R
Ron Hunter
Speaking for myself. I am a Texan, and we believe in shooting first,Douglas said:
and being around to ask questions later.
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and being around to ask questions later.
R
Ron Hunter
And didn't they?measekite said:Ron said:Sounds like Ilford was scamming Sam's as well as the end user.SamSez said:Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
If I buy a Toyota from a Toyota dealer, then I buy from from
Walmart, I
expect to get a Toyota. It's labeled a Toyota, has the same window
sticker, etc.
I do not expect to get a Ford engine and cheaper seats for the
IDENTICALLY LABELED Toyota.
Ilford wrapped materially different paper inside the same wrapper as
what they use for their dealer stuff. That's just plain WRONG.
When you label them identically, the consumer has every expectation
that
the same stuff is inside.
did the wrappers look similar,
or were the product numbers the same?
many products come in multiple flavors for different buyers.
The FULL ENTIRE NINE WORD name is the same. The packaging is very
similar but
not identical, but as we all know, packaging is updated all the time.
I contend that if you are going to call it the same thing -- to that
level of
sameness -- it had better BE the same thing [try this trick with
prescription
drugs, I dare you...]
Go to the Sams Club website -- look up Ilford. Then open a second
window on
Ilford's website.
As Ilford only lists one "Ilford Galerie Professional Inkjet Photo
Range Smooth
Pearl Paper" and Sams Club only lists one "Ilford Galerie
Professional Inkjet
Photo Range Smooth Pearl Paper", what am I supposed to expect?
I can't see that. These stores provide the manufacturers with
specifications that lead into a contract. Big stores have departments
that inspect the goods and see that the products they buy do meet the
specifications they pay for. If Ilford was doing that kind of stuff
then I am sure they would intermittently short their own dealers and
sooner or later they would get caught.
Sam's stocks thousands of items, many of which change frequently. I
doubt they examine every shipment of every product to assure that
quality hasn't been compromised. They rely on customer complaints to
catch such things.
R
Ron Hunter
leo said:measekite said:Ron said:SamSez wrote:
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
If I buy a Toyota from a Toyota dealer, then I buy from from
Walmart, I
expect to get a Toyota. It's labeled a Toyota, has the same window
sticker, etc.
I do not expect to get a Ford engine and cheaper seats for the
IDENTICALLY LABELED Toyota.
Ilford wrapped materially different paper inside the same wrapper as
what they use for their dealer stuff. That's just plain WRONG.
When you label them identically, the consumer has every
expectation that
the same stuff is inside.
did the wrappers look similar,
or were the product numbers the same?
many products come in multiple flavors for different buyers.
The FULL ENTIRE NINE WORD name is the same. The packaging is very
similar but
not identical, but as we all know, packaging is updated all the time.
I contend that if you are going to call it the same thing -- to that
level of
sameness -- it had better BE the same thing [try this trick with
prescription
drugs, I dare you...]
Go to the Sams Club website -- look up Ilford. Then open a second
window on
Ilford's website.
As Ilford only lists one "Ilford Galerie Professional Inkjet Photo
Range Smooth
Pearl Paper" and Sams Club only lists one "Ilford Galerie
Professional Inkjet
Photo Range Smooth Pearl Paper", what am I supposed to expect?
Sounds like Ilford was scamming Sam's as well as the end user.
I can't see that. These stores provide the manufacturers with
specifications that lead into a contract. Big stores have departments
that inspect the goods and see that the products they buy do meet the
specifications they pay for. If Ilford was doing that kind of stuff
then I am sure they would intermittently short their own dealers and
sooner or later they would get caught.
Still Iiford should use a different name when they have that much
difference in materials. Like many mattress companies selling basically
the same mattress with different names and patterns. Ilford's liable to
make such a confusion. I seriously doubt Sams Club would care if it's
called something else as long as the big Ilford name is there. And most
people working there and shoppers don't know much about paper, unlike
us, the educated consumers.
Also, most customers wouldn't know the difference unless they has
purchased the product before any change.
S
Steve
Sorry Ron, but when the name on the box is ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL, what more can
you 'know' short of opening the package?
Out of curiosity have you looked carefully at the box for a product number you can
compare? Why a company with a known name like Ilford would allow an inferior product
to be sold with exactly the same name puzzles me somewhat. My cynical side figures
they know some people will get burned, but believe their bottom line will still
benefit from the extra sales to the budget crowd. Come to think of it, the rest of me
thinks that way nowadays, too.
I once bought 3 disposable cameras that had both the Fujifilm and Walmart brands on
the package intending to use them in an underwater camera housing that was supposed
to take Fujifilm disposables. Apparently the Walmart version was a slightly different
size, so the controls didn't quite work. I have no idea what else might have been
different, and I don't think the price was much different than any other place I
might have gone.
To their credit, Walmart refunded the price for all 3, even though I had managed a
couple of shots on one and opened all 3. Initially the manager of the camera
department said he couldn't accept them since he wouldn't be able to sell them, but
after a bit of bitching another manager told the returns desk help to step on them
and say they were broken when the customer opened them if need be. Since the counter
was under a sign that said something about 100% customer satisfaction I don't think
they had much choice about issuing a refund.
--
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.
If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.
R
Ron Hunter
I doubt that Wal-mart was complicit in this case, and the averageJer said:Ron said:Sounds like Ilford was scamming Sam's as well as the end user.SamSez said:Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
If I buy a Toyota from a Toyota dealer, then I buy from from
Walmart, I
expect to get a Toyota. It's labeled a Toyota, has the same window
sticker, etc.
I do not expect to get a Ford engine and cheaper seats for the
IDENTICALLY LABELED Toyota.
Ilford wrapped materially different paper inside the same wrapper as
what they use for their dealer stuff. That's just plain WRONG.
When you label them identically, the consumer has every expectation
that
the same stuff is inside.
did the wrappers look similar,
or were the product numbers the same?
many products come in multiple flavors for different buyers.
The FULL ENTIRE NINE WORD name is the same. The packaging is very
similar but
not identical, but as we all know, packaging is updated all the time.
I contend that if you are going to call it the same thing -- to that
level of
sameness -- it had better BE the same thing [try this trick with
prescription
drugs, I dare you...]
Go to the Sams Club website -- look up Ilford. Then open a second
window on
Ilford's website.
As Ilford only lists one "Ilford Galerie Professional Inkjet Photo
Range Smooth
Pearl Paper" and Sams Club only lists one "Ilford Galerie
Professional Inkjet
Photo Range Smooth Pearl Paper", what am I supposed to expect?
Considering that Walwart (Sam's) is notorious for flexing their discount
muscles with their suppliers, it seems that both could be complicit in
this deception. Walwart demands lesser quality (to force a lower price)
and Ilford complies because they're being courted by a retail discounter
with hundreds of stores full of bargain hunters and staffed by underpaid
wanks.
Wal-mart employee gets $9.96/hour, plus one of the best profit sharing
plans in the business. Don't feel too sorry for them. The charges of
underpayment are made by labor unions because Wal-Mart won't put up with
their extortion.
R
Ron Hunter
No, I wouldn't, and neither, I suspect did Sam's. It is not practicalSamSez said:Sorry Ron, but when the name on the box is ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL, what more can
you 'know' short of opening the package? If you bought a box of Kellogg's Corn
Flakes at a warehouse club, what would YOU expect to be inside -- seriously?
Something different than what you buy at Piggly-Wiggly? I doubt it.
to open every package they receive to verify that the supplier isn't
compromising quality or quantity. That's where customer feedback comes
in. I rather suspect Sam's would take action against a supplier who
didn't supply the product as agreed.
R
Ron Hunter
Probably not. But then if you take a job, you have to know thatMatt said:Do you get it if you work part-time? Because they try very hard to
ensure that their employees don't get enough hours to get health care,
so I wonder if they make it easier to get profit sharing.
part-time and full-time don't get the same benefits. ALL companies try
to manage their benefits packages to assure that their business makes a
profit and is still around to pay their employees NEXT year.
S
Steve
Ron said:I hate to tell you this, but Sam's doesn't make, or pack, the paper.
They specify the paper specs, and the supplier supplies them packaged as
specified, and at the agreed upon price. I seriously doubt Sam's even
examines actual shipped material to verify quality (they SHOULD).
So, who do you blame here?
Both of them. Sam's is to blame for selling a product with the same name whenthey've
specifically negotiated for a product with different specs. Ilford is to blame for
cooperating.
--
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.
If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.
S
Steve
leo said:I doubt the
purchasing people (and customers) in Sams' Club really know any
difference between different papper as long as it's from a brand name
manufacturer.
You really think the purchasing agents for the world's largest retailer don't know
exactly what they're ordering in million and multi-million dollar lots?
I don't doubt for a second that most of their customers don't know the difference.
--
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.
If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.
M
Matt Silberstein
Probably not. But then if you take a job, you have to know that
part-time and full-time don't get the same benefits. ALL companies try
to manage their benefits packages to assure that their business makes a
profit and is still around to pay their employees NEXT year.
Actually that is a bit deceptive. Quite a few companies do (or did at
least) try to ensure that their employees were around next year and
healthy and doing pretty well. Walmart certainly sells us the idea
that they treat their employees really well. But having policies that
ensure that they don't get health care is not treating them well. The
stockholders of a company are not the only stakeholders in that
company
--
Matt Silberstein
All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be
a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus,
there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the
end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce
or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing.
M
Matt Silberstein
Speaking for myself. I am a Texan, and we believe in shooting first,
and being around to ask questions later.
Funny, I thought that was the kind of idea we were crusading against.
My mistake.
--
Matt Silberstein
All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be
a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus,
there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the
end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce
or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing.
R
Rick Brandt
Ron Hunter said:to open every package they receive to verify that the supplier isn't
compromising quality or quantity. That's where customer feedback comes in. I
rather suspect Sam's would take action against a supplier who didn't supply
the product as agreed.
There was a documentary on CNN (I believe) recently that explored how Wal-Mart
conducts business with its suppliers. After watching that I can tell you that
it is almost a certainty that Ilford solicited Wal-Mart to sell their product
and offered a wholesale price for doing so after which Wal-Mart
"counter-offered" with "We will be glad to sell your product. Here is the
wholesale price that you _will_ sell it to us for."
This non-negotiable price that Wal-Mart specifies in a very high percentage of
cases forces the supplier to cut costs somewhere to make any profit at all and I
suspect that this is what Ilford did. I agree that a change in the
name/packaging would have been a better service to the final consumer.
S
SamSez
Out of curiosity have you looked carefully at the box for a product number you can
compare? Why a company with a known name like Ilford would allow an inferior product
to be sold with exactly the same name puzzles me somewhat. My cynical side figures
they know some people will get burned, but believe their bottom line will still
benefit from the extra sales to the budget crowd. Come to think of it, the rest of me
thinks that way nowadays, too.
I once bought 3 disposable cameras that had both the Fujifilm and Walmart brands on
the package intending to use them in an underwater camera housing that was supposed
to take Fujifilm disposables. Apparently the Walmart version was a slightly different
size, so the controls didn't quite work. I have no idea what else might have been
different, and I don't think the price was much different than any other place I
might have gone.
To their credit, Walmart refunded the price for all 3, even though I had managed a
couple of shots on one and opened all 3. Initially the manager of the camera
department said he couldn't accept them since he wouldn't be able to sell them, but
after a bit of bitching another manager told the returns desk help to step on them
and say they were broken when the customer opened them if need be. Since the counter
was under a sign that said something about 100% customer satisfaction I don't think
they had much choice about issuing a refund.
--
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.
If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.
Yes, if you have the two packages both in hand [unlikely in a store, and
impossible for the pack that I ordered over the web], the UPC numbers and other
code numbers are different on the packages -- but the UPC and code numbers on
Corn Flakes boxes are also often different between warehouse and retail due to
different sizing, combined packing, etc., and yet, this consumers' reasonable
expectation is that identical names means identical contents.
Yes, I'm sure that Sams will take the product back, though it will represent a
bit of a hassle, as the pearl pack was web order and the glossy pack was from a
retail location [and I'm not sure I even have the retail receipt any more]. But
that was not the point of my original post -- the point was to note to the good
readers of this group that the paper you buy from your local retail photo shop
is potentially a higher quality that what you might think you are getting when
you buy the identically labeled brand name product at a warehouse club -- at
least for this particular brand.
Recall too, one recent 'inkjet print longevity' thread in this very group was
based on prints made on paper bought at a warehouse club, so the value of what
we learned there is also in question.
And the bigger question remains -- does this experience apply to the several
other major name brands of named photo inkjet papers sold at all the various
warehouse clubs? I never thought so before, but now I'm not so sure. Anyone
from Kodak, HP, or Epson care to comment?
K
Kitt
measekite said:In Ilfords email they said the packaging was differenrt. However, if
the name was the same or very similar I agree with you on that. Walmart
is not a very nice company to work for. I seem many reports on their
practices. Customers do save money buy there are other places to save
and shop. Just look at all of the law suits against them.
Why does Microsoft get most of the attention from hackers? They're the
biggest target is why. They're no better or worse than any other
software maker. They just have more exposure. Same with Wal Mart.
How many "news exposes" have you seen on Target or Kmart? Yet if you
did, I feel pretty certain you'd find the same complaints. I know a
lot of people who work for other retail chains and Wal Mart is far
better than most as a place to work. Their legal woes get more press
because they have way more employees and way deeper pockets for the
legal leeches to dip into. Ask Food Lion or George Bush what it's like
to be attacked by "news" people with an agenda. I suggest that CNN
"documentaries" should be taken with a grain of salt. I've watched
that particular one twice and if you pay attention, you'll hear that
only a few of their disgruntled ex-employees and ex-vendors make the
accusations. Everybody else seems somewhere between ecstatic and
reasonably happy with Wal Mart and most of the accusations are flatly
denied or said to be greatly exaggerated.
R
Ron Hunter
Don't include me in that 'we'. Who IS 'we'?Matt said:Funny, I thought that was the kind of idea we were crusading against.
My mistake.
Can you imagine how the world would be different had all of Europe, and
the US, gotten together to kick Hitler out before he had invaded anyone
but Poland?
R
Ron Hunter
Rick said:There was a documentary on CNN (I believe) recently that explored how Wal-Mart
conducts business with its suppliers. After watching that I can tell you that
it is almost a certainty that Ilford solicited Wal-Mart to sell their product
and offered a wholesale price for doing so after which Wal-Mart
"counter-offered" with "We will be glad to sell your product. Here is the
wholesale price that you _will_ sell it to us for."
This non-negotiable price that Wal-Mart specifies in a very high percentage of
cases forces the supplier to cut costs somewhere to make any profit at all and I
suspect that this is what Ilford did. I agree that a change in the
name/packaging would have been a better service to the final consumer.
I sense that you think this Wal-Mart policy is wrong, but if it is, then
all large companies are doing the same wrong thing. Don't you think
that Sears/KMart doesn't do the same thing? Haven't you read how GM,
Chrysler, and Ford 'manage' their parts suppliers? It's called
controlling costs to make a profit.
R
Ron Hunter
I am sorry, but I can't see any reason to expect ANY company to provideMatt said:Actually that is a bit deceptive. Quite a few companies do (or did at
least) try to ensure that their employees were around next year and
healthy and doing pretty well. Walmart certainly sells us the idea
that they treat their employees really well. But having policies that
ensure that they don't get health care is not treating them well. The
stockholders of a company are not the only stakeholders in that
company
healthcare for its employees. In point of fact, MOST small companies
CAN'T if they hope to remain in business. It is pretty generous for any
company to provide healthcare for ANY of their employees. I am glad
they DO, but I can't see how this is any basic right.
R
Ron Hunter
I have bought several different types of Kodak paper at Sam's, and atSamSez said:Out of curiosity have you looked carefully at the box for a product number you
can
compare? Why a company with a known name like Ilford would allow an inferior
product
to be sold with exactly the same name puzzles me somewhat. My cynical side
figures
they know some people will get burned, but believe their bottom line will
still
benefit from the extra sales to the budget crowd. Come to think of it, the
rest of me
thinks that way nowadays, too.
I once bought 3 disposable cameras that had both the Fujifilm and Walmart
brands on
the package intending to use them in an underwater camera housing that was
supposed
to take Fujifilm disposables. Apparently the Walmart version was a slightly
different
size, so the controls didn't quite work. I have no idea what else might have
been
different, and I don't think the price was much different than any other place
I
might have gone.
To their credit, Walmart refunded the price for all 3, even though I had
managed a
couple of shots on one and opened all 3. Initially the manager of the camera
department said he couldn't accept them since he wouldn't be able to sell
them, but
after a bit of bitching another manager told the returns desk help to step on
them
and say they were broken when the customer opened them if need be. Since the
counter
was under a sign that said something about 100% customer satisfaction I don't
think
they had much choice about issuing a refund.
--
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.
If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.
Yes, if you have the two packages both in hand [unlikely in a store, and
impossible for the pack that I ordered over the web], the UPC numbers and other
code numbers are different on the packages -- but the UPC and code numbers on
Corn Flakes boxes are also often different between warehouse and retail due to
different sizing, combined packing, etc., and yet, this consumers' reasonable
expectation is that identical names means identical contents.
Yes, I'm sure that Sams will take the product back, though it will represent a
bit of a hassle, as the pearl pack was web order and the glossy pack was from a
retail location [and I'm not sure I even have the retail receipt any more]. But
that was not the point of my original post -- the point was to note to the good
readers of this group that the paper you buy from your local retail photo shop
is potentially a higher quality that what you might think you are getting when
you buy the identically labeled brand name product at a warehouse club -- at
least for this particular brand.
Recall too, one recent 'inkjet print longevity' thread in this very group was
based on prints made on paper bought at a warehouse club, so the value of what
we learned there is also in question.
And the bigger question remains -- does this experience apply to the several
other major name brands of named photo inkjet papers sold at all the various
warehouse clubs? I never thought so before, but now I'm not so sure. Anyone
from Kodak, HP, or Epson care to comment?
other places. Haven't noticed any difference in quality (and not much
in price, either), but I have noticed that my previous favorite for
making greeeting cards, the Kodak soft gloss glossy on both sides paper
is no longer available at Sam's. I guess Kodak refused to meet Sam's
price point.
R
Ron Hunter
Do you KNOW that they negotiated a different spec under the sameSteve said:Both of them. Sam's is to blame for selling a product with the same name
whenthey've specifically negotiated for a product with different specs.
Ilford is to blame for cooperating.
packaging? If so, please present that information to the FTC.
R
Ron Hunter
I am sure they know what they ordered. Now knowing what they GOT isSteve said:You really think the purchasing agents for the world's largest retailer
don't know exactly what they're ordering in million and multi-million
dollar lots?
I don't doubt for a second that most of their customers don't know the
difference.
another matter entirely. NO company has the personnel to inspect every
shipment of a product for quality, and suppliers KNOW that.
Example. I buy 'jumbo' eggs, because they are a better value, but in
almost EVERY PACK, I find at least one egg that is noticeably smaller
than all the others. So who is doing this? The store, other customers,
the packager?