G
Gordon
FreeComputerConsultant.com said:
Then that's their fault for not researching properly.....
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Then that's their fault for not researching properly.....
J
John John
FreeComputerConsultant.com said:I'm going to recommend Home Premium and above. Why have Vista without Aero?
And no, I do not sell operating systems. What I have seen is people buy
a "cheap" PC loaded with Home or MCE, take it to their office and find
out it won't connect to their domain.
Business and home users have different needs. The fact that you need
the Professional version to join a domain is almost "common knowledge"
by now. Most home users have no need to join domains nor do they have
needs for the other features in XP Pro that are aimed at business users.
These extra features do not make XP Pro more reliable or stable than
XP Home and XP Home suffers no stability problems because these features
are absent. There is no evidence to support your claim that Home and
Media Center Editions are "VERY troublesome" and other than enriching
Microsoft your broad advice that all home users buy a more expensive
version of the operating system will not do much for these users...
other than making them poorer.
John
F
FreeComputerConsultant.com
There may be no evidence of stability problems, but google it and see
what you find...
"Probably biggest gotcha! is that Windows XP Pro and Windows XP Home are
very different products. Lots is missing in XP Home and it is much less
stable than XP Pro."
(http://www.windowsnetworking.com/kb...ooting/WindowsXPCommonProblemsandGotchas.html)
[And no, I have no idea who these people are and am not connected to
them in any way nor did I pay them to make that claim]
Common knowledge among professionals maybe, but unfortunately a great
number buy off the Internet or in big box stores. Is it their fault?
Yes. But my aim is to provide some help for those people.
what you find...
"Probably biggest gotcha! is that Windows XP Pro and Windows XP Home are
very different products. Lots is missing in XP Home and it is much less
stable than XP Pro."
(http://www.windowsnetworking.com/kb...ooting/WindowsXPCommonProblemsandGotchas.html)
[And no, I have no idea who these people are and am not connected to
them in any way nor did I pay them to make that claim]
Common knowledge among professionals maybe, but unfortunately a great
number buy off the Internet or in big box stores. Is it their fault?
Yes. But my aim is to provide some help for those people.
G
Gordon
FreeComputerConsultant.com said:There may be no evidence of stability problems, but google it and see what
you find...
"Probably biggest gotcha! is that Windows XP Pro and Windows XP Home are
very different products. Lots is missing in XP Home and it is much less
stable than XP Pro."
(http://www.windowsnetworking.com/kb...ooting/WindowsXPCommonProblemsandGotchas.html)
[And no, I have no idea who these people are and am not connected to them
in any way nor did I pay them to make that claim]
And the claim is totally spurious. I've used both XP pro AND Home in
business locations (obviously the Home setup had no domain but peer-to-peer)
and had absolutely NO problems with either set up. As a Systems and
Management Accountant I can tell you that it's HOGWASH. (And no I do not,
and never have, worked for MS! And I run Linux at home so that should
indicate my impartiality....)
B
Bruce Chambers
FreeComputerConsultant.com said:Bruce,
I like the quotes in your signature - that one from Franklin is one of
my favorites.
However, no drug experience here; just a lot of XP.
Actually, it is possible for someone with any amount, in fact a large
amount, to make such a claim. I did, and I stand behind it.
Granted, you experience will vary from that of myself and others, but
you arw the very first person I've ever seen make a claim that WinXP
Home and WinXP MCE are inherently inferior to WinXP Pro. That's just
completely at variance with everything I've ever experienced or heard
from other experienced professionals.
The WinXP Home and WinXP Pro editions are _identical_ when it comes
to performance, stability, and device driver and software application
compatibility, but are intended to meet different functionality,
networking, security, and ease-of-use needs, in different environments.
The most significant differences are that WinXP Pro allows up to 10
simultaneous inbound network connections while WinXP Home only allows
only 5, WinXP Pro is designed to join a Microsoft domain while WinXP
Home cannot, and only WinXP Pro supports file encryption and IIS.
WinXP Media Center Edition is a _superset_ (iow, it does
_everything_ WinXP Pro can do (except join a domain), plus contains
additional multi-media features) of WinXP Pro.
Had you experience with anything other than OEM installations brought
to you by inexperienced home consumers, as your posts indicate, you'd
think differently. Naturally, the problems built into these systems by
the OEM and further "enhanced" by their owner's inexperienced use would
go away when the OS is replaced. That doesn't mean that the OS was the
cause of the problem, though.
I only wish I could have some of you guys stop by the next time I have
one of these cases on my workbench. Or when a brand new machine factory
loaded with MCE hangs shutting down.
A brand-new factory loaded OS' having problems doesn't mean that
there's anything inherently wrong with the operating system; it just
means that the extra trash (and sometimes even just plain spyware)
installed by the OEM are problematic. As a matter of principle, I
*NEVER* allow a factory-installed OS and software bundle to go into use;
not only is there no way of telling what kind of tampering a disgruntled
employee might add to the mix, there is almost always malware of some
sort, such as AOL, included. I always wipe such systems clean and
re-install only the essential, useful, and trustworthy applications and
utilities.
BTW, the question on WinME is relevant.
I don't see how.
If someone had said "yes", WinME
was just fine, then I know who I'm talking to. I was relieved that this
wasn't the case. There are some out there who feel Microsoft can do no
wrong. And with those folks, no debate is of any value.
Even if there were nothing inherently wrong with WinME (and I don't
personally know that there actually was, never having encountered the OS
on any computer other than those on the shelves of stores), for future
reference, comparing WinXP to Win98/ME is a lot like comparing a Lexus
to a Yugo -- the only similarities are entirely superficial.
I just voiced my honest opinion in my original post based on years of
experience, and a lot of late nights. Sad to see this has gotten
somewhat heated. Perhaps we can all agree to disagree. I'm looking
forward to Vista and hoping for the best.
--
Bruce Chambers
Help us help you:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin
Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
B
Bruce Chambers
FreeComputerConsultant.com said:I'm going to recommend Home Premium and above. Why have Vista without Aero?
Better question: Why buy a new OS whose only significant change from
its predecessor is a useless and resource-wasting piece of eye-candy.
Aero has got to be one of Vista's biggest draw-backs.
And no, I do not sell operating systems. What I have seen is people buy
a "cheap" PC loaded with Home or MCE, take it to their office and find
out it won't connect to their domain.
So you're categorically blaming the underlying OS for the problems your
customers are deliberately bringing on themselves by "buying cheap," or
by buying the wrong OS for their needs? That's not the fault of the OS,
it's the fault of the uninformed purchasers.
Then I help them find the cheapest source of an upgrade and they spend
almost $200 to upgrade - when an OEM copy bought online is only $140.
Plus an hour or so to do the upgrade. How "cheap" is that PC now? They
throw away the copy of XP Home and buy XP Pro for something short of $200.
And am I at fault for having told them, ahead of time, to make SURE they
get XP Pro?
If you're telling them that WinXP Home and/or WinXp MCE aren't designed
to meet their needs, and that WinXp Pro would be a better fit, that'd be
fine. Instead, you're apparently incorrectly telling them that Home and
MCE are inferior. This is an outright falsehood.
You guys say that my comments are going overboard or not relevant, and
now you're talking about DataCenter?
Come on guys. My experience is apparently different from yours - I'm
very happy for you; perhaps jealous. Last I knew I still had the right
to voice my opinion - though maybe not for long.
I'm holding out great hope for Vista, but I think people are going to
want Aero - so Vista Home Basic is out, right?
Well, it's true that most home consumers will probably be impressed
with Aero, and buy the new OS for no other reason than its shiny new
looks, but that's hardly a recommendation.
Having beta tested Vista, I'll be upgrading only when I have to; it
holds no value-added features for me.
--
Bruce Chambers
Help us help you:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin
Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
F
FreeComputerConsultant.com
Bruce,
You make some very good points.
The people I end up helping, both offline and online, are those who have
no clue. They just want to buy a tool and have it work. Some would argue
that they should be able to do just that.
Do OEM's sabotage that effort with add-ons and customizations better
left out? Yep.
Are they foolish for believing the hype? Absolutely.
Do I recommend they run out and upgrade? No. But if they are going to
anyway, I want them to have the best chance of success. Am I
recommending Vista just to get Aero, no. But my point is simply why get
Vista without the eye-candy? (unless it really is super reliable, fewer
required reboots, etc)
Is Aero mostly glitz? Probably. But so is the internet, and that's what
people are buying.
Go to Youtube and try to find a video that's getting huge views and
chances are:
1.) it shows some skin
2.) someone gets hurt
3.) there is a (at least implied) promise of either 1 or 2
I've long since given up trying to lecture people on their buying
stupidity; I try my best to educate them and steer them toward a best
reliability, long term solution.
My clients typically get 5 - 7 years of reliable service out of their
PC's. Yes, we may have upgraded RAM or a processor in there; and
certainly moved the PC down the office food chain. But it's thrown out
only after 6 - 8 years. And that makes everybody happy (except Intel &
Microsoft).
When I see home users getting 2 - 4 years out of their PC's, I just
cringe. And of that 2 - 4 years, 1 - 3 years they've been unhappy with
it. There's no good reason for it. I try to educate and guide them
toward a happier outcome.
Are XP Home and MCE inferior? In my opinion, yes. Are you and the others
entitled to a different opinion, you bet. Are you doing the right thing
to wipe that OEM clean and redo it? Most likely, I sure believe it would
help. Problem for me is that that isn't when the PC is brought to me for
help. I get it a year or so down the road after a lot of frustration.
Thanks for keeping it civil.
You make some very good points.
The people I end up helping, both offline and online, are those who have
no clue. They just want to buy a tool and have it work. Some would argue
that they should be able to do just that.
Do OEM's sabotage that effort with add-ons and customizations better
left out? Yep.
Are they foolish for believing the hype? Absolutely.
Do I recommend they run out and upgrade? No. But if they are going to
anyway, I want them to have the best chance of success. Am I
recommending Vista just to get Aero, no. But my point is simply why get
Vista without the eye-candy? (unless it really is super reliable, fewer
required reboots, etc)
Is Aero mostly glitz? Probably. But so is the internet, and that's what
people are buying.
Go to Youtube and try to find a video that's getting huge views and
chances are:
1.) it shows some skin
2.) someone gets hurt
3.) there is a (at least implied) promise of either 1 or 2
I've long since given up trying to lecture people on their buying
stupidity; I try my best to educate them and steer them toward a best
reliability, long term solution.
My clients typically get 5 - 7 years of reliable service out of their
PC's. Yes, we may have upgraded RAM or a processor in there; and
certainly moved the PC down the office food chain. But it's thrown out
only after 6 - 8 years. And that makes everybody happy (except Intel &
Microsoft).
When I see home users getting 2 - 4 years out of their PC's, I just
cringe. And of that 2 - 4 years, 1 - 3 years they've been unhappy with
it. There's no good reason for it. I try to educate and guide them
toward a happier outcome.
Are XP Home and MCE inferior? In my opinion, yes. Are you and the others
entitled to a different opinion, you bet. Are you doing the right thing
to wipe that OEM clean and redo it? Most likely, I sure believe it would
help. Problem for me is that that isn't when the PC is brought to me for
help. I get it a year or so down the road after a lot of frustration.
Thanks for keeping it civil.
B
Bruce Chambers
FreeComputerConsultant.com said:Bruce,
You make some very good points.
Thank you.
The people I end up helping, both offline and online, are those who have
no clue. They just want to buy a tool and have it work. Some would argue
that they should be able to do just that.
Well, I don't think anyone would argue against that position. One
*should* be able to buy a tool and just have it work. The problem you
have is customers who need a finishing hammer, walk into the nearest
Home Depot, ask the sales associate for the cheapest hammer in stock,
only to later discover that they have a ball-peen hammer. It doesn't
matter how well the tool actually works at its designed function; it
simply isn't possible to make it adequate to perform the wrong job.
Do OEM's sabotage that effort with add-ons and customizations better
left out? Yep.
Are they foolish for believing the hype? Absolutely.
Do I recommend they run out and upgrade? No. But if they are going to
anyway, I want them to have the best chance of success. Am I
recommending Vista just to get Aero, no. But my point is simply why get
Vista without the eye-candy? (unless it really is super reliable, fewer
required reboots, etc)
Because it'd perform a lot better without Aero and not require massive
hardware upgrades, particularly in the RAM and video adapter categories.
Vista does have a few useful improvements, particularly in the area of
security; it's designed for the clueless, in this regard - experienced,
knowledgeable users will likely find it frustrating.
Is Aero mostly glitz? Probably.
Entirely, actually. Aero is just an interface style, after all.
But so is the internet, and that's what
people are buying.
Go to Youtube and try to find a video that's getting huge views and
chances are:
1.) it shows some skin
2.) someone gets hurt
3.) there is a (at least implied) promise of either 1 or 2
Yes, it's a sad, sad, sad world we live in; that ruled by the lowest
common denominator.
I've long since given up trying to lecture people on their buying
stupidity; I try my best to educate them and steer them toward a best
reliability, long term solution.
My clients typically get 5 - 7 years of reliable service out of their
PC's. Yes, we may have upgraded RAM or a processor in there; and
certainly moved the PC down the office food chain. But it's thrown out
only after 6 - 8 years. And that makes everybody happy (except Intel &
Microsoft).
When I see home users getting 2 - 4 years out of their PC's, I just
cringe. And of that 2 - 4 years, 1 - 3 years they've been unhappy with
it. There's no good reason for it.
Actually there's a very simple reason for it, not that's it's a "good"
reason: the pure, unadulterated intellectual laziness of the average
consumer.
I try to educate and guide them
toward a happier outcome.
Are XP Home and MCE inferior? In my opinion, yes.
But how or why? You haven't presented any technical reason to take
such a position, other than a collection of customers who've purchased
the wrong tool for the wrong job. How does that reflect upon the OS?
Are you and the others
entitled to a different opinion, you bet.
And you're entitled to your opinion, as well. However, many would
argue that, without any supporting facts, you don't actually have an
opinion, per se; what you have is no more than a faith based feeling.
Are you doing the right thing
to wipe that OEM clean and redo it? Most likely, I sure believe it would
help. Problem for me is that that isn't when the PC is brought to me for
help. I get it a year or so down the road after a lot of frustration.
Thanks for keeping it civil.
You're welcome.
--
Bruce Chambers
Help us help you:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin
Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
G
Guest
The music software I use (Sonar 6) does not work with MCE. It is not
supported by
the manufacturer. Pro is recommended. Certain audio drivers do not work
with MCE. I have this is true with other music products.
Unfortunately I found out too late. As I understand it, I must buy a
full-fledged version of Pro and do a clean install, because you can't upgrade
MCE to Pro.
Does that mean I will need to format my hard drive (wipe off MCE) and start
from scratch?
supported by
the manufacturer. Pro is recommended. Certain audio drivers do not work
with MCE. I have this is true with other music products.
Unfortunately I found out too late. As I understand it, I must buy a
full-fledged version of Pro and do a clean install, because you can't upgrade
MCE to Pro.
Does that mean I will need to format my hard drive (wipe off MCE) and start
from scratch?
G
GeneK
IF you have XP Media Center 2005 version IT IS built over XP Pro. If you
have an earlier version, you may have a system built over XP Home or so I
have been told.
--
Gene K
The music software I use (Sonar 6) does not work with MCE. It is not
supported by
the manufacturer. Pro is recommended. Certain audio drivers do not work
with MCE. I have this is true with other music products.
Unfortunately I found out too late. As I understand it, I must buy a
full-fledged version of Pro and do a clean install, because you can't
upgrade
MCE to Pro.
Does that mean I will need to format my hard drive (wipe off MCE) and start
from scratch?
have an earlier version, you may have a system built over XP Home or so I
have been told.
--
Gene K
The music software I use (Sonar 6) does not work with MCE. It is not
supported by
the manufacturer. Pro is recommended. Certain audio drivers do not work
with MCE. I have this is true with other music products.
Unfortunately I found out too late. As I understand it, I must buy a
full-fledged version of Pro and do a clean install, because you can't
upgrade
MCE to Pro.
Does that mean I will need to format my hard drive (wipe off MCE) and start
from scratch?