Valid Product Keys for Windows XP SP2 Professional Volume License Edition

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Nina DiBoy said:
Gregg Hill wrote:


Not an applicable comparison. TVs are a physical item. A license is not
a physical item.

It does not have to be a physical item to be stolen. If I hack into your
bank account and transfer the balance to mine, I think you would be
outraged, in spite of the fact that no physical item was taken from you.



Again, not a realistic comparison. Retail theft does not equate to
preserving one's fair use rights.

Theft is theft. If you use something without the right to do so and against
the agreement which you acknowledged, it is an accurate comparison.

Yet again, not a realistic comparison. Murder does not equate to
preserving one's fair use rights.

The point was not to compare murder to what you claim to be "fair use"
rights. The point was that there does not have to be a law against something
to make it unethical, immoral, or stealing.





Does this negate the fact that it is unethical to infringe upon one's fair
use rights with a license to begin with?

Nope. You AGREED to the EULA. HONOR IT or sotop using the product. Stop
being a liar.

I said I don't agree to it in principle. I have not broken it.

But you stated you would, and at that time you would be an unethical thief.
 
And by clicking on the button, you are agreeing to the EULA. Read it again.

Once again, there need not be someone watching you do something wrong for it
still to be wrong.

I am quite well aware that the world is unethical in many ways. I am merely
pointing out that YOU are part of that world.

Gregg
 
I disagree with Bruce stating that the average consumer tolerates, condones,
etc, the unethical behavior of others. However, his comment that "If so very
many people weren't dishonest in such matters, software manufacturers
wouldn't feel the need to take such draconian measures to protect their
intellectual property. Blame the liars and thieves, not the businesses
trying to protect their own interests." is right on the money.

When terrorists try to blow up planes, we all pay for the inconvenience at
our airports. Who do we blame for that? The government for trying to protect
us, or the bastards who started it all? Microsoft is trying to protect
itself from pirates, and we all have to deal with it. Thank every unethical
person you know for that inconvenience, but stop blaming Microsoft.


Gregg

True if you don't agree with something that doesn't give you the right
to break a law to get around it, But it doesn't stop you from trying to
change it. On the same hand big business (especially American) has
gotten so greedy that they try and most of the time succeed in changing
the rules to their favor and bind up the consumer to where they have no
real choices. Case in point is the copy write and patent laws. They have
been stretched so far to big business's favor that the consumer has
fewer and fewer rights. The RIAA and large software companies amongst
others have gotten the laws leaning so far in their favor that they can
be some of the richest companies around an say they are going broke
because fair use rules are not right. Innovation is hindered by to tight
of copy write\patent rules. Notice I said to tight. Even Franklin,
Jefferson, Washington etc. did not believe these laws should be anywhere
near as tight as they are today.
That is why I am moving away from MS until they change. To get off the
M$ wagon.
 
big business (especially American) has
gotten so greedy that they try and most of the time succeed in changing
the rules to their favor and bind up the consumer to where they have no
real choices.

LOL, look at any business founded in China, Taiwan India, Russia, well,
just about any country, they are all the same when it comes to greed,
and every one of them is out to screw the customer out of as much as
they can get.
 
Gregg said:
Nina,

Read your EULA, the one to which you must agree before you use the software.
You have purchased the **right to use** ONE installation of the code on the
CD. You have NOT purchased the code itself.

Gregg

That may be true but US courts have stated that EULAs cannot abridge
first sale doctrine of fair use laws.
 
Nina said:
I don't see anything wrong with protecting my fair use rights and my
civil liberties. I'm sorry you see that as unethical.


I don't. It's just that your rationalisations, poor as they are, have
absolutely *nothing* to do with either fair use, as defined by law, or
your civil rights. Why not just admit that you have no ethics, and be
done with it?


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
arachnid said:
Some courts have ruled that no matter what the EULA says, you are indeed
purchasing the software and not just a license to use it. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sale_Doctrine

Not that it matters when Microsoft shows up with about a thousand
lawyers... :o(


Surely you don't seriously think Wikipedia is a valid reference for
anything, do you? Anyone can edit any article however they want;
there's no assurance anything there is correct or accurate.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
Gregg said:
Using that line of thinking, if I buy one TV from a store, then take 90 more
and give them to my friends without being paid anything for them, I am not
stealing. Interesting.

Your statement is incorrect and should read, "If one were making copies and
**distributing them** with the key without being a reseller **or under any
other circumstances,** that would be stealing." Anyone who uses it without a
vlaid license is in effect stealing it.

In principal, it is no different than walking into a computer store and
buying one XP package, then stuffing 30 more into a bag, walking out the
door, and giving them to anyone who wants one. You paid for one license, but
you took 30 others to distribute. Whether for profit or not, it is
unethical, even if it is not illegal.

Would you do that? Why not? The end result is the same. One was purchased,
the rest were stolen.

I think we are on the same line of thinking except you and MS want to
bundle all who want their fair use rights protected with pirates. Yes
pirates should be prosecuted.
 
The point was not to compare murder to what you claim to be "fair use"
rights. The point was that there does not have to be a law against something
to make it unethical, immoral, or stealing.

So the same point is it is wrong to steal the publics right to fair use
for reasons of greed. I sure hope my Dr. doesn't decide that I have to
die to stop my cold from being used by terrorists. Or am I now a
terrorist because I gave my cold to someone else?
 
Leythos said:
LOL, look at any business founded in China, Taiwan India, Russia, well,
just about any country, they are all the same when it comes to greed,
and every one of them is out to screw the customer out of as much as
they can get.

I don't dispute that but some US companies take it much further. What
other countries with the backing of their business try to control other
countries as much as US for the good of their economy?
 
Gregg Hill wrote:
But you MUST agree to the EULA to install and use the software. So
apperently, you are lying when you click to agree to it. Gee, you sure sound
ethical to me!

Now I'm a liar?!? You invalidate your side of the discussion when you
engage in ad-hominem attacks like this.
 
Bruce said:
Surely you don't seriously think Wikipedia is a valid reference for
anything, do you? Anyone can edit any article however they want;
there's no assurance anything there is correct or accurate.
Go to the court cases ,Such as MS and AT&T, that are going on right now
and see for yourself. Take a look at how they defend themselves.
 
Surely you don't seriously think Wikipedia is a valid reference for
anything, do you? Anyone can edit any article however they want; there's
no assurance anything there is correct or accurate.

Anyone can correct it, too. And did you see that study where it was
compared to the Encyclopedia Britannica for accuracy?

Study: Wikipedia as accurate as Britannica

http://news.com.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

Note also that Wikipedia will be included as a learning aid in the OLPC.
 
Gregg said:
It does not have to be a physical item to be stolen. If I hack into your
bank account and transfer the balance to mine, I think you would be
outraged, in spite of the fact that no physical item was taken from you.

Again, comparing apples to oranges. Stealing money is against the law.
A contract dispute is not against the law.

Theft is theft. If you use something without the right to do so and against
the agreement which you acknowledged, it is an accurate comparison.

I "acknowledged" the EULA, but did not agree to it. I wish MS would
acknowledge fair use rights and not infringe on them.

The point was not to compare murder to what you claim to be "fair use"
rights. The point was that there does not have to be a law against something
to make it unethical, immoral, or stealing.

But it's still not a realistic comparison.

Nope. You AGREED to the EULA. HONOR IT or sotop using the product. Stop
being a liar.

I have not once resorted to calling you names or insulting you. Who's
the ethical one now?

<snip>
 
Leythos said:
LOL, look at any business founded in China, Taiwan India, Russia, well,
just about any country, they are all the same when it comes to greed,
and every one of them is out to screw the customer out of as much as
they can get.

Not this one:

http://www.allofmp3.com/

And they are based in Russia.
 
So MS in arguing against AT&T says they should only be sued for the one
copy they made not all they copies made from the copy. Beside the point
that the coping was their intention. They also argue that the
patent/copywrite cannot have been broken because they are US and this
was done outside the US. Which point they lost in US courts on that
point in a past and fairly recent case. So lets call the kettle black.
 
And by clicking on the button, you are agreeing to the EULA. Read it
again.

No I'm not. Someone else says that by clicking on the button I'm agreeing
to the EULA. That doesn't make it so. They can say that by clicking the
button I'm agreeing that the sky is green with purple polka dots. That
doesn't make me a liar if I click the button, because I haven't lied to
anyone - there is nobody in the room to lie *to*. Neither have I agreed to
anyone. All I've done is click a virtual button on a computer screen.
Once again, there need not be someone watching you do something wrong for
it still to be wrong.

Abstract thought just isn't your forte?
 
Bruce said:
I don't. It's just that your rationalisations, poor as they are,
have absolutely *nothing* to do with either fair use, as defined by law,
or your civil rights. Why not just admit that you have no ethics, and
be done with it?

So it has nothing to do with fair use rights that any of this DRM crap
in the software could screw up and keep me from using software that I
have every right to use because I paid for it with my own money?!? It
doesn't infringe on my fair use rights that I have to make a paid tech
support call to MS support in order to figure out the problem and get it
fixed. It doesn't infringe on my fair use rights that the foreign
person at the other end of the line has such a thick accent that I can
hardly understand what they are saying while trying to get help? It
doesn't infringe on my fair use rights that I don't even get to see the
EULA before I spend all that money on the product because of the
post-shrink wrapped license scheme MS has going?

Right Bruce, right.
 
Gregg Hill wrote:


Now I'm a liar?!? You invalidate your side of the discussion when you
engage in ad-hominem attacks like this.

LOL! He can't even tell you who you supposedly lied to. Microsoft? They
don't even know you exist, let alone that you read (or did not read)
the text and clicked that button, so how can you be lying to Microsoft?

This is in fact the basis upon which some countries invalidate shrinkwrap
agreements, and I believe it's also the basis upon which the UCC
conflicts with - and may override - the DMCA. To be binding, a contract
must be agreed upon between two or more parties and each party has to be
aware of all the other's agreement to the contract. In other words, if you
sign a contract in the privacy of your own home and the other party to the
contract isn't aware that you signed it, then the contract isn't legally
binding. Now substutite "Click 'I Agree'" for "sign a contract".
 
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