Best scanning manager program?

  • Thread starter Thread starter T. Wise
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Per Don:
I am *not* talking about *cosmetics* here! It's about going against
virtually every usability and design *principles* out there.

I'm going to retreat from my "Windows UI" statement bc I can't find the standard
that I was going on about.

But, standards aside, has anybody tried to use both Nikon Scan and VueScan?

I'm no rocket scientist, but I've used a *lot* of applications and Nikon Scan
just plain boggled me. I got it to run eventually, but it was an effort. OTOH,
I just fired up VueScan, picked some menu choices, and it worked.
 
Don said:
Please forgive me, but that's just nonsense.

There is nothing to forgive, I do respect anyone's opinions
no matter how different they are from mine.
Vuescan is not complex. It's mind-numbingly simple, assuming a
competent software engineer. Cross-platform development has been going
on for decades and has absolutely nothing to do with Vuescan problems.

Beg to disagree. If handling scanners in multiple platforms
was simple, there would be a LOT more programs like Vuescan.
There is only one so far that covers that many scanners in
that many platforms. There must be a reason for that, it's not
like there isn't a demand for such programs.

To combat this some methodologies actually require programmers (after
an initial design phase) to literally throw away *all* notes and start
from scratch. The idea is you can start fresh with the new knowledge
but without the burden of an existing design.


Sure. But this is not a software house with standards,
methodologies, etcetc. This is a single man band, doing more
than a lot of companies with all those in place. Case in
point: Silverfast, from a much bigger stable. Yet feature-wise,
Vuescan leaves it for dead. Sure, Silverfast has a much more
polished interface for first time users. But just to give
you an example: it took me a while to figure out how the ICE
button worked! Was it on when the button looked like it was
pressed? Or off, because the icon was clear if not depressed?
No feedback whatsoever.

I much prefer Vuescan's option: listbox, pick between "none",
"light", "medium" or "heavy". Call me crazy, but it is clear
and concise...

Note that I am not denying there are problems with the UI.
One that you mentioned before and I particularly dislike
is the quaint way it changes the appearance of other tabs
when I change an option in the current tab. If I go and check
why, it makes sense it did so. But it is disconcerting when
one starts using it and it does that!

Still, I can't afford the time to think about it and contact the
author with alternative ways of handling those issues.
Maybe you could do that? Or have done so and got nowhere?
author just got into ever more trouble. A classic symptom of this is
when bugs proliferate and never go away and perennial unreliability.
Sounds familiar?

Does it ever! Having been on the software business for many years,
I know exactly what you talking about.
But I disagree that there is perennial unreliability there.
It has crashed my system the grand total of twice (and locked up once)
since I started using it. Cripes, Firefox has done so more times
than I care to mention and I keep using it! See what I mean? :)

Not at the same rate and persistence as Vuescan's!

Can't comment there. I'm on my first download of
the product, so I don't have any experience on
bug persistence.

How do you explain the most pedestrian bugs like "broken cropping" or
"0-byte file scan", etc appearing in major version *8*? That's
inexcusable! It indicates massive incompetence and total absence of
any semblance of quality control.

I'm at a loss here. "broken cropping"? It seems to work fine for me.
Sure, the interface is quirky for multiple crops: I'd rather be able
to define and adjust/nudge each crop of a strip myself, rather than
have to fiddle with sliders for borders, gaps, LxW and so on. But
that is a design issue, not a "broken" thing?
"0-byte file scan" also leaves me perplexed. Care to explain
a bit more about this one: haven't hit it.
I know some Vuescan fans will emotionally overreact but it's a simple
statement of fact when I say that I have never seen a program so buggy
and unreliable as Vuescan in my 25+ years in the business.

Obviously you have not been involved with databases!
(DAMHIKT...)
 
HvdV said:
Don wrote: SNIP
That's a pretty strong statement.

It's a pretty silly statement as well. Most people shut-down their
computer via a "Start" button ... Talk about design *principles*, ha,
don't make me laugh.

Bart
 
"broken cropping"? It seems to work fine for me.
Sure, the interface is quirky for multiple crops: I'd rather be able
to define and adjust/nudge each crop of a strip myself, rather than
have to fiddle with sliders for borders, gaps, LxW and so on"

You used to be able to drag the borders to crop each picture in a batch
and vuescan would remember the settings when it scanned. With my
scanner, if you adjust the cropping in batch, Vuescan now cuts off the
borders of your image about 10% on one side and gives you 10% black
nothing on the other side.
 
Sure, and I've seen worse than Vuescan with still a faithful flock of fans.
But still one point for Vuescan: how many cross platform packages do you know
which control as many hardware devices as Vuescan *and* is in the <$100 price
range?

Many, and they cost even less because (coming from Linux) they're
distributed under the GNU license i.e., they're free.

But how relevant is price when a program just plain doesn't work?

When a program is perennially broken (as is the case with Vuescan)
then even 1c is too much to pay for the "pleasure" of fighting bugs,
waiting for "upgrades" (which only make matters worse), and then be
insulted by the author who apparently sends emails to dissatisfied
customers telling them they've been "blacklisted" (whatever that
means?) because they dared to complain publicly!
That's a pretty strong statement.

Yes it is, but the strength of the statement is merely a reflection of
the weakness of the product!

It's simply an objective statement based on verifiable facts because
it's backed up by a long list of specific UI violations. Please see
previous messages and if that's not enough check the archives.
Personally I felt I could get used to it,
but simply liked Silverfast better among others because of the focusing
control.

The top line is the key. If you can *subjectively* get used it and are
willing to tolerate the many Vuescan problems, that's perfectly fine.

However, that does not change (or even address) the *objective* fact
that Vuescan goes against virtually every usability and design
principle out there.
BTW, slickness for a Mac product is *very* important.

We all know that because Mac has always been a case of form over
substance! ;o)

Seriously though, considering how "dictatorial" Apple is about
compliance to its UI I'm a bit surprised a Mac user would be so
tolerant of any deviation from Apple's "UI dogma", let alone the mess
that is Vuescan. But, be that as it may, that's a subjective decision.

Don.
 
It's a pretty silly statement as well. Most people shut-down their
computer via a "Start" button ... Talk about design *principles*, ha,
don't make me laugh.

"But, mom, he does it too!" didn't work for you when you were three
and it sure doesn't work now.

In the interest of full disclosure, Bart is one of the keenest
"defenders" of Vuscan but doesn't use it himself because Vuescan is
too buggy!

See below and then go figure...

Don.
 
Per Don:

I'm going to retreat from my "Windows UI" statement bc I can't find the standard
that I was going on about.

That's OK, you were probably referring to the fact that it uses the
so-called WIMP (windows, icons, menus, pointers - if I remember
correctly). Well, not too many icons in Vuescan but that's the gist...
The thing is, though, there's more to it than that.
But, standards aside, has anybody tried to use both Nikon Scan and VueScan?

I'm no rocket scientist, but I've used a *lot* of applications and Nikon Scan
just plain boggled me. I got it to run eventually, but it was an effort. OTOH,
I just fired up VueScan, picked some menu choices, and it worked.

Every person is different and that's really a subjective reaction.

For example, coming originally from the mainframe world i.e. command
line, I still sometimes condescendingly refer to any windows-based UI
as "pretty pictures". As is the case with every new paradigm,
initially, programmers were obsessed with icons rather than with
actual functionality. For example, it's easier and faster to type in
"delete *.*" than hunt for all the files in an overflowing window.

Anyway, your reaction to NikonScan may have had more to do with a new
paradigm rather than the interface. If that's that case, the knowledge
you acquired there would certain make it easier to grasp the next
scanner program, e.g. Vuescan, at least conceptually. All other things
being equal, the same would probably apply the other way around.

Don.
 
Well, I did try to run both for a time, but eventually gave up and
even stopped updating NikonScan.

That's easy to do because NikonScan is not tripping over itself with
seeming "hourly" updates, like Vuescan does in a desperate attempt to
try and keep up with its bugs but only ends up creating more.

For example, NikonScan 4 only had two updates and, as far as I know,
one outstanding buglet (something with thumbnails, if I remember
correctly) and one annoyance (clipping of negatives).

On the other hand, our current numbering systems are inadequate to
express the total number of Vuescan bugs and updates... ;o)

Don.
 
I'm not talking about things like divide by zero bugs here,

Neither am I. (see below) Divide by zero is not platform specific.
but of bugs
caused for example by invalid programmer assumptions. Such bugs can remain
undetected or worse undiagnosed for years.

Indeed, and (for example) the Vuecan's profile bug of a couple of
years ago is a prime example that multi-platform did not save it from
invalid programmer assumptions.
In a multi platform environment
such bugs have a larger chance of getting detected on one of the platforms
and then fixed for all. This assumes one is using different compilers.

I understand that. It's what NASA does on its vehicles by using 5
different processors and 5 different languages (compilers) performing
the same task. NASA does that to avoid this "cross pollution" of bugs
and then uses "majority decision" when results differ.

But that's not the point I was making. Trying to solve a platform
specific problem inadequately will proliferate to other platforms,
even though it nominally has nothing to do with those other platforms.
IMO you can only make such harsh judgements if you've seen the actual Vuescan
code.

Actually, I *have* seen snippets of Vuescan code. Well, indirectly...

I disassembled Vuescan (a couple of years ago when I evaluated it) to
check how it handled Kodachromes (and then, perhaps, retrofit
individual AG control) but gave up because it was a total mess.

Granted, there are all sorts of caveats attached to such "evaluation",
and I'm aware of most (if not all) of them, but even with that proviso
what I've seen was truly appalling.

However, be that as it may, it's not really necessary to see the code.
When a programmer can't fix a bug for *two years* (e.g. Minolta) and
does so only after someone else posts a solution here then, yes, it's
certainly not harsh to call such a "programmer" (and I use the term
loosely) incompetent!

Add to that endless (often elementary!) "peekaboo" bugs which appear
and disappear with alternate releases! Such a "programmer" can not
only be justifiably termed incompetent, but massively incompetent.
Stated differently my point was that you can't keep a cross platform package
afloat if the code is a mess and you are an incompetent programmer as well.

Evidently! ;o)

And Vuescan is a prime example of that as it sinks ever deeper with
each new "upgrade"! That's exactly my point! When a program in it's
*8th* major version start producing 0-byte files, that's incompetence
beyond words.

Don.
 
There is nothing to forgive, I do respect anyone's opinions
no matter how different they are from mine.

Yes, but there are much more civilized ways of expressing that. Even
though it's not an excuse I was just pressed for time but still felt
uncomfortable with the term. So, thank you for understanding!!
Beg to disagree. If handling scanners in multiple platforms
was simple, there would be a LOT more programs like Vuescan.
There is only one so far that covers that many scanners in
that many platforms. There must be a reason for that, it's not
like there isn't a demand for such programs.

I think the reasons for that are much more mundane. Specifically, two
key ones: market share and native software.

Scanner programs are still a niche market, relatively speaking,
meaning there's no sufficient volume which would make it attractive
for the "big boys" to enter.

But, perhaps more importantly, scanners already come with native
software which is more than adequate for vast majority of users. There
is usually a quick-and-dirty "auto" mode for "civilians" and after
turning all the settings off the "pros" can still get their raw scans.

Indeed, the Vuescan author himself once wrote that he saw these native
programs which came with the scanner as his competition, not
SilverFast.

A scanner program at its most basic is simply data acquisition. And
that's very straightforward. Especially, now that the hardware
interface has been standardized (i.e. USB with even FireWire on the
decline) instead of a myriad of custom "solutions" like those parallel
port scanners of a few years ago.

What's left is image editing (which in my opinion doesn't even belong
in a scanner program but the "civilians" need it). And those image
editing routines are well known and readily available.

So given all that, making a single program access different scanner is
really very elementary.
Sure. But this is not a software house with standards,
methodologies, etcetc. This is a single man band, doing more
than a lot of companies with all those in place.

Yes it's a one man show but that's not the issue.

By the same token, a user could say: I'm not a big company but just a
little guy here scanning my family photos, can I get your software for
free?

Not much sympathy for that now, is there?

Conversely, whether the software is made by one man or a
multinational, in the context of a marketplace it lives or dies based
on what it does or doesn't do.

And there Vuescan fails miserably even if we do cut it some slack.

Even a one man band can check if the software actually scans before
unleashing it on the unsuspecting public!

And when that public complains, instead of fixing it he sends emails
to his users telling them "if you don't like it, delete it" or tells
them they've been "blacklisted" because they *justifiably* complained!
point: Silverfast, from a much bigger stable. Yet feature-wise,
Vuescan leaves it for dead. Sure, Silverfast has a much more
polished interface for first time users.

And that's the key! SiverFast's target audience are "civilians" who
only want a big, single "auto everything" button.

Vuescan, on the other, hand is "scattered" (a reflection of a badly
thrown together "user interface") oscillating between "auto" and
"technical".

What is the point of simply listing many "features" if they simply
don't work, or worse cause damage?
I much prefer Vuescan's option: listbox, pick between "none",
"light", "medium" or "heavy". Call me crazy, but it is clear
and concise...

That's personal preference. By the same token, others may find such
description simplistic and would want a numerical display, or
whatever. But that's not the point...

What I'm talking about is something completely different. Take the
"display refresh" or whatever it's called in Vuescan. I'm referring to
entering a value in the setting and when after each keystroke the
whole screen redraws. Typing too fast causes keystrokes to be
"swallowed" without *any* feedback! So, instead of exposure "50", one
would end up with "5".

Yes, there is a "secret" option to turn the "screen update" off. But
that's a cure worse than the disease!! Now the display has nothing to
do with actual settings currently active. That's positively crazy! And
certainly brakes every UI guideline regarding ergonomics.
Note that I am not denying there are problems with the UI.
One that you mentioned before and I particularly dislike
is the quaint way it changes the appearance of other tabs
when I change an option in the current tab. If I go and check
why, it makes sense it did so. But it is disconcerting when
one starts using it and it does that!

Still, I can't afford the time to think about it and contact the
author with alternative ways of handling those issues.
Maybe you could do that? Or have done so and got nowhere?

I have no interest in Vuescan, whatsoever.

The author is notorious for his short temper and abusive outbursts. In
the three years I've been here he's still the only one to have
actually screamed obscenities...

I gave Vuescan early on because NikonScan did not have Kodachrome
option for my scanner at the time (LS-30). Now it's an LS-50.

Back then it struck me that Vuescan did not have individual Analog
Gain setting. This caused a saga you can read in the archives:

The author's (arrogant) response was "You don't need that!"
(Since then I learned that's his favorite response. Apparently,
initially, Vuescan didn't even have a preview window, and when people
asked for it, that's the response they got... :-/)

Anyway, I did "need that" and the author went through several
contradictory statements starting with "I can't implement individual
AG because it would upset my color balance" and ending with
"implementing individual AG is elementary". Hmmm...!?

That didn't sit well with actual users and they sheepishly started
saying they would like individual AG too, so the author "challenged"
me to come up with a slide to "get to the bottom of this".

I promptly posted one *and* also included a scan where Vuescan
performed well to show both my objectiveness and to prove there was
nothing wrong with the scanner or the installation. (BTW, if you check
the archives the images are still available!)

To make a long story short (too late! ;o)) the author said fixing this
image would be easy. I asked him to provide specific settings (so that
I can't be accused of sabotage and give him a chance to prove me
wrong).

Unable to provide them, he exploded with a tantrum and abusive
language.

When he calmed down he implemented individual AG which Vuescan users
begged him to do for months. The thanks I got from those very users is
that they too started hurling abuse... Go figure...

Anyway, don't take my word for it. It's all in the archives!
Does it ever! Having been on the software business for many years,
I know exactly what you talking about.
But I disagree that there is perennial unreliability there.
It has crashed my system the grand total of twice (and locked up once)
since I started using it. Cripes, Firefox has done so more times
than I care to mention and I keep using it! See what I mean? :)

My Firefox hasn't done that... yet... ;o) but I'm afraid Vuescan *is*
unreliable when I read all the complaints after each new release.

Now, being in the business, I suspect you're using the software
"defensively" i.e. not upgrading just because there's a new version,
as well as keeping a "known good version" backed up "just in case"
whenever you do decide to upgrade - after others have beta-tested it
for you... ;o)

Also, it may very well be that employing such a strategy you have
found a version which serves your requirements, but that's only a one
person's experience.

If we examine Vuescan in its entirety and objectively then the only
conclusion is that it *is* perennially buggy, although you or some
others may have found a combination which satisfies your/theirs
specific requirements.

There's no contradiction between that subjective, narrow definition,
and a generic, objective definition of Vuescan as perennially buggy.
Can't comment there. I'm on my first download of
the product, so I don't have any experience on
bug persistence.

Oh, boy! You're in for a fun time!!! ;o)

Anyway, that explains it! Do check the archives for a litany of
reappearing Vuescan bugs. If you plan to use it, it's certainly in
your interest to do that!
I'm at a loss here. "broken cropping"? It seems to work fine for me.

Yes, there were several threads, over the last 3-4 months where
cropping did not work. Did... Did not... Did... Did not... Etc...
"0-byte file scan" also leaves me perplexed. Care to explain
a bit more about this one: haven't hit it.

Yes, there was one version where the Vuescan would start a scan, and
then huff and puff, only to produce a 0-byte file. Many angry users...

When challenged recently I posted a partial list of various Vuescan
bugs. Considering you just downloaded it this should be "required
reading". Check the archives for the following message:

Subject:
Re: Vuescan 8.2.24, what's new: "Significantly improved infrared
cleaning "?
Obviously you have not been involved with databases!
(DAMHIKT...)

Ha! ;o) And double Ha! ;o)

From IBM mainframe's *logical* IMS (for those in the know the
"logical" bit is important!) to Microsoft's unilateral re-definition
of NULL! And just for the heck of it, another "Ha!" ;o)

Don.
 
"broken cropping"? It seems to work fine for me.

After this reply I expect you will change the subject and accuse me of
"compiling bug reports from newsgroups about a piece of software I
don't use".

Nevertheless, here you go:

So it looks like a serious bug with the cropping system, as you suggest. Don
will say "told you so" -well, he did! Stick to your working version.
Upgrade at your peril!

Don.
 
Don said:
Many, and they cost even less because (coming from Linux) they're
distributed under the GNU license i.e., they're free.
Top 5?
The only comparable (in terms of hardware support and image acquisition type)
product I know is from QED imaging, but that is more expensive. You'd drool
over its GUI though :-)
But how relevant is price when a program just plain doesn't work?

When a program is perennially broken (as is the case with Vuescan)
then even 1c is too much to pay for the "pleasure" of fighting bugs,
waiting for "upgrades" (which only make matters worse), and then be
insulted by the author who apparently sends emails to dissatisfied
customers telling them they've been "blacklisted" (whatever that
means?) because they dared to complain publicly!
Ok, that's bad, maybe the guy needs a holiday.
It's simply an objective statement based on verifiable facts because
it's backed up by a long list of specific UI violations. Please see
previous messages and if that's not enough check the archives.
Hm. You can't conclude from the fact that the GUI is a bit awkward (I guess
many in this newsgroup would agree on 'a bit awkward') that the underlying
code is a mess, in turn leading to many bugs. If vuescan would crash every
session the average user would use it *and* there was solid statistics about
that, then that would be something else.

Coming back to the supposedly poor support, IMO a healthy company can't
provide personal support for a $50 product. I wonder what the total revenue
is for Vuescan, but it seems not enough to hire a second programmer, let
alone a support guy. With more devices to support, more lines of code to
maintain, more angry customers, that is a serious problem.
We all know that because Mac has always been a case of form over
substance! ;o)

Seriously though, considering how "dictatorial" Apple is about
compliance to its UI I'm a bit surprised a Mac user would be so
Me a Mac user? Only for scanning!
tolerant of any deviation from Apple's "UI dogma", let alone the mess
that is Vuescan. But, be that as it may, that's a subjective decision.

Sure, Apple used to be a "dictatorial", to be avoided at all costs. But now
they're doing Unix they are actually quite nice to developers. They still
employ loathsome marketing people, but the machines and OS are fine.

-- Hans
 
Don, you don't need to respond to *each* comment posted with a new
reply. You've now taken over an entire page of comments and anyone
tuning into the thread now would only see your comments.

Don wrote:
"Yes, there is a "secret" option to turn the "screen update" off. But
that's a cure worse than the disease!! Now the display has nothing to
do with actual settings currently active. That's positively crazy! And
certainly brakes every UI guideline regarding ergonomics."

I complained about this 8 months ago or so. I believe this is fixed
and isn't a problem any longer. I regularly enter in exposure values
manually and it doesn't refresh while you're typing anymore. That was
annoying!
 
Don said:
Indeed, and (for example) the Vuecan's profile bug of a couple of
years ago is a prime example that multi-platform did not save it from
invalid programmer assumptions.
Detecting a bug early is of course only useful if you do something about it.
But that's not the point I was making. Trying to solve a platform
specific problem inadequately will proliferate to other platforms,
even though it nominally has nothing to do with those other platforms.
Sure, in that case you'd be better off looking for another job.
I disassembled Vuescan (a couple of years ago when I evaluated it) to
check how it handled Kodachromes (and then, perhaps, retrofit
individual AG control) but gave up because it was a total mess.
Maybe he was using a very good compiler which does all kinds of
transformations on the code...
Granted, there are all sorts of caveats attached to such "evaluation",
and I'm aware of most (if not all) of them, but even with that proviso
what I've seen was truly appalling.
What was it then what was so appalling?
However, be that as it may, it's not really necessary to see the code.
When a programmer can't fix a bug for *two years* (e.g. Minolta) and
does so only after someone else posts a solution here then, yes, it's
certainly not harsh to call such a "programmer" (and I use the term
loosely) incompetent!
(see my other post) I think it is more likely he can't handle the workload.
What in this case might also play a role is that (as he says on his web site)
he doesn't get along with Minolta. Happens, but not so smart to state that in
public.
Evidently! ;o)

And Vuescan is a prime example of that as it sinks ever deeper with
each new "upgrade"! That's exactly my point! When a program in it's
*8th* major version start producing 0-byte files, that's incompetence
beyond words.

You say quality wise it is going under, with the suggestion it is also
going under commercially. Could be, but from its popularity in this newsgroup
I gather it is not. Does anyone know how large the Vuescan installed base is
and how many licenses are sold each year? Same for Silverfast?

-- Hans
 
Don apparently said,on my timestamp of 10/09/2005 5:16 AM:
Yes, but there are much more civilized ways of expressing that. Even
though it's not an excuse I was just pressed for time but still felt
uncomfortable with the term. So, thank you for understanding!!

Hey, no sweat! I get my feathers ruffled every once in a
while as well, no one is perfect.
Indeed, the Vuescan author himself once wrote that he saw these native
programs which came with the scanner as his competition, not
SilverFast.

Well, yes. I can see that. However I think Vuescan has one major
advantage for folks like me who run Windows and Linux: it runs
everywhere. The scanner makers are still in the "windows-only" era
with a few, far and between, providing Mac versions. Never mind that
Linux has nowadays a larger market share than Macs. Ah well, that's
the hardware folks! I still remember Logitech telling me they
couldn't afford to write drivers for OS2! Like: a mouse driver is
rocket science?... :)

Yes, there is a "secret" option to turn the "screen update" off. But
that's a cure worse than the disease!! Now the display has nothing to
do with actual settings currently active. That's positively crazy! And
certainly brakes every UI guideline regarding ergonomics.

Hmmm, I found that screen refresh irritating at the start. I read through
the FAQs and the UG and the solution was there: set the refresh time to 0.
Then it's just a matter of ^E once I wanted a refresh. No great issue
with me, but I can see where it would irritate other users with that
refresh on every keypress.

Back then it struck me that Vuescan did not have individual Analog
Gain setting. This caused a saga you can read in the archives:

Ah OK, it's something you've complained about before and got nowhere.
Fair enough, I'll have a look around.
Now, being in the business, I suspect you're using the software
"defensively" i.e. not upgrading just because there's a new version,
as well as keeping a "known good version" backed up "just in case"
whenever you do decide to upgrade - after others have beta-tested it
for you... ;o)

Yup. "Been there, done that" kinda thing...
Anyway, that explains it! Do check the archives for a litany of
reappearing Vuescan bugs. If you plan to use it, it's certainly in
your interest to do that!

Will do, thanks.
From IBM mainframe's *logical* IMS (for those in the know the
"logical" bit is important!) to Microsoft's unilateral re-definition
of NULL! And just for the heck of it, another "Ha!" ;o)

Oh boy! A partner in crime! ;)
 
HvdV apparently said,on my timestamp of 10/09/2005 6:41 AM:
Sure, Apple used to be a "dictatorial", to be avoided at all costs. But
now they're doing Unix they are actually quite nice to developers. They
still employ loathsome marketing people, but the machines and OS are fine.

too late for me: gave up my se30 (bought on the promise of system8)
when they threw away support of AU/X.
Too much of an investment in Windoze and Loonicks nowadays to even
contemplate going back to Macs. But they sure do have some fine
hardware. Here's hoping they don't muck up the OS again...
 

Check any Linux distribution and then chase up individual
applications. More often than not, they usually have a Windows version
as well. Start it and you would never know it originated from Linux.

Right now as I'm sending this I use PuTTY to connect to my remote
provider via SSH tunneling.

Cygwin is another one than springs to mind. Don't confuse what it does
(provides a Unix-like environment on a Windows box) with *how* it does
it because that's what we're talking about. From the UI point it
integrates into Windows seamlessly.

Both of those are *technical* applications from a totally different
paradigm. So, they would be most difficult to integrate into a
completely "alien" environment, and yet it's done flawlessly.

So, if it's possible to port such difficult technical tools, a plain
vanilla user application would certainly be elementary by comparison.
Ok, that's bad, maybe the guy needs a holiday.

Yes, a permanent "holiday". ;o)
Hm. You can't conclude from the fact that the GUI is a bit awkward (I guess
many in this newsgroup would agree on 'a bit awkward') that the underlying
code is a mess, in turn leading to many bugs.

You got that backwards. That's *not* the conclusion I made as I
explained:

It's not the GUI but the constant stream of Vuescan bugs and notorious
unreliability which (primarily) lead to the conclusion that the
underlying code is a mess.
If vuescan would crash every
session the average user would use it *and* there was solid statistics about
that, then that would be something else.

This comes up all the time so, a while back, I compiled a *short*
representative list of *some* Vuescan bugs. Just yesterday I advised
someone else to check the archives for that very message.

Oh well, I guess it's time to post it again... NOTE: All the people
quoted below are dedicated *Vuescan fans*, not some "bashers".

Are those statistics solid enough? And that's only a *small* sample!!!
Coming back to the supposedly poor support, IMO a healthy company can't
provide personal support for a $50 product. I wonder what the total revenue
is for Vuescan, but it seems not enough to hire a second programmer, let
alone a support guy. With more devices to support, more lines of code to
maintain, more angry customers, that is a serious problem.

All that is beside the point. Whether it's a one-man-show or a huge
multinational a *commercial* application lives and dies by what it
does or doesn't do. That's all there is to it.

If it were freeware or GNU licence or similar, then we can cut it a
lot of slack, but once you pay for something it's a different story
altogether and all those excuses don't count anymore.

And, as I already mentioned, on top of all that the author is cranky,
abusive and just plain obscene.
Me a Mac user? Only for scanning!

Do you actually mean scanning or editing as well?

Just out of curiosity, what does Mac offer that your main system
doesn't? I mean, it must be something big to force you to leave your
main system just for this one usage, and I'm just curious what it is.
Sure, Apple used to be a "dictatorial", to be avoided at all costs. But now
they're doing Unix they are actually quite nice to developers. They still
employ loathsome marketing people, but the machines and OS are fine.

The sad thing is that Apple had a lot of sympathy because it was the
only serious alternative to the "evil empire". Unfortunately, ever
since the *good* Steve (the Woz) left and the *evil* Steve (Jobs)
stayed Apple is simply a law firm pretending to be a marketing firm.
What's ironic is that all those UI lawsuits were based on a UI which
Apple itself *stole* from Xerox at Palo Alto!!!

What's also ironic is that after Apple went bankrupt and the evil
Steve came crawling back, he had to eat his words and take back
everything he said against Microsoft. Why? Because Microsoft saved
Apple by giving it ~300 million dollars.

So, right now, Apple is basically a minor division of Microsoft in
charge of monopoly alibi.

Don.

--- arbitrary start ---

I had a similarly negative experience with VueScan:
I tried VueScan with the Minolta Dimage Scan MultiPRO and found it
unusable because of severe banding problems.


Unfortunately, to date VueScan is not capable of scanning the Raw data
with a linear gamma...

Yes that'll be one of the effects the VueScan D-max bug will cause.

But: being a novice in the
trade I could not determine for myself that what was claimed: Vuescan
supports Minolta Scan Dual IV, wasn't true.


Tried that. It doesn't help.
I tried all the avenues that Vuescan allowed and no combination of features
provided a good scan. Your suggestion even made things worse.


So this bug has survived through two subsequent versions to 8.1.13,
rendering Vuescan more-or-less useless, if you use scan-from-disk
workflow.

ICE manages to clean my problematic slides very well, doing a much more
complete job, and much more "seamlessly". Vuescan leaves so much, and
leaves obviously softened areas.

I'm really getting tired of even
trying new releases, it's a time consuming waste of time.

Somewhere around recent version .20 "something bad happened" to Vuescan
speed. Since then, several new version descriptions have promised
greatly improved speed etc. Atleast as of .23, my personal experience
is it's still very pokey.

About a couple of weeks ago I bought Vuescan to use with my brand new
Minolta. I was worried about reports of lines but was told that has
been fixed. IT HASN'T!! The damn lines are everywhere! Vuescan is total
CRAP! I wrote two emails but got no reply and I'm really fed up and
pissed off! I WANT MY MONEY BACK! What a ripoff! It's Vue-SCAM! That's
what it is!

I'm using VueScan with Canon FS4000US over SCSI connection. Just
upgraded from 8.1.32 to 8.1.36 and noticed a problem with "Preview"
command. In version 36 it takes forever, compared to version 32.
Apparently, version 36 does preview at full resolution (4000dpi) even
though the "Input | Preview resolution" is manually set to mere 500dpi.

I just updated to 8.2.03, and I'm getting "double" images side by side
of the SAME scans in the preview OR scan window..

Eddie Wiseman

...After I disabled batch mode and pressed
'Scan', VueScan went on to scanning all six frames in batch mode,
despite that fact that I explicitly asked it to scan only one frame.

What's going on with VueScan? Apparently, nobody is even trying to do
even the most basic testing of the new version before the release.

So it looks like a serious bug with the cropping system, as you suggest. Don
will say "told you so" -well, he did! Stick to your working version.
Upgrade at your peril!

--- no end... ---
 
Detecting a bug early is of course only useful if you do something about it.

Or *can* do something about it!

For example, Vuescan was unusable with a Minolta scanner for over *two
years*! The author repeatedly manifested he was *incapable* of fixing
it. Lots of empty promises but the bug persisted in each new release.

However, that didn't prevent the author from listing this scanner as
"supported" and refuse to refund the money to people who complained.
Sure, in that case you'd be better off looking for another job.

That's all I'm saying.
Maybe he was using a very good compiler which does all kinds of
transformations on the code...

No, that wasn't it. I'm very familiar with what a (C) compiler does
but it was the underlying "logic" which was a total mess.
What was it then what was so appalling?

Incredibly sloppy code full of band-aids. One example I still
remember, there was one table atomized into several parts for no good
reason with absolutely awful "work-around" code. It was clearly a case
of sloppy design i.e. hardcoding of table size and then trying to get
around it. Just awful. No wonder Vuescan falls over all the time.
(see my other post) I think it is more likely he can't handle the workload.

As that saying goes: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the
kitchen!"
What in this case might also play a role is that (as he says on his web site)
he doesn't get along with Minolta. Happens, but not so smart to state that in
public.

You have to view this in full context. That's certainly not smart but
it's a lesser of two evils. Well, it is in his mind... Nevertheless,
blaming Minolta openly (and I wasn't even aware of this until now!)
shows his total lack of any business sense overcome by bad temper.

You see, the Vuescan author was unable to fix a bug in his program to
work with a Minolta scanner for TWO years (the infamous "stripes").
Minolta's native software had no such problems (some people reported a
similar flaw in the very first version, but within a couple of weeks
Minolta provided a working upgrade).

The Vuescan author finally fixed his program (after *two* years!) but
only when a regular contributor here told him how to do it.

So blaming Minolta for his own incompetence is not only pathetic and
shows a total lack of any business sense (as you also spotted) but it
shows lack of any *common sense* and a kind of delusion believing that
such an emotional outburst somehow excuses his own incompetence!?
You say quality wise it is going under, with the suggestion it is also
going under commercially.

I have no idea what it's doing commercially. There is some
circumstantial evidence - the author's bad temper - that it's not
doing very well, but that's not definitive. After all, he has always
been cranky and abusive.
Could be, but from its popularity in this newsgroup
I gather it is not. Does anyone know how large the Vuescan installed base is
and how many licenses are sold each year? Same for Silverfast?

The author *claimed* 50,000 users on his site (if I remember
correctly) but offered no independent proof of that whatsoever.

Also, you have to take the "popularity" in this group with a boulder
of salt. For one, this group is a very small and unrepresentative
sample. There are less than 20 messages per day on average and even if
we assume each message is from a different person and the number of
lurkers is 10 times that, the total still comes to only about a couple
of hundred people, at best. And only a handful are Vuescan users.

But more importantly, you get a very skewed view because there are a
few rabid Vuescan "fans" who are very vocal giving a wrong impression.
Those very "fans" - who can't stand to see *objective* fact about
Vuescan and immediately attack - then go on to constantly complain
about Vuescan bugs which makes their "defense" of Vuescan irrational.

Some "fans" don't even use Vuescan because it's so buggy, but still
continue to rabidly "defend" it anyway without providing any facts.

Don.
 
Don, you don't need to respond to *each* comment posted with a new
reply. You've now taken over an entire page of comments and anyone
tuning into the thread now would only see your comments.

Isn't it only common courtesy to respond when people write to you?

Not to mention, if I don't comment *with supporting facts* then people
like you would (and have! - quotes available on request) accuse me of
"bashing without proof". So, damned if I do, damned if I don't!

Besides, everyone is entitled to write, just as everyone is entitled
*not* to read.

Finally, if you don't want to read someone's post use a filter, that's
what they're for. Or simply press the key needed to skip the message.

Besides, from your comment below it appears you read my messages with
interest so I don't understand the above, contradictory, complaint.
Don wrote:
"Yes, there is a "secret" option to turn the "screen update" off. But
that's a cure worse than the disease!! Now the display has nothing to
do with actual settings currently active. That's positively crazy! And
certainly brakes every UI guideline regarding ergonomics."

I complained about this 8 months ago or so. I believe this is fixed
and isn't a problem any longer. I regularly enter in exposure values
manually and it doesn't refresh while you're typing anymore. That was
annoying!

The question is, has this "display update" just been turned off (i.e.
that "secret" option has been made permanent) or has the input code
actually been modified?

What I mean is, does the actual setting correspond to the display?
Using the above "secret" option made the display and the actual
setting potentially different which is against all UI guidelines.

Don.
 
Well, yes. I can see that. However I think Vuescan has one major
advantage for folks like me who run Windows and Linux: it runs
everywhere.

That's very true. However, when the program is just too buggy and far
too unreliable to be useful, then it's a case of diminishing returns.
I mean, it's the same as the price argument. Cheap, yes, we all want
that, but when it just doesn't work, even free is too expensive. Heck,
I wouldn't use Vuescan even if they paid me! ;o)

I do run Linux occasionally but not as much as I want to (life keeps
getting in the way). There is SANE but, apparently, it's relatively
limited. Nevertheless, having the same program run on all platforms
one uses is a clear plus. The key word being "run"!
Hmmm, I found that screen refresh irritating at the start. I read through
the FAQs and the UG and the solution was there: set the refresh time to 0.
Then it's just a matter of ^E once I wanted a refresh. No great issue
with me, but I can see where it would irritate other users with that
refresh on every keypress.

Humans are adaptable and we can get used to all sorts of things. But
the point is that's a clear violation of all UI guidelines. If it were
only that, it would be bad enough, but there is an endless slew of
such "annoyances" (some of which I outlined earlier). Like I say, one
is bad enough, but the cumulative totality just shows a complete lack
of understanding of UI design or ergonomics.
Oh boy! A partner in crime! ;)

Yup! ;o)

Don.
 
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