Will PC3200 RAM make a difference?

[George Macdonald]

For same-size DIMMs, the effect is the same of course. If you look up any
memory chip Data Sheets, you'll see that they commonly come in x8 and x16
data widths for desktop system DIMMs and x4 and x32 for other applications.

Thank you for all the info and details.

I have been searching to find how I can identify or recognize 'data
widths' for each DRAM stick. How can I tell if the stick is x8 or x16.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I hope I haven't caused more confusion than I wanted here... more
detail than you need. By stick, do you mean module?.... i.e. DIMM? They
are all 64-bits wide and the only *chips* you can populate them with in
Intel's desktop chipset specs are either all x8 or all x16 bits wide on any
given module. IOW you can count the chips per DIMM side and know the width
of the chips: 8 chips per side means each side (rank) has x8 wide chips.;
if there were only four chips on a side they'd have to be x16 wide chips.

In order for dual channel mode to work, some sources say the 'data
widths' must match, and some sources make no mention of this.

That makes sense. It's a pity that a few charlatans have dumped odd-ball
configurations on the market with all chips, on both sides of a DIMM, being
used to make up the 64-bit wide bus - IOW 8 chips on each side grouped as
16 chips which are each x4 bits wide. That's the one to avoid at all costs
- sometimes known as a "high density *module*"

I have searched the term 'DRAM bus width', and so far I can find no
practical informaltion.

Well, again, the DRAM channel bus width is always 64-bits wide - it's the
number of chips used to get there that's important. DRAM chip Data Sheets,
which you can download from www.micron.com contain much more info than you
need but a quick glance will illustrate the different chips available.

Did the extra DIMM you bought not work in dual-channel along with the
original DIMM which came with the system? While it's possible that it
could, to avoid possibly playing roulette again, the only way to be sure
spec-wise is to buy a couple of identically spec'd DIMMs from say
www.crucial.com where you can enter the mfr and model number of your system
and get a recommendation.

 

[dk_]

If I understand correctly, that for my purposes (i.e., to get two 512 MB
DIMMS to run in Dual Channel Mode), the follwoing will work...

I have two 512 MB PC3200 DIMMS, each are populated with #8 chips on each
side. I believe that is what you would refer to as x8 data width (which
is also #16 chips on each DIMM <<-->> #8 per side). Right? ...I hope so.

Hmm, I hope I haven't caused more confusion than I wanted here... more
detail than you need. By stick, do you mean module?.... i.e. DIMM? They

It has been confusing and challenging. x8 and #8 per side,

are all 64-bits wide and the only *chips* you can populate them with in

Does that mean 64-bits wide per side? (I am getting more and more
confused.)

Intel's desktop chipset specs are either all x8 or all x16 bits wide on any
given module. IOW you can count the chips per DIMM side and know the width
of the chips: 8 chips per side means each side (rank) has x8 wide chips.;
if there were only four chips on a side they'd have to be x16 wide chips.


That makes sense. It's a pity that a few charlatans have dumped odd-ball
configurations on the market with all chips, on both sides of a DIMM, being
used to make up the 64-bit wide bus - IOW 8 chips on each side grouped as
16 chips which are each x4 bits wide. That's the one to avoid at all costs
- sometimes known as a "high density *module*"

Huh? ...You just lost me here with the math. What would that DIMM look
like? (What does 8 chips one each side grouped as 16 chips mean???)

Well, again, the DRAM channel bus width is always 64-bits wide - it's the
number of chips used to get there that's important. DRAM chip Data Sheets,
which you can download from www.micron.com contain much more info than you
need but a quick glance will illustrate the different chips available.

I did look at a sheet from Micon which totally confused me.

The sheet:
"512 MB: x4, x8, x16 DDR SDRAM."

32 meg x4 x4 banks (...what are banks?)
16 meg x8 x4 banks
8 meg x16 x4 banks

Again, huh?

Did the extra DIMM you bought not work in dual-channel along with the
original DIMM which came with the system? While it's possible that it
could, to avoid possibly playing roulette again, the only way to be sure
spec-wise is to buy a couple of identically spec'd DIMMs from say
www.crucial.com where you can enter the mfr and model number of your system
and get a recommendation.

I did buy a pair, (but I returned the set). They were Mushkin, green
line. The chips looked very poorly made. There was absolutly no marking
or labeling on the chips. The look of the DIMMS made me nervous.

I then purchased one PNY 512 MB DIMM (that looks well manufactured). It
has #8 chips per side, (#16 total), which is the same physical
configuration as the DIMM that came with the machine.

The BIOS in my machine does not indicate anything about 'currently
running' in either dual or single channel mode. So I have no way to know
how the RAM is functioning other than having run the Memtest-86 test for
2 rounds with no errors.

How can I determine if the machine is running in dual-channel mode?

Intel's web site says, (for a number of specific m-boards), that in
order to run in 'dual-channel mode', the following is *not required*:

Do NOT need: same brand, same timing specs, or same DDR speed.

*Do* need same DRAM bus width (x8 or x16).
All either single-sided, or all dual sided.

Infineon and Kingston say "Matching" modules means:
Both (DIMMS) have the same number of chips and module sides, (e.g.
both have the same number of chips on the module, and both are either
single-sided or double sided.)

Thanks.

-Dennis

 

[George Macdonald]

If I understand correctly, that for my purposes (i.e., to get two 512 MB
DIMMS to run in Dual Channel Mode), the follwoing will work...

I have two 512 MB PC3200 DIMMS, each are populated with #8 chips on each
side. I believe that is what you would refer to as x8 data width (which
is also #16 chips on each DIMM <<-->> #8 per side). Right? ...I hope so.

Yes that's correct - probably the most common DIMM configuration

It has been confusing and challenging. x8 and #8 per side,



Does that mean 64-bits wide per side? (I am getting more and more
confused.)

Yes - think of *Dual* Inline Memory Module... what DIMM means, i.e. dual
sided.

Huh? ...You just lost me here with the math. What would that DIMM look
like? (What does 8 chips one each side grouped as 16 chips mean???)

Basically it means that there are DIMMs out there - of dubious origin -
where the "manufacturer" connects all 16 chips to only one side of the DIMM
- it's possible to do that with x4 wide memory chips but it violates the
formal DIMM specs. As long as you buy a reputable brand, you won't have
any risk of getting those.

I did look at a sheet from Micon which totally confused me.

The sheet:
"512 MB: x4, x8, x16 DDR SDRAM."

32 meg x4 x4 banks (...what are banks?)
16 meg x8 x4 banks
8 meg x16 x4 banks

Again, huh?

Yes - you can see the x4, x8 & x16 I've been talking about. The x4 chips
should not be used in unbuffered DIMMs for PC system memory.

Since the early days of SDRAM, all memory chips have had 4 banks, apart
from the first 16Mbit chips which had two. By keeping all four banks
"open" the chipset can manage "interleaved" accesses to the different banks
for a general speed-up of pseudo-random memory accesses.

I did buy a pair, (but I returned the set). They were Mushkin, green
line. The chips looked very poorly made. There was absolutly no marking
or labeling on the chips. The look of the DIMMS made me nervous.

Poorly made chips? How can you tell? It's becoming more common to see
DIMMs where the module mfr has obliterated the chip markings - counters
some of the prejudiced folklore on chip sources. Mushkin does have a good
reputation AFAIK.

I then purchased one PNY 512 MB DIMM (that looks well manufactured). It
has #8 chips per side, (#16 total), which is the same physical
configuration as the DIMM that came with the machine.

The BIOS in my machine does not indicate anything about 'currently
running' in either dual or single channel mode. So I have no way to know
how the RAM is functioning other than having run the Memtest-86 test for
2 rounds with no errors.

How can I determine if the machine is running in dual-channel mode?

On my AMD system I get a line in the BIOS startup screen which gives
current memory timings and a data width of 128-bit. I don't know about
your's or any Intel dual channel chipsets for that matter, since I've never
actually worked with one. You could try the Sandra benchmarking suite
which may give the effective memory channel width in one of its info
modules... and you should be able to see the difference in measured
bandwidth with its performance check.

Intel's web site says, (for a number of specific m-boards), that in
order to run in 'dual-channel mode', the following is *not required*:

Do NOT need: same brand, same timing specs, or same DDR speed.

*Do* need same DRAM bus width (x8 or x16).
All either single-sided, or all dual sided.

Infineon and Kingston say "Matching" modules means:
Both (DIMMS) have the same number of chips and module sides, (e.g.
both have the same number of chips on the module, and both are either
single-sided or double sided.)

Sounds like it should be working for you.

 

[dk_]

I did buy a pair, (but I returned the set). They were Mushkin, green
line. The chips looked very poorly made. There was absolutly no marking
or labeling on the chips. The look of the DIMMS made me nervous.

Poorly made chips? How can you tell? It's becoming more common to see
DIMMs where the module mfr has obliterated the chip markings - counters
some of the prejudiced folklore on chip sources. Mushkin does have a good
reputation AFAIK.[/QUOTE]


I'd bet that those poorly made chips that I returned, were low-end
Mushkin chips. Nothing looked well made, i.e., solder joints, the board,
no markings at all. The modules did not have a finished well
manufactured look. The chips just looked like poor craftsmanship.

The chips that I have now are, ...one that came with the machine, a
Micron DIMM, and the other is PNY. They look almost identical in every
detail. The boards are identical.

On my AMD system I get a line in the BIOS startup screen which gives
current memory timings and a data width of 128-bit. I don't know about
your's or any Intel dual channel chipsets for that matter, since I've never
actually worked with one. You could try the Sandra benchmarking suite
which may give the effective memory channel width in one of its info
modules... and you should be able to see the difference in measured
bandwidth with its performance check.

I downloaded the Sandra software, but haven't tried it yet.

My chips are both x8, according to support at HP and at Crucial, but I
am still confused (I got lost in all of my research) about how to know
that they are x8.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[traamu]

Hi,

On a different note, my PC which is 800MHz FSB had come with 512MB
DDR400 (PC3200) memory installed in it. I have 4GB PC2100 memory with
me. Can I install PC2100 into my 800MHz FSB machine?

Does more memory at less speed has any gain over higher speed, fewer
MB memory? Does it make sense to do this?

Thanks.

 

[dannysdailys]

quote- On a different note, my PC which is 800MHz FSB had come with
512MB DDR400 (PC3200) memory installed in it. I have 4GB PC2100
memory with me. Can I install PC2100 into my 800MHz FSB machine?
Does more memory at less speed has any gain over higher speed, fewer
MB memory? Does it make sense to do this? - end quote...

Yes and thanks: I had to look this up to see what my original post
was.

By the way, the guy who posted after me doesn't know the difference
between a dual channel memory controller and DDR RAM:

Dual channel is an Nvidia invention for the Northbridge chip. It can
take two, and ONLY two or multipiers of therein, and run each RAM
bank separately. When you hear dual channel matched RAM, that's what
they're talking about. If the motherboard has four RAM slots, they'll
be paired up to two discrete channels. That's why it's called dual
channel.

It's hyped as a 40 to 60% increase in RAM speed. (you may have read
that) In real terms, it's about a 7% increase in RAM performance at
best: It helps on board video and was created to make the Nvidia on
board video perform better then Intel. (trying to sell their chip
sets) So what? On board video sucks no matter who makes it. It has
it's place, but not on these boards... I hope... So, it's really not
a big deal. On board video, except in a very few exceptions, can be
replaced with a 20 dollar video card, or less. That's why it has no
place here.

DDR is Dual Data Rate RAM and supposedly can do "twice" as many
operations per cycle. One on the charge, and one on the discharge.
(in simple terms) In theory, it will give you "twice" the
performance of single rate RAM. In reality, more like 14% at best.
That's it! DDR is the defacto memory today and needs no special
treatment. Single rate memory won't even run. Matched sets don't
apply...

Now your question, and it's a good one:

Yes, you can try slower RAM, but the sizes you mention won't help
performance. 4 gigs of RAM, depending on what you do, won't help the
average, or even the un-average person.

The biggest jump in performance is from the 256meg level, to the 512
level. It's like a 30 -40% increase. From there on, performance
increases drops quite a bit. I think 512 - 1 gig is like 12%.

The only way a large amount of RAM would be needed, would be for a
large database that has many users. Such as medical insurance
records: Small files, but a million of them. And perhaps video
encoding, but I'd want to make side by side tests to tell for sure.

Other then that, a gig is perfect.

By the way, the new dual processors also increase the performace for
those very same data bases. They allow the computer to run for you,
while large data base querys are going on. Other then being online,
and running a virus check in the background, you probably won't
notice that difference either.

 

[George Macdonald]

Hi,

On a different note, my PC which is 800MHz FSB had come with 512MB
DDR400 (PC3200) memory installed in it. I have 4GB PC2100 memory with
me. Can I install PC2100 into my 800MHz FSB machine?

Does more memory at less speed has any gain over higher speed, fewer
MB memory? Does it make sense to do this?

If you were seriously constrained on memory, which shouldn't normally be
the case with 512MB, it might improve performance slightly but otherwise
it's a big loss because your DDR400 will run at DDR266... the speed of the
slow module. Certainly at the price of memory now, it makes no sense at
all to me.

 

[George Macdonald]

quote- On a different note, my PC which is 800MHz FSB had come with
512MB DDR400 (PC3200) memory installed in it. I have 4GB PC2100
memory with me. Can I install PC2100 into my 800MHz FSB machine?
Does more memory at less speed has any gain over higher speed, fewer
MB memory? Does it make sense to do this? - end quote...

Yes and thanks: I had to look this up to see what my original post
was.

By the way, the guy who posted after me doesn't know the difference
between a dual channel memory controller and DDR RAM:

That's rich coming from someone who doesn't know how to post.

Dual channel is an Nvidia invention for the Northbridge chip. It can
take two, and ONLY two or multipiers of therein, and run each RAM
bank separately. When you hear dual channel matched RAM, that's what
they're talking about. If the motherboard has four RAM slots, they'll
be paired up to two discrete channels. That's why it's called dual
channel.

I'm sure that Intel et.al. will be delighted to know that they are/have
been using an nVidia "invention" for the past 5 years or so.:-[]

 

[dannysdailys]

I'm sure that Intel et.al. will be delighted to know that the
are/hav
been using an nVidia "invention" for the past 5 years or so.:-[

--
Rgds, George Macdonald[/quote

Oh really, please show me a link to anywhere that is selling an Inte
Chipset, specifically with a dual channel memory controller. Exclud
dual processors, which only just came out. And don't include DDR, a
I already explained the difference between the two

Incidentally; everytime I try to quote, it quotes the whole thing.
I'd rather just copy and paste. I've never actually seen boards lik
these

 

[George Macdonald]

I'm sure that Intel et.al. will be delighted to know that they
are/have
been using an nVidia "invention" for the past 5 years or so.:-[]

Oh really, please show me a link to anywhere that is selling an Intel
Chipset, specifically with a dual channel memory controller. Exclude
dual processors, which only just came out. And don't include DDR, as
I already explained the difference between the two.[/QUOTE]

You can find umpteen "links" to chipset Data Sheets at Intel's Web site
which have dual channel memory controllers. If you insist on excluding
DDR-SDRAM controllers, there's the DRDRAM controllers such as i840 &
i850... though if you knew anything at all, you'd not be asking to exclude
DDR. Dual channel DDR-SDRAM controllers are in all Intel's recent chipsets
from servers down to desktops. Dual channel & DDR each works independently
of the other *BUT* the two technologies can be used at the same time<gasp>

Incidentally; everytime I try to quote, it quotes the whole thing.
I'd rather just copy and paste. I've never actually seen boards like
these.

This is not a "board" sunshine - it's Usenet. Just figure out how to use a
newsreader, with threads... and trim out any quoting which embarrasses you
from your previous posts:-[]... or, alternatively, go back to your
chatrooms and Web site err, boards.

 

[keith]

I'm sure that Intel et.al. will be delighted to know that they
are/have
been using an nVidia "invention" for the past 5 years or so.:-[]

Give it up, Black Knight. You lost your last leg ages ago.