Why MS Doesn't Listen To Themselves?

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Eric;
This link may be the best.
There used to be a better site but it seems to be gone.
https://support.microsoft.com/common/survey.aspx?scid=sw;en;1214&showpage=1&WS=Wish

You can also try the wish Email address you mentioned earlier.
Also if you see others having similar concerns, give them this information.

I may not agree with you, but I do want you to be able to send your opinion
to where it can count for something since the message may not get across to
Microsoft in these newsgroups.

Hope this helps...

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org
 
Eric said:
i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...

BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC
customers is unfair don't you agree?
Click to expand...


Public customers who test beta software are BETA TESTERS. Get it?
Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista
except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their
feedback mechanisms? (e-mail address removed)?
Click to expand...

They do via MSDN, Technet membership or invitation.
 
You still keep referring to your private BETA group and not the public
community.

duh beta testers can be drawn from the public. but what about the mass
leftovers? steal? yeh sure that's exactly what's happening... millions of
public customers have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta and I can firmly stand
here and tell you they do that because there is NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista
BEta, and this is their ONLY OPPORTUNITY to contribute to Vista.

I, have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta, get it? So, since I can't testdrive
this OS, I cannot give suggestions to the MS team on the acutal issues BEFORE
they lock the gates and say FEATURE COMPLETE.

you see, they have LOCKED THE GATES ALREADY. By the time it reaches the
NON-BETA, PUBLIC CUSTOMER'S HANDS, ALL their suggestions ARE SEVERELY reduced
in influence.

so there goes, what good is giving suggestions for April's CTP when any
suggestion I give IS going to be rejected, that they'll simply say "FEATURE
COMPLETE, NOW PI** OFF AND WAIT FOR WINDOWS VIENNA"

Now, do you see my point? Reply if you don't...
 
Eric said:
You still keep referring to your private BETA group and not the public
community.

duh beta testers can be drawn from the public. but what about the mass
leftovers? steal? yeh sure that's exactly what's happening... millions of
public customers have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta and I can firmly stand
here and tell you they do that because there is NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista
BEta, and this is their ONLY OPPORTUNITY to contribute to Vista.

I, have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Vista Beta, get it? So, since I can't testdrive
this OS, I cannot give suggestions to the MS team on the acutal issues BEFORE
they lock the gates and say FEATURE COMPLETE.

you see, they have LOCKED THE GATES ALREADY. By the time it reaches the
NON-BETA, PUBLIC CUSTOMER'S HANDS, ALL their suggestions ARE SEVERELY reduced
in influence.

so there goes, what good is giving suggestions for April's CTP when any
suggestion I give IS going to be rejected, that they'll simply say "FEATURE
COMPLETE, NOW PI** OFF AND WAIT FOR WINDOWS VIENNA"

Now, do you see my point? Reply if you don't...
Click to expand...

You are just whining because you've been left out.


Products can't wait forever for every single person to have feedback.
Did you provide feedback on your car, television, breakfast cerealm
shoes, ....?

Of course you've left it to nearly the last minute to complain, rather
than establishing yourself as someone a company would want to test-drive
their products. Based on your posts so far, including an admission
that you wouldn't be a GOOD beta-tester, then why carry on like this,
unless you're trolling???
 
There is a very major flaw in what you say.
There may in fact be those that feel the need to steal to get Vista in order
to contribute.
Now there are at least 2 problems:
1. Stolen from where?
What guarantee is there that these have not been corrupted by the
unauthorized distributor?
Those type of sources are often the source for corrupted data designed to
carry spyware viruses etc.
Any corruption taints the testing process.
2. Those who steal have already demonstrated questionable ethics and thus
anything they may contribute may be similarly unreliable.

If it was up to me (it is not), they would not be able to contribute at all
since their data is questionable and the team already has their hands full
without attempting to ferret out more bogus data. They are not
demonstrating the basic quality's necessary to contribute quality and useful
data.

You have really given reasons why some of these need to be excluded.
Also do not miss the part that MSDN and TechNet subscribers have had access
early enough to Longhorn/Vista make suggestions.
Including everyone who desires in the process is not possible since no one
including Microsoft has the resources to go through the surge of comments
such an open policy would allow.
Limitations on the number of Beta testers is the only practical solution.
When the Beta first started, there were complaints from those not invited.
Eventually many of those were invited, they just had to wait for the ramping
up process to get to them.
The group of Beta testers is not as elite as you seem to think. We might
all be surprised at the wide demographics represented worldwide.

There needs to be limits to any program.
Microsoft has set the limits.
No matter where the line is drawn, someone would feel it should be moved a
little more.
The group of Beta testers is not as elite as you seem to think.
 
OK I'm going to play nice with you, since I see this is not going to end. I
will *make* the compromise.

First, whether i am whinging or not is irrelevant. i am a loyal windows
customer and i would like every opportunity to help contribute and share
ideas.

second, of course the dev time can't wait forever for 100% population to
give comments on this... but what about "opportunity". I never said
compulsory commenting, but at least give volunatry commenting a chance for
people, like people like me. you mentioned cereal... there's a customer
feedback hotline that will give you the *chance* to improve the product. now
you might say ms has this too, but thing is... cereal can be updated, an OS
is usually fixed after release

Third, please do make make assumptions on my "good beta tester" thing. i
only said i never *claimed* the "good beta tester" title. just don't assume
things please.

and finally, i've contributing a lot on vista via (e-mail address removed) , i
am just trying to share my view on what a better company ms could be if they
can give *opportunities* for the general public to improve their products.
please don't take this an insult to any of the beta testers out there.

Now, i'm very sorry that i offended you in such a way that you find it
insultive... it sounds like a political debate here... and by the way...
isn't it a good thing to have *more* people contributing than just official
beta users, don't you agree? regards
 
hi

i agree those who steal vista should not be able to have say on the product
since they are unethical at first. but how about the majority of public
people who are "ethical" and didn't steal the product and have only access to
screenshots on the fan sites out there? I think that their only source of
idea where they can drawn improvement ideas from.

and sure capacity can be a problem, but with the size of microsoft and their
"suggestion message decoding" machine that scans the elements of the mass
suggestion mails, i'm sure ms can do a better job. but.... this should not be
an excuse for excluding the others. cereal bars (yes this again.....) from
Arnotts or Nestle or whatever have a customer feedback line, they don't set
restrictions like "first 300 customers only" like that... so why should a big
big company like ms would do so?

and sorry if i don't know this.. i don't know how the feedback mechanism is
for Vista, i don't know if you need a username and password before they
authenticate you're a *legal* Vista beta tester before they'll accept your
feedback, but that's MS's problem for that anyway

but i'm surprised you said beta testers are not as elite as they seem.
well... i honestly don't know anything about them... jsut hope MS can take
more suggestions from the other public sector before locking things in. you
see that my main problem.... locking the gates before public has the say...

ok... i guess at least we can agree on one this which is definitely
unfair... people who stole vista from bittorrent should not be able to
contribute unfairly....
 
One other thing.
Earlier you suggested you may not be a good Beta tester.
But from what I have seen, the Beta testers come from almost all experience
levels.
In my opinion, the only ones not qualified are the ones who always have to
call someone even for the most basic information.
So unless you fall into that category, do not sell yourself to short in the
future.
If I was making the choice (which I am not), I would try and have at least
several % that are really not experts but are comfortable enough to at least
install Windows from scratch and install all appropriate drivers.
 
Jupiter Jones said:
There is a very major flaw in what you say.
There may in fact be those that feel the need to steal to get Vista in
order to contribute.
Now there are at least 2 problems:
1. Stolen from where?
What guarantee is there that these have not been corrupted by the
unauthorized distributor?
Those type of sources are often the source for corrupted data designed to
carry spyware viruses etc.
Any corruption taints the testing process.
Click to expand...

Oh. Please.
Take a reality check when painting the Scene, and you'll see that all's Good
in the Hood ;)

Inspiration can come from the least likely of sources, and even a little can
go a very long way. Also, when looking to improve, it pays more to listen to
the group who tends to disagree with you than to those who just nod along
and play nice.
 
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