scale are achieved by having a large
customers base; the geographical spread of that customer base, given
that Microsoft have a universal market for their product, is unlikely
to account for a significant price differential. One would expect to
see a significant increase in unit cost were Microsoft to restrict
sales to the US market. Conclusion economies of scale is spin by
Microsoft to deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real
reason.
EU Regulations do not allow a manufacturer to fix retail prices so to
that extent the Microsoft statement is true where they are selling
through a third party. As, however, stated previously the price paid
by local resellers is determined by Microsoft, not by EU Regulations,
so for Microsoft to say "we cannot set prices ourselves" is
disingenuous ( lacking candour ). In other words it is spin!
Taxation does affect resale prices. For comparable years, taxation in
the US has been reported as 29.6% of gross domestic product compared
to 37.4% in the UK. Tax on goods and services is higher in the UK
than in the US. However, given that only 15% of the UK inclusive of
VAT price is tax compared to the US local sales tax, whatever that
might be, it hardly accounts for the retail price differential between
the two countries.
Advancing local Microsoft promotional discounts is a two edged sword.
Fine for those who get them and infuriating for those who do not get
discount. If Microsoft are advancing this as a material reason for
price differentials then they are inviting further investigations by
the authorities for
abusing their position as a monopoly supplier.
Exchange rates. Another red herring! Recently the rate of exchange
between the US Dollar and £ Sterling has moved against the US Dollar
so one would expect the price paid for US goods and services bought by
the UK to fall. This does not seem to be happening. Quite the reverse
is the impression gained so the reason for the price differential
would seem to be something else!
In dissecting the arguments in the letter I am now reaching the
conclusion that the letter is entirely spin.
--
~~~~
Gerry
~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
M
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User
Gerry
Whatever you do, don't blame the British retailers.. bless their little
souls, they are only trying to make an honest living.. and they have been
doing that since time immemorial, screwing the British public for every last
penny for all they are worth, knowing damn well that the average Brit can't
cross a national border easily to get a better deal..
All prices in North America do NOT include federal or state/provincial
taxes, unlike the UK where, unless one is a middleman, ALL prices include
ALL taxes.. if you see a product in your local PC World or wherever, the
price shown is what you will expect to pay.. here in Canada, to buy a $499
dollar Vista Ultimate, you would have to finally pay nearer $600 depending
upon province..
Re economies of scale, the North American market is HUGE.. even Macs sell in
large numbers, way surpassing the 5 user customer base in the UK (two in
Croydon and three suspected Mac users out in the UK wilds (all wanted for
questioning re gross stupidity).. towns with only 10000 inhabitants, large
by Canadian standards (96% of Canadian place names have a population of 300
or less people), have as many as five retailers all selling computers.. UK
residents have zero idea of the economies of scale here in North America..
this is a 'throw away' society, and goods are priced by the retailers
accordingly..
Re. pricing to retailers, there has always been a discount for bulk
purchases.. all manufacturers do it, whether producing software, cigarettes
or candy.. unfair on the small operation? yes of course it is, but when you
go into a store, do you not ask for a discount if buying more than a few
products at one time? I have known Brits that do, and who expect a
discount..
I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do
people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? would these same people go
into a BMW auto dealership and complain that they need some of the features
of a 7 series car but object and cry 'unfair' to the $80,000 price tag? no,
of course not.. if they want a BMW, they buy one within their means and
accept the limitations or go look for some other product that more meets
their needs..
Whatever you do, don't blame the British retailers.. bless their little
souls, they are only trying to make an honest living.. and they have been
doing that since time immemorial, screwing the British public for every last
penny for all they are worth, knowing damn well that the average Brit can't
cross a national border easily to get a better deal..
All prices in North America do NOT include federal or state/provincial
taxes, unlike the UK where, unless one is a middleman, ALL prices include
ALL taxes.. if you see a product in your local PC World or wherever, the
price shown is what you will expect to pay.. here in Canada, to buy a $499
dollar Vista Ultimate, you would have to finally pay nearer $600 depending
upon province..
Re economies of scale, the North American market is HUGE.. even Macs sell in
large numbers, way surpassing the 5 user customer base in the UK (two in
Croydon and three suspected Mac users out in the UK wilds (all wanted for
questioning re gross stupidity).. towns with only 10000 inhabitants, large
by Canadian standards (96% of Canadian place names have a population of 300
or less people), have as many as five retailers all selling computers.. UK
residents have zero idea of the economies of scale here in North America..
this is a 'throw away' society, and goods are priced by the retailers
accordingly..
Re. pricing to retailers, there has always been a discount for bulk
purchases.. all manufacturers do it, whether producing software, cigarettes
or candy.. unfair on the small operation? yes of course it is, but when you
go into a store, do you not ask for a discount if buying more than a few
products at one time? I have known Brits that do, and who expect a
discount..
I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do
people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? would these same people go
into a BMW auto dealership and complain that they need some of the features
of a 7 series car but object and cry 'unfair' to the $80,000 price tag? no,
of course not.. if they want a BMW, they buy one within their means and
accept the limitations or go look for some other product that more meets
their needs..
H
Henry
Hmmmm - U.S. = More capitalist
U.K. = More Socialist
Maybe Microsoft should only sell Vista to the EU governments for distribution to
the masses. One of the keys to this problem is competition.
J
John John
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:
No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information
for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about
US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers
supplied by Shenan)
US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds
Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final
straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The
spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with
shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient
than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive.
It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD
level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper!
John
No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information
for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about
US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers
supplied by Shenan)
US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds
Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final
straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The
spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with
shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient
than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive.
It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD
level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper!
John
M
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User
UK retailers have it all their own way.. isolated from all around them by
language. there is no competition.. a Brit can't go to a Euro country and
pick up English software versions..
the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to those who
seek to control in the UK, and continues to strut its stuff.. Brits were
lead to believe that foreigners were no better than savages, where the
reverse was actually the truth.. but the people in North America fight
back.. I watched a video of a US family staying in the UK. they had rented
an apartment so they could get their own food and taken stockpiles of crisps
and biscuits to nibble on, politely refusing Brit food with the excuse that
they were not hungry.. too funny.. they had been told that the Brits eat
squirrel and other cute rodents.. surely, we ate squirrel only on high days
and holidays, unlike the country folk of Missouri where squirrel, either
shot or in road kill form, is daily fare..
language. there is no competition.. a Brit can't go to a Euro country and
pick up English software versions..
the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to those who
seek to control in the UK, and continues to strut its stuff.. Brits were
lead to believe that foreigners were no better than savages, where the
reverse was actually the truth.. but the people in North America fight
back.. I watched a video of a US family staying in the UK. they had rented
an apartment so they could get their own food and taken stockpiles of crisps
and biscuits to nibble on, politely refusing Brit food with the excuse that
they were not hungry.. too funny.. they had been told that the Brits eat
squirrel and other cute rodents.. surely, we ate squirrel only on high days
and holidays, unlike the country folk of Missouri where squirrel, either
shot or in road kill form, is daily fare..
M
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User
John
Brit price with no tax is UKBP315 against US$379..
Tax rates in the US range between 4 and 9%, I believe, and into double
figures in Ontario and Quebec in Canada, 14 and 16% respectively
Profit margins are smaller in North America generally, and none of us have
any idea how much is paid by the retailers on either continent.. the fact
that the Brit price is so high in the UK does not necessarily reflect the
price paid from the manufacturer..
The UK, along with one or two other member countries, have failed to adopt
the Euro as regular currency, and as such is prone to varying exchange rates
in a way that other member countries may not be..
While I accept that the price difference is large, it is not right to quote
a price without tax against a price with tax, especially where the tax rate
is so high as in the UK..
Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for goods
manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from between 5 and
85%..
Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs..
I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this..
Brit price with no tax is UKBP315 against US$379..
Tax rates in the US range between 4 and 9%, I believe, and into double
figures in Ontario and Quebec in Canada, 14 and 16% respectively
Profit margins are smaller in North America generally, and none of us have
any idea how much is paid by the retailers on either continent.. the fact
that the Brit price is so high in the UK does not necessarily reflect the
price paid from the manufacturer..
The UK, along with one or two other member countries, have failed to adopt
the Euro as regular currency, and as such is prone to varying exchange rates
in a way that other member countries may not be..
While I accept that the price difference is large, it is not right to quote
a price without tax against a price with tax, especially where the tax rate
is so high as in the UK..
Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for goods
manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from between 5 and
85%..
Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs..
I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this..
K
Ken Blake, MVP
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:
"Between"? That's odd. I had always though the UK was in Europe. ;-)
"Between"? That's odd. I had always though the UK was in Europe. ;-)
M
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User
John
As of Sep '98, import duty on software was 25%, so before VAT and import
taxes, that puts Vista price down to around UKBP245 which would include
shipping, handling and insurance..
So let's compare prices using more or less the same criteria..
UK = 245, US = 379..
I also understand that, even if the software CD was produced in the UK, that
it would be subject to import duty because the software itself is of US
origin..
HMG have everything nicely in place.. good luck..
As of Sep '98, import duty on software was 25%, so before VAT and import
taxes, that puts Vista price down to around UKBP245 which would include
shipping, handling and insurance..
So let's compare prices using more or less the same criteria..
UK = 245, US = 379..
I also understand that, even if the software CD was produced in the UK, that
it would be subject to import duty because the software itself is of US
origin..
HMG have everything nicely in place.. good luck..
P
Pete Stavrakoglou
Gerry Cornell said:
Not to hijack this but you've brought up something here. IPods retail for
just about the same price everywhere in the USA. It appears that Apple is
controlling the price and Microsoft had followed suit with their Zune. How
are IPods priced in the EU?
J
John John
Whichever way you calculate it Mike, it comes to about the same numbers
that I gave earlier and that Shenan gave us, 315 Pounds + 17.5 VAT =
370.13 Pounds, what amazon.uk sells it for. My understanding is that
advertized prices in the UK must include the VAT, so the Amazon price
follows the prices you gave.
Without the taxes using the numbers you gave, £315.00 = US$619.41, a
spread of US$240.41. To me, in these days of globalization and free
trade that price difference seems out of whack and difficult to justify.
John
that I gave earlier and that Shenan gave us, 315 Pounds + 17.5 VAT =
370.13 Pounds, what amazon.uk sells it for. My understanding is that
advertized prices in the UK must include the VAT, so the Amazon price
follows the prices you gave.
Without the taxes using the numbers you gave, £315.00 = US$619.41, a
spread of US$240.41. To me, in these days of globalization and free
trade that price difference seems out of whack and difficult to justify.
John
M
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User
John
Read my second post re import duty..
Read my second post re import duty..
John John said:
G
Gerry Cornell
Mike
Inline
That is balloney. Crossing the channel from Dover to Calais with a
Transit Van to stock up with booze for personal consumption is very
popular. Importing cars from Belgium is also popular.
Have you ever lived in the UK?
Prices displayed in retail outlets are normally inclusive of VAT.
Prices quoted in the commercial world are normally on an exclusive of
VAT basis. VAT is neutral in the world of business as, apart from
certain exceptions, any VAT paid on purchases is deducted from VAT
collected on sales and only the difference is paid over to Revenue and
Customs.
Rate of exchange $CAD 1.18 to $US 1.00. $US499 = $CAD589. Where's
your grievance?
I am not an economist but the larger the market does not produce ever
greater economies of scale. Indeed larger organisations can be less
efficient. The population per sq mile in the UK is far higher than the
US so distribution can be more efficient and offers greater
opportunities for cost savings than a a population dispersed over a
large land mass. Of course large parts of Canada are remote with a
very low population per sq mile.
Microsoft is dependent on world wide sales to recoup it's high
research and development costs. If those sales did not exist customers
in the US would need to pay significantly more for Microsoft products.
The debate is about pricing as it impacts on home users. Not many home
users in either country would qualify for bulk discounts. Large
retailers will gain discounts in both countries. No one is complaining
so I fail to see the relevance of your point.
No one in the UK is asking for preferential treatment. We just want to
pay a "fair" price.
--
Regards.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Inline
That is balloney. Crossing the channel from Dover to Calais with a
Transit Van to stock up with booze for personal consumption is very
popular. Importing cars from Belgium is also popular.
Have you ever lived in the UK?
Prices displayed in retail outlets are normally inclusive of VAT.
Prices quoted in the commercial world are normally on an exclusive of
VAT basis. VAT is neutral in the world of business as, apart from
certain exceptions, any VAT paid on purchases is deducted from VAT
collected on sales and only the difference is paid over to Revenue and
Customs.
Rate of exchange $CAD 1.18 to $US 1.00. $US499 = $CAD589. Where's
your grievance?
I am not an economist but the larger the market does not produce ever
greater economies of scale. Indeed larger organisations can be less
efficient. The population per sq mile in the UK is far higher than the
US so distribution can be more efficient and offers greater
opportunities for cost savings than a a population dispersed over a
large land mass. Of course large parts of Canada are remote with a
very low population per sq mile.
Microsoft is dependent on world wide sales to recoup it's high
research and development costs. If those sales did not exist customers
in the US would need to pay significantly more for Microsoft products.
The debate is about pricing as it impacts on home users. Not many home
users in either country would qualify for bulk discounts. Large
retailers will gain discounts in both countries. No one is complaining
so I fail to see the relevance of your point.
No one in the UK is asking for preferential treatment. We just want to
pay a "fair" price.
--
Regards.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~