XP and Vista

[Phillips]

Glad to help. Your shiny Toshiba will be obsolete once Nehalem comes out in
a few months... wives are more expensive to upgrade

There are ways to create a good XP Pro install CD using the Dell OEM plus
VLite and some other tools to rewrite the OEM installation and config files
but it is not worth the effort and the risks since your Dell serial key will
might not work and you will not be able to keep both laptops' XPs activated
anyways.

Your CC should sell discounted ("educational") XP OS. Student pricing is
available from MS as well. A quick look on the web finds XP Pro SP2 Full
Version w/ serial and activation guaranteed but no MS Support for $55+$9
S&H.

Michael

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Glad to help. Your shiny Toshiba will be obsolete once Nehalem comes out
in a few months... wives are more expensive to upgrade

Why would it be obsolete when the Nehalem cpus come out? Will his Toshiba
magically stop running his software well? If you think of "obsolete" as not
being the latest and greatest then Nehalem will be obsolete when it ships if
you look at the Intel roadmap for what is already in development for the
next generation after that. To me "obsolete" means that a product can no
longer do what I need it to do.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

I recall that OEM licensing policies were changed quite often. Once, it was
"tied" to some piece of hardware - even an USB cable or such - and not
necessarily to the motherboard. Hence, why not transfer the HDD from one
laptop to another - this is a legal point and I am not discussing the
technological issues.

With due respect, my reply was to Bruce.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

[.............]
First and foremost, if the specific computer model in question was designed
specifically for Vista, there may well be no WinXP-specific device drivers
available to make the computer's diverse components
work properly. If this proves to be the case , installing WinXP in a
virtual machine would be your best option, anyway. Consult the
computer's manufacturer about the availability of device drivers....

Wouldn't even a virtual machine (running on Vista) require
XP device drivers for its guest XP OSes?

Normally, the older OS must be installed first unless you wish to acquire
and use some 3rd-party partition and boot management utility. (In which case
you have to follow the instructions provided by whatever 3rd party solution
you select.) However, this KB Article (not for the faint of heart or
technically-challenged) explains how to repair the Vista boot process after
installing WinXP:

These links will help:

Using BCDedit:
http://windowssecrets.com/2008/02/14/01-Make-your-computer-dual-boot-Vista-and-XP
http://www.aiscl.co.uk/dualbootvista.php

Using VistaBootPro:
http://vistasupport.mvps.org/install_windows_xp_on_machine_running_vista.htm

Using EasyBCD:
http://apcmag.com/how_to_dual_boot_vista_and_xp_with_vista_installed_first__the_stepbystep_guide.htm
(be patient, this site loads *really* slowly - it's very popular
and its server is overloaded.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Phillips]

Of course, according to your own definition of "obsolete," you are correct.
Nehalem, though, is (advertized as) a *new platform* w/ greater
productivity, less power drain. Obsolete in my definition is "that cannot
run the *latest* software in optimal conditions." For ex., see the issues
with "Vista Ready" campaign. Moreover, there are hardware security (DEP/NX
type), energy savings improvements and so on that render PC's (and other
computing devices) if not obsolete at least comparatively unsafe and
inefficient. Imagine using a Pentium 3 running Win98SE; it is still
productive and running whatever but... obsolete in my definition.

Michael

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Bruce, that is no longer true. The "piece of hardware" rule went out
two years ago when MS revised the OEM (System Builder) license. MS no
longer requires resellers to provide hardware. The present requirement is:

"2. Authorized Distribution and Acceptance. To distribute the Software
or Hardware in this Pack, you must be a
System Builder and accept this license. “System Builder†means an
original equipment manufacturer, an assembler, a
refurbisher, or a software pre-installer that sells the Customer
System(s) to a third party."

That's from the Systems Builders license, isn't it? That's not the
same as the OEM EULA that an end user sees.

The "piece of hardware" rule only applied to OEM pack resellers anyway.
It never applied to purchasers. The present license applies to
purchasers so there is no longer any need for a requirement for
resellers (like NewEgg) to provide any hardware with an OEM pack.

The current license is at:
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/sblicense/default.mspx

Again, that's the System Builder's EULA, not the OEM EULA.

--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:


http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

 

[Bruce Chambers]

I recall that OEM licensing policies were changed quite often. Once, it
was "tied" to some piece of hardware - even an USB cable or such - and
not necessarily to the motherboard.

No, that was never the case. The OEM EULA was bound to the machine
into which the qualifying hardware component was first installed. This
was clearly stated within the EULA.

Hence, why not transfer the HDD from
one laptop to another - this is a legal point and I am not discussing
the technological issues.

No, it wasn't legal. See above.

--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:


http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

 

[Bruce Chambers]

[.............]
First and foremost, if the specific computer model in question was designed
specifically for Vista, there may well be no WinXP-specific device drivers
available to make the computer's diverse components
work properly. If this proves to be the case , installing WinXP in a
virtual machine would be your best option, anyway. Consult the
computer's manufacturer about the availability of device drivers....

Wouldn't even a virtual machine (running on Vista) require
XP device drivers for its guest XP OSes?

Perhaps, but not usually. The VM simulates very common, almost
generic, hardware components. It's almost a certainty that WinXP's
installation CD would contain everything needed.



--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:


http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Of course, according to your own definition of "obsolete," you are
correct. Nehalem, though, is (advertized as) a *new platform* w/ greater
productivity, less power drain. Obsolete in my definition is "that cannot
run the *latest* software in optimal conditions." For ex., see the issues
with "Vista Ready" campaign. Moreover, there are hardware security (DEP/NX
type), energy savings improvements and so on that render PC's (and other
computing devices) if not obsolete at least comparatively unsafe and
inefficient. Imagine using a Pentium 3 running Win98SE; it is still
productive and running whatever but... obsolete in my definition.

Michael



Your shiny Toshiba will be obsolete once Nehalem comes out in a few
months... wives are more expensive to upgrade

Hardly jibes with

Imagine using a Pentium 3 running Win98SE; it is still productive and
running whatever but...

On the one hand you are talking about a two-year old laptop (at the time
Nehalem laptop chips ship) and on the other comparing that to a ten-year old
technology.

Nehalem is just the next microarchitecture. I like the sounds of it, but
Intel is on a two-year cycle with new microarchitectures. Its their
business plan. At least the quads should be 1x4 instead of 2x2. But my
Yorkfield will not be obsoleted by it.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

That's from the Systems Builders license, isn't it? That's not the same
as the OEM EULA that an end user sees.




Again, that's the System Builder's EULA, not the OEM EULA.

--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:

But that's my point. The "piece of hardware" rule was never in the EULA. I
don't even think it was in the old system builder license either. It was
just a requirement MS placed on authorized resellers of OEM packs.

The purchasers of the OEM packs (the system builders) were never required to
purchase hardware with the packs and the rule did not concern end users at
all.

But some end users misinterpreted the whole thing so they could claim that
as long as they purchased OEM packs with a piece of hardware they could do
as they liked. It got so twisted MS revised the sb license.

All the EULA says is that the software is permanently assigned to the
licensed device and may not be transferred.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Wouldn't even a virtual machine (running on Vista) require
XP device drivers for its guest XP OSes?

In addition to Bruce's answer, specific MS device drivers are included in
the virtual machine additions which the user installs from the VPC or VS
folder once the guest OS is installed. The emulated hardware devices in a
virtual machine cannot be changed and a guest does not directly use the
host's devices so this works very well.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

[.............]
First and foremost, if the specific computer model in question was designed
specifically for Vista, there may well be no WinXP-specific device drivers
available to make the computer's diverse components
work properly. If this proves to be the case , installing WinXP in a
virtual machine would be your best option, anyway. Consult the
computer's manufacturer about the availability of device drivers....

Wouldn't even a virtual machine (running on Vista) require
XP device drivers for its guest XP OSes?

Perhaps, but not usually. The VM simulates very common, almost generic,
hardware components. It's almost a certainty that WinXP's installation CD
would contain everything needed.

How about a Dell Bluetooth mouse with 7 button modes, or a USB
all-in-one printer, or a Wi-Fi card? IOW, how well do these devices
work under drivers that simulate "common, almost generic" hardware?
Isn't it true that many devices work better with drivers made specifically
for them instead of the "generic" drivers? That certainly was true of my
Brother AIO laser printer - it worked with the XP generic printer driver,
but it lost a couple functions. I'd much rather have all the functions.

*TimDaniels*

 

[John D. Sheridan]

:
[.............]
First and foremost, if the specific computer model in question was
designed specifically for Vista, there may well be no WinXP-specific
device drivers available to make the computer's diverse components
work properly. If this proves to be the case , installing WinXP in a
virtual machine would be your best option, anyway. Consult the
computer's manufacturer about the availability of device drivers....


Wouldn't even a virtual machine (running on Vista) require
XP device drivers for its guest XP OSes?

Perhaps, but not usually. The VM simulates very common, almost generic,
hardware components. It's almost a certainty that WinXP's installation
CD would contain everything needed.

How about a Dell Bluetooth mouse with 7 button modes, or a USB
all-in-one printer, or a Wi-Fi card? IOW, how well do these devices
work under drivers that simulate "common, almost generic" hardware?
Isn't it true that many devices work better with drivers made specifically
for them instead of the "generic" drivers? That certainly was true of my
Brother AIO laser printer - it worked with the XP generic printer driver,
but it lost a couple functions. I'd much rather have all the functions.

*TimDaniels*

In my experience, the devices work, but you DO lose functionality because
the guest OS can not see any of the physical devices on the host PC, it's a
totally emulated environment. The OS in the virtual machine wouldn'tt see
the Dell Bluetooth mouse, it would see a wired MicroSoft PS/2 mouse and VPC
would translate the basic PS/2 functions to/from the Dell mouse. I have a
laptop that has a Synaptics Touch Pad that has a Scroll function that
doesn't work in either a Windows 98 VM or Windows Server 2003 VM. I tried
on a whim to install the drivers for it, and only suceeded in losing ALL
mouse functionality in the VM's. I also succeeded in crashing the 98 VM
when I removed the drivers.

The guest OS also wouldn't see the Wi-Fi card, it would sees an Intel
21140-Based PCI Fast Ethernet Adapter and VPC would translate the basic
functions to/from the WiFi card. Since the VM doesn't have USB, the
all-in-one could only be accessed as a network or shared printer from the
host PC. It may just not be possible to emulate USB like everything else.
You might or might not get more functionality that way, depending on how
much you could normally get with it being networked or shared.

I would assume that the common generic hardware components were chosen to
allow for the widest possible array of operating systems that could be
installed on the virtual machine and be functional with the fewest
conflicts. Although finding Server 2003 drivers for the emulated Sound
Blaster 16 was interesting.

John

 

[Bruce Chambers]

But that's my point. The "piece of hardware" rule was never in the
EULA.

Ah, but it was, at least until Vista.

From the WinNT OEM EULA:

The term "COMPUTER" as used herein shall mean the HARDWARE, if the
HARDWARE is a computer system, or the computer system with which the
HARDWARE operates, if the HARDWARE is a computer system component.

Snipped....

Single COMPUTER. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed with the
HARDWARE as a single integrated product. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT may only
be used with the HARDWARE as set forth in this EULA.

From the WinXP OEM EULA:

The term "COMPUTER" as used herein shall mean the HARDWARE, if
the HARDWARE is a single computer system, or shall mean the
computer system with which the HARDWARE operates, if the
HARDWARE is a computer system component.

Snipped....

* Software as a Component of the Computer - Snipped.... The
SOFTWARE is licensed with the HARDWARE as a single integrated product
and may only be used with the HARDWARE. If the SOFTWARE is not
accompanied by new HARDWARE, you may not use the SOFTWARE.


I don't have ready access to an OEM Vista license, so I'll concede that
it may very well now be different. But, up until Vista. OEM OS licenses
specifically stated that they were valid only when purchased with hardware.





--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:


http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Ah, but it was, at least until Vista.

From the WinNT OEM EULA:

The term "COMPUTER" as used herein shall mean the HARDWARE, if the
HARDWARE is a computer system, or the computer system with which the
HARDWARE operates, if the HARDWARE is a computer system component.

Snipped....

Single COMPUTER. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed with the
HARDWARE as a single integrated product. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT may only
be used with the HARDWARE as set forth in this EULA.

From the WinXP OEM EULA:

The term "COMPUTER" as used herein shall mean the HARDWARE, if
the HARDWARE is a single computer system, or shall mean the
computer system with which the HARDWARE operates, if the
HARDWARE is a computer system component.

Snipped....

* Software as a Component of the Computer - Snipped.... The
SOFTWARE is licensed with the HARDWARE as a single integrated product and
may only be used with the HARDWARE. If the SOFTWARE is not accompanied by
new HARDWARE, you may not use the SOFTWARE.


I don't have ready access to an OEM Vista license, so I'll concede that it
may very well now be different. But, up until Vista. OEM OS licenses
specifically stated that they were valid only when purchased with
hardware.





--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:


http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand
Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

The definition of "computer system" is now in the OEM (System Builder)
License as:

"1. Definitions. a. “Customer System†means a fully assembled computer
system that includes a CPU, a motherboard, a power supply, an internally
mounted NAND or revolving magnetic-based hard drive, and a case."

Part of the confusion about the "piece of hardware" is that the references
in the EULA to "hardware" never had anything to do with the MS requirement
that authorized OEM pack resellers had to include hardware. It was THAT
requirement on resellers that led to a compromise that allowed software
distributors like NewEgg to SELL OEM packs by including "hardware." That of
course led some end users to believe that as long as they PURCHASED an OEM
pack with a piece of hardware they could freely install it on a DIY machine.

But the authorized-reseller rules never applied to end users, just resellers
who provided product to mom and pop stores and consultants whose
requriements were too small to qualify for direct purchase from MS as a
partner through one of the distribution agreements.

The current sb license states clearly that the purchaser of an OEM pack is
not granted the right to use the software, only to install it using the OEM
Preinstallation Kit on a system for sale to a customer.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Timothy Daniels wrote:
:
[.............]
First and foremost, if the specific computer model in question was
designed specifically for Vista, there may well be no WinXP-specific
device drivers available to make the computer's diverse components
work properly. If this proves to be the case , installing WinXP in a
virtual machine would be your best option, anyway. Consult the
computer's manufacturer about the availability of device drivers....


Wouldn't even a virtual machine (running on Vista) require
XP device drivers for its guest XP OSes?


Perhaps, but not usually. The VM simulates very common, almost generic,
hardware components. It's almost a certainty that WinXP's installation CD
would contain everything needed.

How about a Dell Bluetooth mouse with 7 button modes, or a USB
all-in-one printer, or a Wi-Fi card? IOW, how well do these devices
work under drivers that simulate "common, almost generic" hardware?
Isn't it true that many devices work better with drivers made specifically
for them instead of the "generic" drivers? That certainly was true of my
Brother AIO laser printer - it worked with the XP generic printer driver,
but it lost a couple functions. I'd much rather have all the functions.

*TimDaniels*

In my experience, the devices work, but you DO lose functionality because the
guest OS can not see any of the physical devices on the host PC, it's a
totally emulated environment. The OS in the virtual machine wouldn'tt see the
Dell Bluetooth mouse, it would see a wired MicroSoft PS/2 mouse and VPC would
translate the basic PS/2 functions to/from the Dell mouse. I have a laptop
that has a Synaptics Touch Pad that has a Scroll function that doesn't work in
either a Windows 98 VM or Windows Server 2003 VM. I tried on a whim to
install the drivers for it, and only suceeded in losing ALL mouse
functionality in the VM's. I also succeeded in crashing the 98 VM when I
removed the drivers.

The guest OS also wouldn't see the Wi-Fi card, it would sees an Intel
21140-Based PCI Fast Ethernet Adapter and VPC would translate the basic
functions to/from the WiFi card. Since the VM doesn't have USB, the
all-in-one could only be accessed as a network or shared printer from the host
PC. It may just not be possible to emulate USB like everything else. You
might or might not get more functionality that way, depending on how much you
could normally get with it being networked or shared.

I would assume that the common generic hardware components were chosen to
allow for the widest possible array of operating systems that could be
installed on the virtual machine and be functional with the fewest conflicts.
Although finding Server 2003 drivers for the emulated Sound Blaster 16 was
interesting.

John

It sounds like a VM might come close to behaving like a real machine,
but only if you use "common denominator" type hardware devices. An
imagined scenario might be to use a VM in the early stages of development
to accommodate frequent crashes, but to move to a real machine as the
project progresses. What strikes me is the frequent recommendation in
these MS NGs to forget multi-booting and to just go to virtualization, as if
multi-booting had become obsolete. No consideration or cautions seem to
be given concerning the complete functionality of the available drivers.

*TimDaniels*

 

[John D. Sheridan]

It sounds like a VM might come close to behaving like a real machine,
but only if you use "common denominator" type hardware devices. An
imagined scenario might be to use a VM in the early stages of development
to accommodate frequent crashes, but to move to a real machine as the
project progresses.

Or send the VM to another department for further development. VM's can be
moved from one host PC to another, without the hassle of reinstallation.
They can be backed up by simply copy a few files. Big files, yes, but only
a few.

What strikes me is the frequent recommendation in
these MS NGs to forget multi-booting and to just go to virtualization, as
if
multi-booting had become obsolete. No consideration or cautions seem to
be given concerning the complete functionality of the available drivers.

Granted, "virtualization" is becoming a common buzzword, and it has it's
advantages. In my case I got into VPC because I have one app that simply
won't work on Vista. It requires 16-bit Windows or a 32-bit Windows with a
16-bit subsytem. The option to dual-boot to XP seemed too expensive both in
terms of money and hard drive space. The same would also be true for an XP
VM. For a dual boot, there would also have been the issue for finding XP
drivers for my laptop's hardware. An XP VM would have the advantage there.

For my VM I chose Windows 98, partially because I already owned a retail
copy (that isn't in use on any other machine) and partially because the
installation is smaller than XP. I would have used 95 but the 16-bit
subsystem of 98 has always seemed more stable to me. I couldn't dual boot
to Windows 98 because there aren't any 98 drivers for my laptop.

I'm going to set up another Win 98 machine for a coworker to be able to use
Cisco VPN on a 64-bit Vista machine. Cisco doesn't provide a VPN client
that runs on 64-bit Vista.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both virtualization and
multi-booting. Obviously, as you have pointed out, a VPC VM can't make use
of some features of higher-end mice or keyboards, or many other devices, or
anything USB. Dual or multi booting wins there. But with a VM switching
between different OS's is easier and faster, and virtualization allows you
to have several running at the same time instead of having to shut one down
to start another.

There are still some of the same problems with drivers, oddly enough. I set
up a Windows 2003 Server VM and an NT 4 Workstation VM, but of which had me
hunting down drivers for the SoundBlaster 16 emulated in VPC. So it isn't
perfect. But OS/2 Warp 4 was easier to set up on a VM than on a physical
machine. OS/2 networking is the devil's work.

John

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Or send the VM to another department for further development. VM's
can be moved from one host PC to another, without the hassle of
reinstallation. They can be backed up by simply copy a few files.
Big files, yes, but only a few.

Good point!

[......]
.... virtualization allows you to have several running at the same time
instead of having to shut one down to start another.

I realize you only mentioned switching between OSes, but have you
experienced timing problems when real machines talk to virtual machines
or when 2 virtual machines in the same real machine try to communicate
between each other?

*TimDaniels*

 

[John D. Sheridan]

I realize you only mentioned switching between OSes, but have you
experienced timing problems when real machines talk to virtual machines
or when 2 virtual machines in the same real machine try to communicate
between each other?

I don't do any interaction between VM's, and the only thing I do between the
host and a VM is with the "shared folder" when I want to install something
on one, so I haven't really been paying attention to anything like that. I
have experienced sound problems on the NT machine when trying to place MIDI
files, and video problems on a DOS machine trying to play Epic Pinball.
Both of those could be driver issues, or my host PC not having enough
horsepower.

John

 

[Mark Ramm - MS Licensing Evangelist]

But that's my point. The "piece of hardware" rule was never in the EULA. I
don't even think it was in the old system builder license either. It was
just a requirement MS placed on authorized resellers of OEM packs.

The purchasers of the OEM packs (the system builders) were never required to
purchase hardware with the packs and the rule did not concern end users at
all.

But some end users misinterpreted the whole thing so they could claim that
as long as they purchased OEM packs with a piece of hardware they could do
as they liked. It got so twisted MS revised the sb license.

All the EULA says is that the software is permanently assigned to the
licensed device and may not be transferred.

Hi All,

In part you both are correct from two different elements of the channel.

To clarify at the "customer" facing license point (as per original question)
the OEM License is to be sold with the minimum of the following pieces of
hardware (no longer able to sell just a peripheral or memory for example) -
Chassis, Power Supply and Motherboard - essentially a barebone PC or laptop
with intention of having the OEM license pre-installed.

With reference to the initial scenario about "swapping" software from
wifey's to hubby's laptops.. answer is no as per OEM EULA.

In this instance sure he can try and obtain a Retial Box version of XP (Good
Luck if you can find that still on the shelf)

The other two ways in which he can complianty install XP on his hardware is
as follows:-

1) If at the time of purchase of new laptop he had 90 days to purchase a
Vista Software Assurance license (must meet minimum of 5 Open Licenses to
commence an agreement) thus converting the OEM into an Open License/Volume
License (same same). Once in the Open Licensing space you can excercise
"Downgrade Rights" to Win 98SE if he really wanted to.

2) Work for a company that has a Volume Licensing agreement with Software
Assurance in place and can allow Home User Rights to the company loaded
software. Essentially all he would need to do is have the company purchase
the relevant version media kit for like $40 and take it home - referencing
company LAN (License Agreement Number).

Other than that you will not be compliant let alone have it install
correctly due to the BIOS lock.

Hope that helps everyone.

Mark Ramm