Undeletable files on ext USB HDD

[Teflon]

Richard,

Thank you for an incredible work effort. I have been busy, reading
and trying. The good news, I haven't broken anything else. However,
the bad news is, I was not able to delete those ghost files and thus
free up the space. I have subsequently found file in other folders on
that HDD that can be seen, but can not be found to move or delete,
indicating a larger than suspected problem with that drive's file
system. Therefore, I've backed up those files that had no hard copy
source and will reformat the drive. In the process, I will partition
it into 5 - 50GB partitions as well, which should lessen the impact of
similar problems in the future. Any partition sizing suggestions
would be appreciated.

An update: I reformatted the drive, and after several failed attempts
to run CHKDSK, I figured out I was running the command from the wrong
directory. I was in G:\, the problem drive, and not C:\, therefore, I
kept getting a message that CHKDSK could not run - the drive was
busy. Of course it was busy, it was me trying to run CHKDSK. Once I
switched directories, it ran to completion. Found some bad sectors,
which I assume were causing the delete problem.

I am still a little confused by the conflicting comments relative to
partitioning, or not partitioning, a large ext HDD. I understand
partitioning an internal HDD to isolate the OS from data files makes
recovering / reinstalling the OS an easier task. I thought the same
would apply to an ext HDD, reduce the effort to recover the drive, in
case a corrupt file in one of the partitions required that partition
to be reformatted then restored. Thoughts, again?

Thanks to all who responded.

 

[Shenan Stanley]

Teflon wrote:

I am still a little confused by the conflicting comments relative to
partitioning, or not partitioning, a large ext HDD. I understand
partitioning an internal HDD to isolate the OS from data files makes
recovering / reinstalling the OS an easier task. I thought the same
would apply to an ext HDD, reduce the effort to recover the drive,
in case a corrupt file in one of the partitions required that
partition to be reformatted then restored. Thoughts, again?

Having multiple partitions will not help you recover data.

If you have multiple partitions and you store all of your data on the
secondary partition* then - if you mess up your c drive - you could
theoretically clear that partition and/or overwrite that partition with a
ghost image and all of your data would be safe on the secondary partition.
You did not _recover_ anything.

(*not usually true - unless you did some pre-work and moved your "Documents
and Settings" folder to the D drive during the initial install or use folder
redirection - although the latter is probably not available to most people.)

However - if in the more common scenarios - something infects/infests your
machine and/or the hard drive develops a physical issue - the second
partition provides no protection for your data. Yes - if you can use the
drive even - you may be able to clear that partition and/or overwrite that
partition without affecting the secondary - but chances are that if it is a
virus/infection - you would not want to reconnect that second partitioon -
as it would likely infest/infect you again and/o if you had a physical disk
error - likely both partitions are toasted.

Where it honestly *might* help is in making it simpler to implement the only
true protection for your data. That would be in the creation and usage of a
consistent/persistent/timely backup system. You could easily setup whatever
backup application/method you utilize to backup everything on that second
partition. However - the advantage there is only slight - as most people
don't find the extra few minutes it takes to select the files/folders they
really want to backup that difficult. Again - if you did not move your
"Documents and Settings" folder at installation time or with folder
redirection - it's likely you are missing some files if all you backup is
the entire secondary partition anyway.

I saw something the other day - something that looked like it might help the
people who get all confused about system backups...
http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/external/replica/

Might look into it.

 

[db]

windows by default
will create a single
partition to store
the system files,

hence it is called
the system partition.

however, you "never"
"ever" want to keep
personal data and
user files on the system
partition.

the system partition is
the target for all attacks.

that is why many makers
provide a secondary d
partition and why windows
includes partitioning
features with some of
their o.s.'s.

microsoft also provides
the feature to relocate
the "my documents"
off the system partition.

in regards to your external
drive,

you can have one partition
if you want.

however, it is silly to have
one 250 gig partition as
you have come to realize.

so you can repeat your
mistake or learn from
them and divide that
disk into smaller partitions.

my final comment is
that if you are unable
to run chkdsk on your
external drive,

then contact its maker
to find out why and what
are your options..

it would also be silly
to put any important
data onto an unreliable
disk.

incidentally, are you
providing external power
to the drive or simply using
you usb to power it?

--

db·´¯`·...¸><)))º>
DatabaseBen, Retired Professional
- Systems Analyst
- Database Developer
- Accountancy
- Veteran of the Armed Forces
- Microsoft Partner
- @hotmail.com
~~~~~~~~~~"share the nirvana" - dbZen

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

windows by default
will create a single
partition to store
the system files,

hence it is called
the system partition.

Logical as that may sound, it is *not* correct. It's just the opposite
of what you might expect, and is called the "Boot" partition. See:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314470/EN-US/

however, you "never"
"ever" want to keep
personal data and
user files on the system
partition.

That's your view. It's not mine at all.

 

[db]

thanks I am a very
logical person when
I'm not being illogical.

however, I believe it
behooves me to
disagree with you
on this one.

------------

perhaps, I must reiterate
a bit and add some clarity.

windows by default
will create a system
partition.

(I believe we agree
with the above.)

in doing so a boot
sector will be created.

then the default setup
will place the windows files
on the system partition but
in a boot volume.

perhaps, we can simply
refer to the boot volume
as the \windows folder.

however, circumventing
the default setup,

the boot volume can be
placed / installed in
partitions other than
the system partition.

(in my prior posting,
I was not inferring
a custom installation.)

perhaps, there are
semantics involved.

for all practical purposes
the gist of my prior posting
was regarding the inherent
design of malware to attack
the default system partition.

but it can also be said that
malware also targets
the boot volumes or the
\windows folder.

so I will amend my rule of thumb
to state that it is risky, illogical
and taboo to store any user
files on the system partition
"and" boot volumes.

your input is appreciated.

---------------

incidentally, do you also
know the differences between
tomatoes and tomahtoes?

one is used for making
ketchup and the other
is used for catsup.

one is used on american
fries and the other on
french fries.
--

db·´¯`·...¸><)))º>
DatabaseBen, Retired Professional
- Systems Analyst
- Database Developer
- Accountancy
- Veteran of the Armed Forces
- Microsoft Partner
- @hotmail.com
~~~~~~~~~~"share the nirvana" - dbZen

 

[Teflon]

perhaps, I must reiterate
a bit and add some clarity.

DB Ben, even a little more clarity, please.

windows by default
will create a system
partition.

I assume you are referring to the entire C: drive in the typical
vendor setup?

in doing so a boot
sector will be created.

then the default setup
will place the windows files
on the system partition but
in a boot volume.

perhaps, we can simply
refer to the boot volume
as the \windows folder.

however, circumventing
the default setup,

the boot volume can be
placed / installed in
partitions other than
the system partition.

How does one go about moving the 'boot volume' to another partition
without screwing something up? Would the setup look like this; C: -
System Partition and Installed Program files, D: - Boot Volume, and E:
- Data Files?

Sounds logical, would certainly isolate the OS from the viruses, etc.
that data files carry, but what about other malware threats? Could
anything get at the Boot Volume?

If this works, why doesn't everyone do this?

 

[db]

the boot volume
can be simply viewed
as the \windows folder.

moving it is as easy
as simply setting up
windows in a new
location or partition.

not to add complexity
to the above idea,

if your computer had
the additional option
to boot up via usb,
in addition to the hard
disk and disk drives.

you could install windows
to your external drive,
thus create a multi boot
system whereas you have
two boot volumes in
different locations.

one on the default location
like the c drive and the
other in a custom location
on your external drive.

though it is a novel thought
for your to consider and
practice your computer
skills,

your external drive has to
be proven reliable and
dependable first and if
your computer allows to
boot via usb.

------------

for the purposes of
resolving the issues
with your external drive

and not add complexity
to the task at hand,

you simply want to
stick with your original
plan to divide it in
manageable and more
efficient portions /
partitions to store your
user data.

while your add it you
may want to ensure
your hard drive has
at least one extra
partition in addition
to the c drive..

the rule of thumb is to
not store and comingle
your personal / user data
with the system files.

lastly, you can also upload
and store on microsoft's
skydrive,

25 gigs of user data for
free.

it is just another option
and place to store your
user data.
--

db·´¯`·...¸><)))º>
DatabaseBen, Retired Professional
- Systems Analyst
- Database Developer
- Accountancy
- Veteran of the Armed Forces
- Microsoft Partner
- @hotmail.com
~~~~~~~~~~"share the nirvana" - dbZen

 

[Richard]

An update: I reformatted the drive, and after several failed attempts
to run CHKDSK, I figured out I was running the command from the wrong
directory. I was in G:\, the problem drive, and not C:\, therefore, I
kept getting a message that CHKDSK could not run - the drive was
busy. Of course it was busy, it was me trying to run CHKDSK. Once I
switched directories, it ran to completion. Found some bad sectors,
which I assume were causing the delete problem.

OK, it sounds like the undeletable files finally got formatted into
oblivion. That's good. (Whew!

Did you do a full format or quick format that only erases data? The full
format should have found any bad sectors and excluded them, so the CHKDSK
after formatting should not have found any more, unless it is simply
reporting bad sectors that were already marked bad. I should have been more
clear about running the CHKDSK from the C: drive, rather than navigating to
G: first. Also, it should not be necessary to start in Safe Mode with
Command Prompt to run CHKDSK on an external drive, if you do a "CHKDSK /f
G:" or "CHKDSK /r G:" from the C:> prompt.

I am still a little confused by the conflicting comments relative to
partitioning, or not partitioning, a large ext HDD. I understand
partitioning an internal HDD to isolate the OS from data files makes
recovering / reinstalling the OS an easier task. I thought the same
would apply to an ext HDD, reduce the effort to recover the drive, in
case a corrupt file in one of the partitions required that partition
to be reformatted then restored. Thoughts, again?

Grin. Confusion is the middle name of all computer users. The replies by
Shenan, Ben and Ken all have good points, especially relating to your
internal drive and the fact that a backup copy in a separate partition of
the same drive is no security against physical drive failure. Of course
there are advantages and disadvantages with using partitions. One advantage
where a physical drive is divided into, say 5 partitions, 4 of which only
store archived data or have no data that is not regularly accessed, is that
both CHKDSK and DEFRAG run quicker on the smaller active partition. Keep in
mind that fragmented files that are not accessed have little or no effect on
anything. Also, if you only store archives in a partition, and don't delete
any, or other wise modify their size, but only add additional files, there
would be no fragmentation. For the time being, I would advise you to
continue with your "original plan" concerning partitioning your external
drive, and gather more facts before making changes to your internal drive.

To access Windows' built in Disk Management utility:
Start> [settings]Control Panel> Administrative Tools> Computer Management>
Storage> Disk Management
(or Start> Run> diskmgmt.msc)

Or, you might want to check out the FREE Home Edition of EASEUS Partition
Master. It includes file, disk and partition COPY backup options, and it
works with "laptops like Hp, Dell, etc."
http://www.partition-tool.com/personal.htm

The suggested partition sizes sound good. You first need to delete the whole
drive partition, and if you don't need all the space on the drive right
away, you can partition one or two 50GB partitions, and leave the rest
unallocated, and available for future expansion. You might later find a
reason for either a larger or smaller than 50GB partition size. Also, the
default cluster size (allocation unit) is 4K, but you can set other sizes,
for instance, on a partition that you only store text files that are less
than 2K, you would have less wasted space by setting the cluster size to 2K.
A 1.9K file in a 4K cluster has 2.1K wasted space.

Keep in mind also that after four 50GB partitions, the 5th partition will be
closer to 33GB, since a so-called "250GB" drive actually has about 233GB in
computer terms. People outside the computer world, and drive manufacturers
use Giga to mean a Billion in decimal terms. In computer terms, because a
"byte" is a binary term composed of 8 bits, (2 to the 8th power,)
likewise Gigabyte is binary 2 to the 30th power bytes, which is
1,073,741,824 bytes. My internal single partition "250GB" drive shows in
(C Properties as 233 GB, and in (msinfo32) System Information as 233.76GB,
with three different total byte counts:

Start> Programs> Accessories> System Tools> System Information
(or Start> Run> msinfo32)

System Information> Components> Storage> Drives
Size: 233.76GB (250,994,384,896 bytes)

System Information> Components> Storage> Disks
Size: 233.76 GB (250,994,419,200 bytes)
Partition Size: 233.76GB (250,994,386,944 bytes)
Partition Starting Offset: 32,256 bytes

250994419200 - 250994386944 = 32256
250994386944 - 250994384896 = 2048
32256 + 2048 = 34304 bytes unavailable

The 32256 is 1 whole track with 63 sectors with 512 bytes/sector that is not
included in the partition, and an extra 2048 bytes beyond the partition,
possibly due to the way partition boundaries are snapped to cylinders.

You can only have 4 primary partitions per disk, but 3 primary and 1
extended partition in which you can have numerous "logical" drives. You
might set up three 50GB primary partitions, and the remainder as an extended
partition. You can then designate any area of free space in the extended
partition as one or more logical drives. (In Start>Help, enter PARTITION in
the search box for a number of helpful topics.)

Since your original problem with "Undeletable files" was solved by
formatting, you might want to start a new message thread with a subject like
"Single or Multi-Partition drive advice needed", or whatever main question
you still have. There may be people that are not following this thread that
might take notice of a new thread and provide more helpful tips. Also,
before I can advise about partitioning your internal drive, I would need to
know what make and model of laptop, and particulars about the internal
drive, including capacity and free space.

Lastly, I didn't mention it before, because you needed to concentrate on the
delete problem, but in your very first message in this thread, I noticed
that you were running XP Pro SP2. You really need to upgrade to Service Pack
3, if possible, for its better security, if for no other reason.

Steps to take before you install Windows XP Service Pack 3
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/950717/
How to configure Windows XP to start in a clean boot state
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310353/
IEBlog IE and Windows XP Service Pack 3
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/05/05/ie-and-xpsp3.aspx
IE8 Tips, Caveats and Helpful Links
http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38848
Problems that are fixed in Service Pack 3 (LARGE web page)
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/946480/
Hard disk space requirements for Windows XP Service Pack 3
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/947311/
Application compatibility - Some third-party programs may experience a
change in functionality after you install Windows XP Service Pack 3
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/947309/

Also:
Microsoft Security - Help Prevent Identity Theft, Spyware & Viruses
http://www.microsoft.com/protect/default.mspx
Steps To Help Prevent Spyware
http://www.microsoft.com/protect/computer/spyware/prevent.mspx

Thanks to all who responded.

You're welcome. My thanks to everyone too. I've learned a lot.
(Triple-click here, to have a good year.
--Richard

 

[Teflon]

OK, it sounds like the undeletable files finally got formatted into
oblivion. That's good. (Whew!

Reloaded and back in action. Did not partition - may do it later -
it's a fairly static music data base that's now backed-up on DVD's.
However, several of the other Ext HDD's are still candidates for
partitioning.

Going to clone my OS to the 160GB 2.5" internal drive mounted in the
ext. enclosure. Will be reading up on how to do that via Ghost.
Wondering if all I have to do is swap the drives and the system will
find and boot from the new drive. Guess I'll find the answer by
reading.

Did you do a full format or quick format that only erases data?

I did a FULL format and then ran CHKDSK. That's when I noticed the
bad sector count. Nothing indicated after the FULL format. I then
ran Disk Redactor to write all 0's to the drive before reloading it.

The full format should have found any bad sectors and excluded them, so the CHKDSK
after formatting should not have found any more, unless it is simply
reporting bad sectors that were already marked bad. I should have been more
clear about running the CHKDSK from the C: drive, rather than navigating to
G: first. Also, it should not be necessary to start in Safe Mode with
Command Prompt to run CHKDSK on an external drive, if you do a "CHKDSK /f
G:" or "CHKDSK /r G:" from the C:> prompt.

NOW you tell me. LOL.

Since your original problem with "Undeletable files" was solved by
formatting, you might want to start a new message thread with a subject like
"Single or Multi-Partition drive advice needed", or whatever main question
you still have. There may be people that are not following this thread that
might take notice of a new thread and provide more helpful tips. Also,
before I can advise about partitioning your internal drive, I would need to
know what make and model of laptop, and particulars about the internal
drive, including capacity and free space.

I did start a new thread - 'Starting Over' - and have gotten some
good, but conflicting, advise on partitioning.

Lastly, I didn't mention it before, because you needed to concentrate on the
delete problem, but in your very first message in this thread, I noticed
that you were running XP Pro SP2. You really need to upgrade to Service Pack
3, if possible, for its better security, if for no other reason.

I installed SP3, after which, my printer on LPT1 would not stay
connected. Worked with MS Support, removed SP3, performed a lot of
stuff, never got the printer problem resolved. Finally gave up.
Haven't gotten around to reinstalling SP3. Need to do that, plus
IE8. Using FF, but it has problems with some financial websites.
Need IE to do routine banking.

Thanks again Richard.

 

[Teflon]

Richard wrote:

It's an R51 ThinkPad with a 40GB HD, 50% used by XP Pro and the
installed programs. Minimal amount of data stored there, other than
when when I'm working on some project, then I can use a gig or two,
but I primarily use an external drive for all data storage. I figured
there is no need to partition C:, just let the page file have all it
needs.

 

[marriealen]

My view

Oh i had the same problem,these files become stacked and are due to long paths,use the tool available at http://pathtoodeep.com ,it is a tool which deletes and also searches such undeleteable files and also assists in installation and sharing of long pathed files